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Message |
    
Daniel Stern
Member
Username: ph0ebus
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 4:29 am: | 
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Good day, all.
I read with some interest about three people who have, over the years, claimed to be survivors of the sinking of the Lusitania (i.e., Rosalie Altamore Bonsignore, Victor Hiertsford, and Deej Dot Maan) though they are not listed on the passenger list. What effort, if any, has been put out to either confirm or deny they are telling the truth?
Thanks,
ph0ebus |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 530
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 1:28 pm: |
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It's fairly easy to see they are frauds.
1. They are not on the official Cunard report
2. They are not shown re-entering the US
"So shockingly dumb his very presence numbs an entire country"
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12715
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 1:53 pm: |
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About the only way to be an "unofficial passenger" is to be a stowaway and I'm not aware of any having been found on the Lusitania. Records keeping was something that they were quite meticulous about because the customs and immigration authorities on both sides of the pond tended to get real cranky about if things weren't in order.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Daniel Stern
Member
Username: ph0ebus
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 2:34 pm: |
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Point taken...However, I find it interesting that at least one of them, Rosalie Altamore Bonsignore, is not only still living (in the US), but is still claiming she was on board the Lusinatia, even today:
http://www.antonnews.com/threevillagetimes/2006/03/24/news/
You would think if she were not telling the truth, she would have given up by now...and not told the same tale to her children and grandchildren. Maybe not...who is to say. Given Michael's point number two, she at least came back to the US at some point.
I should add two points to this discussion:
(1) Coming from a background of having done a fair amount of genealogical research, ship's manifests do sometimes have errors. Just in my own family's case, they got at least two or three key pieces of info wrong on the Manifest when they emigrated from the UK to her in the early 1900's.
(2) Official Records can be wrong as well. Have you read Shadow Divers? That is just one case, but I have come across a multitude of errors in 'official' government reports I have read over the years. I am doing some research on a particular u-boat at present, and in that case too, the official record (of the Royal Navy) is dead wrong.
Which brings us back to my original question: has anyone bothered to dig a little deeper, beyond the 'official' paper to try and sort out these stories? If you read the article in the link I included above, Rosalie claims to have been is close correspondance with the 'German fellow' who saved her during the sinking. Do we know who he is, and if he was on board? Has anyone bothered to ask him if he can prove she was on the ship?
-ph0ebus |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 532
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 3:01 pm: |
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It's pretty clear that Rosalie Altamore lifted some of Barbara McDermott's story and used it as her own. There were a few German first class male passengers who survived, but to my knowledge, none claimed to have saved her.
"So shockingly dumb his very presence numbs an entire country"
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12724
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 4:50 am: |
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>>You would think if she were not telling the truth, she would have given up by now...<<
The same could be said of the Anna Anderson, who insisted that she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia, and she held to that story to the day she died. Just goes to show that just because somebody sticks to the story up to the time that rigor mortis sets in doesn't make it true.
That doesn't mean that there were absolutely, positively, no undocumented passengers aboard the ship, but I would want to see evidence far more compelling then the claimant just saying so.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 7:47 am: |
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Hello Michael,
There were undocumented passengers aboard alright - especially in third class. Mike Poirier and I discussed this a long while back. I have/had a copy of the third class entertainments programme printed onboard on 6th May 1915 and several of the listed "Performers" do not appear on any Cunard manifest. If I recall correctly, it came from the Veals family, having been carried of the ship in a coat pocket. Unfortunately it's one of those items that simply disappears into a "Black Hole"(Alas, like my photograph of Stella Sage!) but hopefully it will turn up one day. I've never seen any real evidence of the presence of first or second class passengers though - other than the mistakes in the contemporary press.
Geoff |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2803
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 11:00 am: |
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>You would think if she were not telling the truth, she would have given up by now...
What might be happening here, to be charitible, is that the former Miss Altamore may well have been brought up believing that she WAS, in fact, a Lusitania survivor. In which case she would have no reason to give anything up. But, the similarities between her story and that of Barbara McDermott are, as Mike pointed out, disturbing.
It is just within the realm of the possible that she slipped through the cracks in 1915. One rather interesting case that highlights how....harried....things were, post disaster, is that of a passenger who Cunard classified as "Dead." A rumor reached them, a few months after the disaster that he was, in fact, alive and in Italy. But, inquiries in Paris and Queenstown showed no record of his having travelled to one from the other, and after exhaustive correspondence between various constabularies, embassies, and Cunard Queenstown, Liverpool, and NY, he was declared, ca. December 1915 as unquestionably dead. Then, from Cunard's office in Antofagosta came seemingly irrefutable evidence that the dead passenger was truly alive and well in Italy. At that point, someone at Cunard Liverpool came up with the brilliant and previously unexplored tactic of writing to the passenger's wife, who lived in the U.K. Within days it was confirmed that this man HAD survived and managed to travel from Queenstown to England, and then on to Italy via Paris without registering with a single authority and leaving not a trace- other than an extended newspaper interview that Cunard apparently never saw- that he survived. And so as late as January 1916 the matter of who lived and died on May 7th was still not entirely resolved.
That said, it is so far from probable that an entire family could slip through the cracks and leave no trace, that it is hardly worth mentioning. I suppose, if one wanted to be efficient, one could check the State census from June 1915 (They are held in mid-decade and not as easily accessible as the national ones) to see if the Altamore family was still settled in the US at that point.
Archival Theft- It's No Laughing Matter.
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12736
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 4:28 pm: |
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>>I have/had a copy of the third class entertainments programme printed onboard on 6th May 1915 and several of the listed "Performers" do not appear on any Cunard manifest.<<
Now that's interesting. Was Cunard in the habit of allowing this sort of thing or were these people in some sort of grey area like the musicians on the Titanic were?
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 7:46 pm: |
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Michael,
Cunard promoted such gatherings, probably because it not only kept the third class passengers out of trouble, but generated a healthy cash flow into the bar tills!
Crew members performed at many of the third class concerts as well as passengers.
Geoff |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 447
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 10:01 pm: |
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What gives this bizarre story an even eerier angle for me is that this woman is here on my own native Long Island. Anton News owns most of the small, local papers around here, none of which are known for great reporting.
I agree - not completely out of the realm of possibility that she's a survivor, but very, very, very, very unlikely. My theory - this woman's got herself believing it. It is true that she could have been fed misinformation about her own early life, but she mentions specific firsthand memories. The twisted thing is she's even got her offspring believing it, and is allowing them to risk embarrassing themselves by spreading it. My guess would be that some of the details of this woman's birth and background aren't so nice, causing explanations for severed family ties to be searched for, either in her own mind or by those bringing her up. |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 534
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 1:49 am: |
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For the past few years- they've been selling her signature on Ebay. When I sent some evidence that she was not on the Lusy- they sent snippy responses saying her interviews in the current newspapers were all they needed.
Thats why the book hasnt seen the light of day. Like the author, it has been back-burnered!
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12748
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 7:02 am: |
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>>Cunard promoted such gatherings, probably because it not only kept the third class passengers out of trouble, but generated a healthy cash flow into the bar tills!<<
Ahhhhhh....the money talks then! What I'm wondering is how they managed to get away with it. The immigration authorities couldn't have been all that sympathetic to this sort of thing.
>>When I sent some evidence that she was not on the Lusy- they sent snippy responses saying her interviews in the current newspapers were all they needed.<<
(shrug) That's eBay for you!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 10:55 am: |
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Hi all,
It is possible that some, or all of these claimants were on earlier Lusitania voyages, but I am very sceptical about their claims to have been on the final voyage.
It is possible that an individual adult might have slipped through undocumented, but a group, family, or lone child would have been almost impossible.
If they had been survivors, would they not have made claims, either through the Lusitania Relief Fund, or the U.S. Mixed Claims, Canadian Claims, or through the Cunard Company itself. I have trawled through the Cunard Records in Liverpool, and many other sources, and failed to find any mention of them.
I feel that there is only a very small chance that any of the afore-mentioned claimants were on board the final voyage, but maybe a search of records such as Ellis Island, or other records dealing with ship's passenger lists, immigration records, social security records, and so on might someday prove or disprove the claims of these people.
Regards,
Peter |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12775
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 4:38 pm: |
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>>If they had been survivors, would they not have made claims...<<
Not if they had been aboard the ship illegally or had some other reason to want to hide their presence aboard. Stowaways are not exactly anxious to advertise the fact that they're about. They're even less eager to do so if they want to enter a country illegally since the immigration authorities would take an unpleasant interest in them.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Darren Honeycutt
Member
Username: darrenscott
Post Number: 598
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 5:37 pm: |
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I am amazed at this story of the woman who claims to be a Lusitania survivor. Can her story not be proven and what is her explaination for not being on the passenger lists? Was her family's story not published in her local hometown newspaper in 1915? |
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1105
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:18 am: |
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Hi Darren,
I suppose that the original list wouldn't include those passengers transferred from the "Cameronia" at the last minute, nor would it list the few who purchased tickets on board.Like Peter, I've searched through the Cunard Archives many times and the only possibilities lie in the letters from relatives who wrote to Cunard to say that their friend/relation had "Told" them that they intended taking the 1st May crossing on the Lusitania. I know of only one instance where anyone bothered to follow up their letter to Cunard by writing to tell them that their "Missing" relative had, indeed, turned up.
What does perplex me however, is that darned third class entertainments programme which lists a number of people who do not appear on the official Cunard listings. These people must have sailed as the programmes would be printed the previous day - whilst the vessel was at sea.
I recall that Annie Frankum was listed as a "Star" performer, but can't remember who else.
It may be well worthwhile for me to move house in the hope I can find these missing papers in the process!!
Regards
Geoff |
Darren Honeycutt
Member
Username: darrenscott
Post Number: 599
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 5:30 pm: |
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Hi Geoff, hope you are doing well. Thanks for the explaination. I think most of all I was surprised that someone could possibly come forth at this late date and say they were a passenger aboard the Lusitania. Its great that Rosalie is in good health. Even if she isn't or it hasn't been proven that she was a passenger, she is keeping the story of the Lusitania alive for future generations. |
Darren Honeycutt
Member
Username: darrenscott
Post Number: 600
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 5:40 pm: |
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I was doing a google search on Mrs. Bonsignore and it seems that someone needs to tell her that she has some unclaimed money coming to her if its the same Rosalie Bonsignore from New York state. |
Bruce Tompkins
Member
Username: cuzinbrucee
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 3:39 am: |
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Hello to all, I met Barbara Anderson McDermott in 2000 and again in 2001 at TIS conventions as their guest-of-honor. She was relatively sharp then, quite charming, and would gladly sign
anything. I understand that now she is blind or nearly so and quite feeble and therefore cannot sign anything. Does anyone out there know how she is doing, and how many known survivors of the Lusitania sinking are still alive? I understand that unlike Titanic survivors, the Lusitania survivors were not a tight-knit group and were reluctant to talk about their experiences. I feel particularly sad as I accidentally threw away her file (which contained letters that she had written to me) when my wife and I moved from the east coast to the west coast of the USA. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Bruce wsl1869@aol.com |
Bruce Tompkins
Member
Username: cuzinbrucee
Post Number: 16
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 3:45 am: |
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What is the story of Rosalie Altamore Bonsignore?
Has she apparently deluded herself into assuming that she was a survivor of the Lusitania sinking
(there were also so-called Titanic survivors like that)? Has anyone ever gotten hard evidence or has anyone ever talked to her about this? I could not find her name on any official record of passengers or crew of the ill-fated voyage? Thanks |
Bruce Tompkins
Member
Username: cuzinbrucee
Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 3:49 am: |
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I hear stories from time to time that Winston Churchill, a rising star in the British Admiralty,
knew that the Lusitania was being hunted by U-20 and yet let the ship be sunk thinking that it would draw the US into the "Great War". Of course, the US maintained its neutrality and it was the sinking of the Arabic that really turned the tide in favor of US entry into the war. |
Bruce Tompkins
Member
Username: cuzinbrucee
Post Number: 18
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 3:53 am: |
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Does anyone out there have letters from Barbara Anderson McDermott that could be copied and sent to me? I mistakenly threw out a file that contained several letters which she had written to me when my wife and I moved in 2006. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 16211
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 3:54 am: |
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>>I hear stories from time to time that Winston Churchill, a rising star in the British Admiralty,
knew that the Lusitania was being hunted by U-20 <<
Too bad the U-20 didn't know they were hunting the Lusitania. It's details like that which are the reason why otherwise convincing grand conspiracy theories fall apart under close examination. Such theories presume the co-operation of at least one or more parties who have no reason to go along with the game, and who aren't even a party to the plot!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 72
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 1:29 am: |
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Hi Bruce,
Asked the same question about Rosalie myself and believe that she was not on board the final voyage of the Lusitania. All of the children that survived were well documented and she does not fit the profile of any. At no stage have I read anything which would have me believe she was a passenger, including newspaper interviews she has given. Rosalie and/or her family may have arrived in America on the Lusitania, but I am convinced they were not on the final voyage. Why she claims to be a survivor is a question I would like to ask her myself, if the opportunity ever arises.
Peter |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 262
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 4:31 pm: |
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Would it not be simple to fake the story of surviving a tragic shipwreck? I mean look at all the things people fake in today's world.
If the lady got her names dates and places right, she could have well have been on any shipwreck she pleased.
Don't get me wrong, i don't wish to sound rude,
but i tend to go with listed information on passengers or track records of them, not just word of mouth.
Does this women have any physical proof she was on the ship,
like has any past family members declared her story as true? And maybe there is a Ellis Island record of her entering USA? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 17033
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 5:31 pm: |
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>>Would it not be simple to fake the story of surviving a tragic shipwreck?<<
Yes. People did it all the time, and even today, there are a number of people who advance claims on behalf of reletives.
However, making the claim is one thing, substantiating it is quite another. While the records keeping back in that day and age was far from perfect, it tended to be pretty meticulous so if somebody was aboard a given vessel, it's not that hard to check passenger manifests, immigration records, and crew sign on lists.
That much said, the point where "Unofficial Survivors" comes into play is when you have the possibility of stowaways and those who travel under assumed names. Such people don't like to call a lot of attention to their presence, especially if they're there illegally. Most of the time, the ship makes port and they vanish into the woodwork with few people caring except maybe the police.
It's when the ship comes to grief that this can bite.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3987
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 6:08 pm: |
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Working against successfully passing yourself off as a Lusitania survivor, at this point, is that there are very few survivors you COULD be. Of those between infant and age 10 (who could CONCEIVABLY still be alive) all but one or two are proveably dead at this point. SO, you'd have to pick a survivor that NONE of the researchers out there have found (and how would you know who that was?) and learn enough about that person to be convincing.
Twenty-five years ago, your best bet to pass yourself off as a survivor would have been to select one of the third class passengers who was returning home to Persia (Iran)or Russia (U.S.S.R.), neither location being conducive to follow-up research. However, none of those passengers could possibly still be living, so that fraudulent boat has sailed, so to speak.
But, there are a number of fraudulent historical figures out there. Reporters doing "Anniversary" stories, aka History Lite Puff Pieces, have neither the time nor inclination to do the kind of digging needed to prove or disprove a person's claims~ the number of "children' who now claim to have seen the assasination attempt of Roosevelt (at which Mayor Cermak of Chicago WAS killed)is now so large that it suggests Roosevelt was fired upon during a visit to Children's Village, but in the end a quote from an old person who PROBABLY was not there does not really hurt anything.
Where it DOES hurt is on the occasions when the fraud goes deeper than a puff piece printed on an anniversary. Taking money from novice researchers, lazy documentarians, and young history buffs whoa re not yet jaded is fraud, no matter how one looks at it, and no matter how minor the sums involved are.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Joyce Baxter
Member
Username: joyceanne
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 2:23 am: |
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>Which brings us back to my original question: has anyone bothered to dig a little deeper, beyond the 'official' paper to try and sort out these stories? If you read the article in the link I included above, Rosalie claims to have been is close correspondance with the 'German fellow' who saved her during the sinking. Do we know who he is, and if he was on board? Has anyone bothered to ask him if he can prove she was on the ship?<
Well I must say Rosalie is my great Grandmother and i have never heard of her being in "close correspondance" with the man who saved her life nor have i heard of her having any memories of what happend. My Grandmother her daughter has heard it not only from her but from her father and quite a few family members in Italy.
>The twisted thing is she's even got her offspring believing it, and is allowing them to risk embarrassing themselves by spreading it. My guess would be that some of the details of this woman's birth and background aren't so nice, causing explanations for severed family ties to be searched for, either in her own mind or by those bringing her up.<
Now in response to this post even if by some highly unlikely chance she isn't telling the truth i will never be emarressed by what my Great grandmother has told me and I doubt any of my other family members will. Also she had a great up bringing her Grandmother raised her for most of her life in Italy her father would send money cloths and gifts for her she came back to the U.S. when she was either 12 or 13 to live with her father and later had a beautiful family. |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 713
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 10:42 am: |
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Hi Joyce,
Myself, Jim Kalafus, Peter Kelly, Cliff Barry, Geoff Whitfield and others have been researching the Lusitania for many years. We have all done research on both sides of the ocean. With all the information your great-grandmother has given, there is absolutely no way she was on the Lusitania. She and her mother are not on the passenger list; they are not mentioned in any local or national newspaper; they are not mentioned in any Cunard correspondence; they are not mentioned in monetary claims;
If she did survive a shipwreck, it was not Lusitania. Keep in mind, there were so many passenger ships sunk betweent 1915-1918. She could have been so young that she would not know. And if her mother really did die shortly thereafter, the family legend could have been that it was the Lusitania. There was a woman who believed she was a survivor of the Titanic, but she was an infant at the time. Well, it turns out she most likely survived the Volturno, a year later.
If I were you, before she tells the story again to the public, I would research where she stayed in England shortly after the sinking and where she lived in England to see if there is any newspaper coverage of her. I would also look within your family to see exactly when she started telling the story. Did she tell her children when she was growing up? Is this a late in life thing? Get the death certificate for her mother and and perhaps the obituary. That would be another clue.
Good luck in your search.
Sitting on stuff is called, 'squatty toad syndrome'.
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