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Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 556
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 9:35 pm: | 
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Jim that is quite a post.
As to the Nigerian problem; I don't even open them anymore. They just get marked as spam and ausradiert.
The Portside boat sequence is interesting but one thing is missing: the speed of the ship. Isn't this why Turner delayed dropping the port boats? But then wasn't this instruction for the starboard boats as well? hmmm. [scratches head]
"No Sir, We just hit the cruiser"
helmsman on Queen Mary
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1571
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 10:30 pm: |
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We need an article that states in simple terms what went on with the lowering of the lifeboats. I've heard so many accounts of what went on I don't know what to believe. Another thing is unlike the Titanic a lot of people weren't called to the Lusitania inquiry in Britain because they were being very selective about what evidence they wanted to hear because they, Britain were at War with Germany and had their own axe to grind in regards to the Lusitania and her demise.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 10:36 pm: |
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quote:Take Mr. Tijou, for instance. His son was playing on Deck, and he, Mr. Tijou spent all of what remained of the ship's life running around calling out to his son, until the ship sank from under him. People who SHOULD have been focusing on "how do we best get out of here?" were instead focused on the unspeakable horror of having one's children missing on a sinking ship. Knowing where to go would have reduced that- particularly in the cases of the older children.
That could all to easily be me.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3981
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 11:06 pm: |
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It is hard to figure out WHY the port boats were unloaded and no "official" order to commence launching again ever issued, while on the starboard side the haphazard launching continued.
I know that two port boats were lost early in the sequence of events- neither of which had anything to do with the ship's speed. In the easier of the two mishaps to document, Ogden Hammond watched a lowering rope "get away from" its handlers, dropping the end of the boat and hurling out its occupants~ Ogden survived because he had a split second advantage over those who did not see the mishap in the making, and grabbed a rope as the boat dropped out from under him. After the loss of the two boats an order was "called down" from the bridge to cease lowering, and a "fat" member of the crew who was not an officer came along the deck ordering the passengers out of the already loaded boats. At the very end, #14 WAS lowered, but was swamped and then capsized as the ship sank beside it.
A VERY sad note is that an unknown number of passengers, including the entire Frankum family, (of whom only two survived) Joseph Meyers, Francis Kellett, and an unnamed mother and son who persuaded Kellett and Meyers to follow them, climbed into the port boats in the last minutes. Meyers survived with a broken arm, broken ribs, and a ruptured abdomen~ apparently the dynamics of being pulled down in a lifeboat by a sinking ship are very violent.
I'm not confident that ANY speed remained for a substantial period of time after the explosions.
I'll also venture an educated guess that the debacle of the port boats' non escape was just another example of the deplorable slackness aboard the liner that afternoon. One must erase from one's mental picture of the disaster the stories, told by aging crewmen in the 1950s, of heroic officers "struggling" to push boats uphill against the list until the very end, surrounded by demoralised passengers... the scene was, apparently, one in which a bunch of frightened people stood around waiting for orders that never came, during an 8 minute or so period when the list was minimal.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3982
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 11:23 pm: |
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>That could all too easily be me.
Or you could have ended up like Cyril and Anita Pells, who for want of any direction, and not knowing what to do, sat down in chairs with their infant and sank with the ship. They survived, but the current yanked their infant away from Mr. Pells while they were still underwater.
~Or, Mrs. Gray, who held hands with her son and Mrs. Turpin and stepped into the wave together as it rolled over the starboard side of the boat deck.(Mrs. Turpin survived)
~ Or Mr. Richards, who had to decide which of his struggling sons to swim to, and let the other wash away, as the wave carried them away from the starboard side of the second class deckhouse.
~ or Mrs. Bretherton who, unknowingly, sacrificed one of her children to save the other.
~ Or, Mrs. Pye who wrote to Mrs Prichard that since losing her daughter her life no longer had any meaning.
~ Or, Mrs. Adams who watched her daughter fade away from shock.
But, sad to say that, statistically, as a parent you probably would not have survived nor would have your child.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1575
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 11:43 pm: |
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quote:But, sad to say that, statistically, as a parent you probably would not have survived nor would have your child.
I probably give up and drown. My life without my daughter would no longer have any meaning.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 17012
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 6:08 am: |
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>>A four-point bearing takes 45 minutes where a cross-bearing would of only taken 3 minutes. Leaving him open to be torpedoed.<<
It was worse then that. The ship steered a course near the headlands in spite of orders not to, even though it was known by now that hostile submarines were operating there, and there was no attempt at zigzagging. When you go right where the Bad Guys are and keep a straight course, that makes working up a viable firing solution child's play.
Captain Turner might as well have hung a sign from the ship saying "Here I am, I'm easy, sink me!"
Add to that the incidental fact that the lifeboat drill was little more then a pro forma dog and pony show where they didn't even bother mustering the passengers.
They might have had a plan, but they didn't have a clue!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1582
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 6:16 am: |
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True Michael,
The Lusitania did seem to sail right into the line of fire and say "You hoo over here, shoot me if you can." Folks wonder where these conspiracies come from about Britain wanting the Lusitania to get torpedoed so America would be forced to enter the war. Here's your answer Folks no conspiracies just sloppy seamanship.
quote:They might have had a plan, but they didn't have a clue!
 What where they thinking at that. Their idea for the Lifeboat Drill was this.
The lifeboat Drill was always conducted with the same crew men with the same lifeboat. Usually they would lower the same lifeboat to the water if even that and then bring it back up and tie it in. At least they held a drill even if it was a poor one. Tricks are for kids not Seamen.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 505
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 9:31 am: |
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Thank you, Jim, for your response to my queries of yesterday afternoon. Fascinating to know that my long-held preconceptions about unbridled chaos unfolding on the decks of the sinking 'Lusitania' are not wholly, or even partially, grounded in fact. In light of your explanation, what I DO now appreciate is just how great an opportunity to get as many people as possible safely off that ship was lost through nothing more than a lack of basic organisation. Which makes the human cost seem even more tragic and futile (if that were possible). I'm thinking of your post of 11.23PM above. The elements of 'Sophie's Choice' involved here defy my comprehension. I'm haunted by the testimony of Gertrude Adams - although I suppose her story was no worse than many...
One thing I did wonder as I was ironing my shirt this morning (such are the tracks my mind runs along at 7.45AM...) - could Captain Turner have mustered ALL his passengers and ALL his crew as the ship neared the Irish coast and ordered them to wear their life-jackets (properly fitted) until they reached port? I've no doubt that many individuals would have kicked up one hell of a stink at the sheer awkwardness and inconvenience but SURELY, when the not wholly unexpected torpedo struck, and entry into the water became inevitable, such a measure would have saved SOME lives? |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3985
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 4:26 pm: |
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>One thing I did wonder as I was ironing my shirt this morning (such are the tracks my mind runs along at 7.45AM...)
Scary the way the mind works, isn't it! I rolled out of bed yesterday, with this horror I'd not thought of in 18 years bouncing around in my head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XRoa8C8VbA
>although I suppose her story was no worse than many...
One of the most over-quoted of all accounts (which is why we've avoided it) contains a line that, for some reason, is always omitted in which the survivor seems to admit to defecating on himself in fear. Dont get much worse than that, friend. Oh god...I'm talking like a morning TV show host...
Yes, your lifebelt idea would have been a brilliant solution and, no, I don't see that people would have kicked up a fuss. Another theme in letters written May 8/9/10, that came up again at the Liabilities hearings was that people were extremely apprehensive on the morning of May 7th. At that point, I have no reason to doubt that a general assembly in all three classes in which an officer addressed the need for the lifebelts in a firm but not frightening manner, would have been well received. Continuing with the non-newspaper accounts from May 8,9,10...etc accounts, nearly everyone agreed that the day was so beautiful, and so 'normal' that by afternoon their guards were down~ with the soon to be tragic result that people were carrying on as normal, with children scattered about the ship, husbands and wives socialising in different public rooms. People still aware of the threat (when the explosions came there was no sudden panic, but dozens of accounts mention others rising from their chairs and saying "They've done it!" or something similar) but the casual air of the day insured that they were not as prepared as they MIGHT have been.
What makes researching the Lusitania refreshing is that although much of the same drivel that surrounded (and surrounds) the Titanic was churned forth by the press (brave officers/battled overwhelming odds/ surrounded by panicked women and children/and foreigners/ who nevertheless did the best they could) with the addition of wartime propaganda blather, it is possible to find MANY accounts that paint a true picture. The survivors had access to pen and paper within hours of the event, and had the ability to churn forth VERY detailed and VERY angry letters about what happened, before they had time to think about what they were saying. Miss Maycock, for instance, wrote that the men were "wonderful" and then corrected herself and said that the male PASSENGERS were wonderful, while the officers and crew were worse than inept.
Another random thought- given that a large number of people survived by climbing atop collapsibles that washed off of the ship as she sank, perhaps something could have been done to insure that more of the 48 collapsibles washed free as the boat deck submerged.
>preconceptions about unbridled chaos
One of the detailsd I've noted, time and again, as I research disasters is that true panic is rare, and that there is generally an assymetry of information between the accounts of passengers/customers and crew/staff regarding the events of the disaster. And that details contained in passenger/customer letters tend to support one another, 'though the writers generally had no way of comparing notes, while details contained in staff/crew accounts tend to not only contradict those written by 'civilians,' but those written by other staff members as well.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 557
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 9:17 pm: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XRoa8C8VbA
junior high school musical???
umm did I miss something here?
"No Sir, We just hit the cruiser"
helmsman on Queen Mary
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Jason Schleisman
Member
Username: bioflosse
Post Number: 971
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:16 pm: |
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Hi Martin! Welcome to the ridiculousness that is 1970's Americana. Occasionally, it pops into the minds of some of us whether we like it or not. 
aka: the "Mad Hatter"
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3988
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 11:01 pm: |
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>umm did I miss something here?
No, twas just an off the cuff response to the phrase "such are the tracks my mind runs along at 7.45AM..." used by Martin Williams. Some days at 7:45 I roll out of bed wondering if the three or four unidentified pregnant bodies recovered after the Lusitania wreck could be identified by process of elimination and if anyone, upon reporting these women missing supplied the salient fact that "she was visibly pregnant." Other days, god knows why, I roll out of bed with a hideous performance by pre-nose job Paula Abdul bouncing around in my head. So, I responded as I would have had I actually been speaking with Martin on the phone, or in person...off the cuff. Was there anything of interest in the following three or four paragraphs, or was the 'riffing' the only point actually worthy of comment?
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 3:22 am: |
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Jim-
I also have Paula dancing in my head on certain mornings and remember the poster I had of her on my wall though out my late teens. Or I wonder about Rhoda Abbott's live in Providence Rd. Funny the way the brain works.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3989
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 6:28 am: |
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Ah, yes...I recall well the Rosa Abbott poster I had in my room during my teen years many a morning (the vaguely risque bathing suit one they used to sell at Postermat), and find myself thinking of Paula Abdul and her connections to Providence on occasion, too.
But, regarding the Lusitania. Mike and Cliff and I are progressing on the new article~ 600 count 'em 600 pages, plus at least 50 unpublished photos~ hopefully to be online on May 7th. I was thinking that perhaps a section on the botched evacuation might be in order. The format is different than that used in the first two parts, and I'm confident that the end result will not disappoint.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 507
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 9:21 am: |
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Don't get me wrong, chaps, I'm all for a bit of 1970s Americana (strictly high class, you understand). I'm in a lather of excitement over the prospect of the 'Simply Halston' biopic, apparently scheduled for release later this year. Although I usually draw the line at Junior High School musicals, preferring to rise and shine to the massed Cockney chorus of 'Who Will Buy?' from Carol Reed's 'Oliver!'
Anyway...yes, thank you Jim, the following three or four paragraphs of your post WERE of some interest, to me at least. THIS morning, as I ironed my shirt (pale blue poplin, Prince of Wales collar, slightly frayed), I even started to wonder how Captain Turner could conceivably have 'concentrated' his passengers and crew, keeping as many of them together as possible in one or two key areas, allowing for easy access to the boats as and when the torpedo struck. If this meant fore-going hot luncheons in the dining saloons and having sandwich buffets provided by stewards in the lounges, then so be it. How far, time-wise, was the 'Lusitania' from port? I can imagine that it would have been difficult to move about the ship, pack suitcases etc, whilst wearing bulky and cumbersome life-jackets but such a precaution on the part of Turner would at least have ensured that passengers would reach dry land ALIVE, instead of distinctly damp and rather dead. |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1599
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 10:41 pm: |
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quote:Ah, yes...I recall well the Rosa Abbott poster I had in my room during my teen years many a morning (the vaguely risque bathing suit one they used to sell at Postermat), and find myself thinking of Paula Abdul and her connections to Providence on occasion, too.
It was kinda of shocking at that. What was Rhoda thinking.
New Lusitania Article!!!! Jim, 600 pages is a book to me. You and you collaborators should Publish it. I'd buy it.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3990
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 12:06 am: |
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Hello, Martin: Regarding 'concentrating' the passengers. It need not have been a lockdown-type situation, but given the level of concern among the passengers, I tend to believe that a few common-sense tips:
1) Keep your lifejackets on.
2) Try to keep your family together as much as possible.
3) Do NOT allow anyone under 13 to go off alone.
3) Make yourself aware of the direct routes to the boat deck.
4) Keep your money, letters of credit, traveling papers and jewelry on your person. In the unlikely event that something happens, do NOT go belowdecks.
would have fallen on receptive ears. Because, these were the equivalent of tourists who bitch because a boatdrill interfered with the sail away celebration. These were people who, until the beautiful day lulled them into a sense of security, were VERY concerned. Human nature being as it is, some WOULD have taken off their life jackets, just as some would have allowed their children to wander off, but even if HALF of those on board had obeyed, a lot of the factors which cost lives would have been lessened.
Had things gone well, they would have arrived in Liverpool the following morning.
"Who Will Buy?" Oh, a favorite, to be sure. The musical numbers in Oliver have an amusing trait: they are all at least two verses long; have a portion where they slow and seem to be about to end, before rallying and racing off again at full tilt, and are structured to allow INFINITE numbers of encores if demanded by adoring parents.
Mike, my coauthor, has the Lusitania songbook with all the 1914-15 hits in it. Not EXACTLY the same as Lionel Bart material (Oliver/ Twang) but still amusing.
Blue poplin! Today I opted for Olive silk. Olive is NOT my color, but I like it and so say 'damn convention.'
>Jim, 600 pages is a book to me.
We're going to have a lot of fun with it!
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 1:58 am: |
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Jim-
I hope you do have some fun with it. That's a lot of work. It would be nice though to get an accurate account of what really happened with the lowing of the lifeboats.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 17050
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 4:29 am: |
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>>How far, time-wise, was the 'Lusitania' from port?<<
If you're referring to Queenstown, about an hour. The sinking took place around ten miles off the Old Head of Kinsale.
As it stands however, Turner and Company made enough mistakes to render any port too far away. You tend not to get very far when you hand the guy who's hunting you the sort of easy firing solution that sub drivers dream about, and Turner did!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3993
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 4:50 am: |
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MAJOR CORRECTION! I dropped the word "NOT!" from this sentence:
Because, these were the equivalent of tourists who bitch because a boatdrill interfered with the sail away celebration.
These were NOT the equivalent. Damn do I feel like an idiot.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 5:24 am: |
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I happens to the best of us, Jim. At least you remember to add your S.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 17064
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 6:01 am: |
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>>These were NOT the equivalent. Damn do I feel like an idiot.<<
Chalk it up to a middle aged moment maybe? I have my share but I still figured it out what you meant and it made sense. Makes the comedy of errors which led to this look even sillier. Captain Turner could have had all of his passengers ready for the worst with their full and even eager co-operation and he didn't.
Gives a new and darker meaning to Missed Opportunities, doesn't it?
Makes you wonder why they even bothered with the dog and pony show lifeboat drill. They could have done without and had the same result.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3994
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 7:07 am: |
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>Chalk it up to a middle aged moment maybe?
Sensory overload. Attempting to get this article together, beginning another solo article, and retaining EVERY LAST THING I saw on TV prior to 1990:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaTHOCGyobE
is now catching up with me. Crucial information is being jettisoned so that I can retain, forever, my ability to dance the DiscoRhumba to Cherchez La Femme, should the opportunity to do so present itself. sad and scary....I'm being reduced to naught but American History, disasters, and pop culture references....
>Captain Turner could have had all of his passengers ready for the worst
Which is something addressed at great length in the new article.
Since 1915 (listen to the lyrics of "When the Lusitania Went Down" as an early example of what I am about to say) the survivors and friends and families of those who died, had to live with the sometimes not so subtle "Blame the Victim" accusations fostered by the warning of May 1, 1915. Generally tossed out by commentators who haven't given much thought to the timing of the warning.
The famed Important Notice appeared in the morning edition of the daily papers on sailing day. Most of the passengers, in fact probably the vast majority, did not hear about it until they were at the pier or on the ship. (Who, at a hotel, or coming in by morning commuter train, would have read the shipping advertisement pages, anyway?) Had the warning been issued on several days leading up to sailing day, the passegners would have had time to make an informed "sail or not sail" decision, and to a great extent Blame the Victim would be callous but, in fact, fairly accurate. By the time most passengers learned of the warning they were confronted with these factors:
"My luggage has already been taken away from me. How do I get it back?"
"If I get off the ship, will my fare be forfeited, or will a neutral line step up and honor my ticket?
"Will I have to pay a second fare to cross on the New York?"
"Is there room on the New York, and how do I go about booking it?"
"If I can't get my trunks back, how will I get them returned from Liverpool? Will I have to pay?'
"All of my clothes are in those trunks. If I can't get them back, what will I wear on the New York?"
...and so on. If one was a Vanderbilt or a Hammond, replacing the wardrobe would have been easy. And, if one traveled frequently, one would have known who to see about retrieving one's baggage, rebooking tickets, etc.
But the rank and file passengers were in a VERY bad spot. Annie Williams and her six children. Father deserted them, and the neighbors "passed the hat" to raise money to send Annie home to her father in England. Sure, she COULD have marched her whole family off of the ship, but then what?
One must remember, that, of course, the disaster had not yet happened. Had, for instance, Emily Anderson walked off the ship and returned to Bridgeport with her daughter, what would she have said? "I left the ship on a hunch because of a warning?" And what would she have said when the ship arrived safely? WE know that it didn't, but on May 1st she did not have that knowledge.
So, these people took a gamble and lost, big.
But that is not to say that they were careless or stupid. The eividence is quite convincing that, at least for a time on May 7th, people were "danger aware." The usual "We did not want to get them upset" rationale does not work at all in this case, because they already WERE upset. And, rather like Mrs. Witherbee, I hold Turner responsible for the HUGE death toll, because preventative measures even beyond obeying the Admiralty instructions could have been taken and weren't. People who were, shall we say, tensed and ready for disaster, were lulled into letting their guards down. And that is the biggest disgrace of the day. I often think about Mrs MacFarquhar's quote about how beautiful everything was and of thinking "Where is the danger?" dismissively, after her apprehensions of the morning began to seem silly.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1930
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 4:11 pm: |
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quote:these were [not] the equivalent of tourists who bitch because a boatdrill interfered with the sail away celebration.
Interesting what a few of today's cruisers do bitch about when it comes to the boat drill that usually takes place 1/2 hour prior to sail away. The funniest remark I ever heard was when we were all assembled at lifeboat stations and someone in a very serious inquisitive tone looked up and asked their spouse standing alongside, "are they at least going to serve us free drinks?"
Sam Halpern
TITANICOLOGY
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1604
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 5:52 pm: |
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Good Point Sam,
I think that it's in our collective consciousness that we need to have a boat drill. I think folks would complain more if there wasn't a boat drill.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 17067
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 7:01 pm: |
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>>Sensory overload. Attempting to get this article together, beginning another solo article, and retaining EVERY LAST THING I saw on TV prior to 1990:<<
Aye, that would do it. I think I would have preferred to forget that vidio. The thing sound just about blew me out of my chair.
>>Sure, she COULD have marched her whole family off of the ship, but then what?<<
Try to find a job in a factory or as a seamstress while caring for six kids on pennies and without a home to put them in. It's not hard to see that taking the ship would have looked like the better bet.
>>because preventative measures even beyond obeying the Admiralty instructions could have been taken and weren't.<<
The sheer irony here is that the simple expediant of following the Admiralty orders would have placed the Lusitaina where the U-20 wasn't.
No sub,
No torpedo blowing a hole in your side,
No primary and secondary explosions with scalding to death, drowning, freezing, and other fun things.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3997
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 5:13 pm: |
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>The sheer irony here is that the simple expediant of following the Admiralty orders would have placed the Lusitania where the U-20 wasn't.
Turner got a 'free pass' for his conduct on May 7th. I cannot profess to any insights as to why he hugged the shoreline that morning, with experienced travelers like Joseph Myers later commenting that in all of their crossings they had NEVER known a liner to sail so close to the Irish coast. I also do not TRULY understand why he then pulled the ship further out into the channel and then altered course directly for where the submarine waited, closer to shore. I know what he said LATER about these points, but I don't entirely accept his attempts to explain.
I DO wish that the U.S. hearings had been held BEFORE we entered the war, and I further wish that Turner had undergone hostile examination at said. Churchill's explosive initial outburst often haunts me...
I would,at some point, like to trace the "humanizing detail" that appears in many works about Turner ~ that in his last days in NYC in April 1915, in addition to visiting with his niece, Miss Desmore, he also dined at Luchow's. if true THAT deserves more editorial comment than it gets. Because it is the equivlent of learning that....say....the head of Pan Am security coincidentally went out "for Libyan" in a city that was predominantly anti-U.S. the night before Pan Am 103 and Lockerbie. It might mean nothing, or it might mean a lot.
Myself- I tend to think he did NOT dine at Luchow's, nor do I think he intentionally steeredthe ship into the submarine's range. Yet, there is always that small element of doubt....
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1611
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 1:30 am: |
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quote:small element of doubt....
His stupidity in navigation was what got me. I already went into that earlier though in this same post. That was 45 minutes he didn't have. All because he was fussy with his navigational skill. Which is a good thing unless you are in a War Zone with active U-boat lurking about.
If I was the Captain of the Lusitania I would of only done the cross bearing (Navigation 5 minuets at tops) and then done a full 18 knots to get to Liverpool. Not dickered around in the War Zone. I would of been going lickedy split all the way.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 509
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 1:36 pm: |
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'Churchill's explosive initial outburst often haunts me...'
Why, what did he say? |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3999
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 4:29 pm: |
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Hi, Martin: I do not have the exact quote with me~ when I work on an article, all of my books are left in "a safe place" and I carry with me only original 1915-1918 paperwork, so there is NO possibility of dipping into someone else's work.....
Churchill, when given the details of the Lusitania's weird, meandering course that morning, and of its sudden diversion and straight-line course towards the U-20, opined rather.....forcefully..... that Turner was an agent of the Germans.
If one wanted to, one could spin that quote, and the anecdotal evidence that Turner dined at Luchow's shortly before the Lusitania's final departure, into a wonderful but irresponsible "conspiracy theory" article.
Luchows....a very sad NYC story. It stood on East 14th Street, just off Fourth Avenue and Union Square, in its own, freestanding Victorian building. Its interiors were perfectly preserved, over the top, gay 90s baroque~ and by the 1960s/70 as famous as the first rate German cuisine. But, ca 1975, Union Square had become "The Stroll" (one of many)and the neighborhood overrun by addicts, prostitutes and threatening-seeming street people. The idea of going to The Square for a 5 star dining experience became increasingly alien, and ca 1981 the hundred year old restaurant pulled up stakes and moved to a better neighborhood, taking the best of the old woodwork and Victoriana with it. the building stood empty, and soon became a crack house and a place where the $10 ho's who worked the square could take clients. I went to college nearbye, and often WANTED to venture into the ruins to see how much of the woodwork and stained glass remained on premises, but knew that my chances of surviving unmolested were slim-to-none, and so I never did. The Luchow's building was finally demolished (I think after a fire) and shortly thereafter the neighborhood started to gentrify. Today the Union Square neighborhood commands top-dollar rent and is quite vibrant. For a history and architecture buff, it is quite sad to think that had Luchow's survived, even as a ruin, for just three more years, it would now be a beautifully restored cultural treasure.
I think that the Churchill quote can be found in Simpson's book, for one place.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 510
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 4:51 pm: |
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Captain Turner, an instrument of the Kaiser! Perhaps if he'd known that his penchant for schnitzel and sauerkraut was going to lay him open to such speculation, he'd have opted for steak and kidney pudding instead. |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4000
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 5:17 pm: |
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That's why I want to track down the Luchow's anecdote to its source. It just seems so....improbable....that an English captain would go to a part of NYC that was rabidly pro-German to eat, regardless of his craving for spaetzel. Did some latter day author pick Luchow's because it was the first vintage 1915 restaurant that came to mind, without thinking of the odd implications that the choice carried, or did he actually eat at a restaurant that held fundraisers for Germany?
The meandering course and erratic, slow, speed is a better framework on which to hang a conspiracy. Myself- I think that he was exceptionally stupid, but not duplicitous.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 511
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 5:39 pm: |
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I seem to remember that the Luchnow's anecdote was dished up in 'Seven Days to Disaster' - a book I took out time and again from my local library when I was about nine, even dragging it to Italy one summer (mother slightly aghast at my choice of poolside reading - still more aghast as I hurled myself repeatedly from the diving board in the guise of a 'Lusitania' passenger plunging into the Atlantic). The authors even spiced it up by having Turner, as an Englishman and therefore an enemy, deliberately insulted by fellow-diners in the restaurant. If that is the sort of treatment that Turner received there, maybe he made a POINT of going, as a show of defiance...
Then again, even at my tender age, I was able to identify certain inaccuracies in 'Seven Days'...hmmmm (thinks): didn't the authors have first-class women splashing around in an indoor swimming pool? Which, as we all know, the 'Lusitania' most certainly did not possess? |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1615
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 9:03 pm: |
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quote:I seem to remember that the Luchnow's anecdote was dished up in 'Seven Days to Disaster'
I believe that Captain Turner going to Luchow's first made its appearance in Last Voyage Of The Lusitania by A. A. Hoehing. Although I could be mistaken.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4001
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 12:20 am: |
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>still more aghast as I hurled myself repeatedly from the diving board in the guise of a 'Lusitania' passenger plunging into the Atlantic
If you had access to a circular above-ground pool, you could make a fairly fierce whirlpool pre-dive, to replicate the current that washed jumpers astern. ENDLESS hours of fun.
>The authors even spiced it up by having Turner, as an Englishman and therefore an enemy, deliberately insulted by fellow-diners in the restaurant.
All the more reason to toss the story. From WHERE would that detail come? Probably from the same source as the swimming pool story.
BUT, if the story initially came from a solid source- and Hoehling was pretty good about sources- it just seems like a very odd choice of restaurant for an English captain. Turner being photographed there would have been a GREAT propaganda tool for Germany before the disaster. "Turner, of the Lusitania, England's greatest liner still in service, seen emerging from hotbed of German support" would have been a massive embarrassment. And, therefore, would have been a NATURAL for the Staats-Zeitung.
So, if he DID dine there, it indicates that either
~He was painfully oblivious, to the point of stupidity.
~He was so set in his ways that even The Great War would not interfere with his course of action.
~Something more sinister was taking place.
The events of May 7 can, at a glance, support any of those statements.
If, indeed, he DID dine at Luchows, it makes me wish all the more that he had been subject to hostile interrogation.
Just as I wish that the warning relayed to Mary Hammond, via a relative, by German officials had been made public in 1915.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4002
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 6:31 am: |
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Oh, and, Martin, I meant to say before that I have pleasant childhood vacation memories centered around Hoehling's Last Voyage of the Lusitania. My dad bought me the paperback, which I read cover-to-cover on the ENDLESS drive out to the Hamptons. Stalled bumper-to-bumper traffic, no airconditioning in the car, New York in July, this on the radio every 5 minutes and no point changing the channel because it cannot be escaped:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJqYyqG36IU
and me sitting there engrossed by a book that I already liked better than ANTR. That was the summer of Jaws and, typically, I impulse bought a book called Shark Attacks on Man at the pharmacy at Montauk to read after the Lusitania book was finished....as an adult I can see just how WEIRD a book that was to sell at a beach resort in midsummer. But, there I sat on the beach blanket, reading the ONE book guaranteed to make going into the ocean stressful, as my parents reworked their "why do you keep BUYING books like that if you know the effect they are going to have on you?" lecture slightly~ usually it was delivered in the wake of my reading things like "50 True Nightmares of the Supernatural." Having read that cover to cover, and being unwilling to enter the ocean deeper than my ankles, I soon headed back to another store, where to my delight I found Simpson's Lusitania book AND a great tome about shark attacks written by a man who was actually eaten by a shark- published posthumously. The Simpson book, to a ten year old reader, was a bit of a disappointment. I finished it, but only JUST, and ended up re-reading Hoehling obsessively throught the vacation while successfully avoiding entering the water at all costs.
DECADES later, a mistaken belief in a shark attack at a beach near to the one at which we summered in 1976 provided a catastrophic end to a perfectly good night on the town. My friend and I had gone to a "discreet" small restaurant (seated 20. $90-$150 p.p. price range) where the food was in the "top 5" for the entire state of New York, and the seating rather snug. Seated at the table next to us were two "tweedy academic" couples, one 50-something and one 30-something. The fifty something wife had a Shelley Winters-like voice, and as the wine began to kick in, and her volume began to increase, the conversation from their table bled into ours. Until, Shelley Winters like, she declared "I feel so sorry for that little boy who got his arm ripped off by a shark at Robert Moses State Park last week." in tones that I am sure carried into the parking lot. Her husband calmly said "Diana...that was in Pensacola." "NOOOOO!" she wailed, "It was at Robert Moses State Park near Gilgo." What followed was a screaming fight between the two of them, with him bellowing "DIANA! You need to COME DOWN TO EARTH! it was Pensacola!" and her ENDLESSLY screaming and sobbing "NO! It was Robert Moses State Park near Gilgo." My friend and I sat there stone faced and trying not to laugh, as we witnessed our first ever Geek Bar Fight. Then, the 30-something geek, to show his machismo, stood up, proudly, to his full height, to protect "Diana." "You've been treating her like a bastard all evening" he said in outraged tones. He MEANT to hurl his drink, contemptuously, into the face of Diana's drunken husband, but he TOO had been imbibing heavily and missed, instead hitting us, and dousing $4000 worth of Pal Zileri jackets with unremoveable red wine. And, suddenly, the bar fight moved into a whole new direction....
....sad thing is- it WAS Pensacola.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 512
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 9:35 am: |
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'The fifty-something wife had a Shelley Winters-like voice...'
Shelley Winters + Tales of Maritime Catastrophe = 'The Poseidon Adventure'...I've never actually read the book but I vividly remember seeing the film for the first time, aged about eight. It made a BIG impression. Even now, I can't see a large Christmas tree without mentally assessing its climbability in the event the room turns turtle with me in it.
I wonder how Gene Hackman's character would have gone about escaping and surviving the 'Lusitania'? Presumably, Margaret Mackworth's foresight in removing her hobble skirt before jumping overboard was the origin of Susan Shelby's strip-scene in the film. Although I somehow doubt Lady Mackworth was wearing bright red knickers that day. |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4003
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 3:26 pm: |
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Tying in to the "escape" and the Poseidon: Gene Hackman would no doubt have come up with some brilliant escape plan to get people off of the port side; would have bellowed "it IS true, you pompous ass!" at the officer who ordered the emptying of the loaded boats, and of couse, would ONLY have been followed by the eight most famous people on board. These would have been broken down into two groups: uniformly visually unappealing men, and women who either had GREAT backsides to stir hetero interest during the climbing scenes, or were so annoying that the audience secretly anticipated their demise with some glee. Since the voyage commenced on May 1, no doubt a maypole and its streamers would have been an integral part of the escape plan.
I have no more than I did b4, but now I've got all that I need, 4 I love u and I know u love me
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Grant Carman
Member
Username: lksimcoe
Post Number: 140
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 6:34 pm: |
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Martin
Even the remake has had unintended side effects.
I had my partner almost 99% convinced to do a transatlantic crossing on the QM2, and then 1 weekend, without thinking, rented the remake of Poseidon.
My partners reaction after seeing it was "and you want me to get on a ship? Not a chance in hell".
Of course it's all my fault, and laughing at him afterwards also didn't help the situation.
I figure we might go in 2020. |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1619
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 7:29 pm: |
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Grant what were you thinking.
quote:Even now, I can't see a large Christmas tree without mentally assessing its climb ability in the event the room turns turtle with me in it.
That's like me in a cemetery after seeing NOTLD. My brother was always like their coming to get you Georgie when ever we'd be at a cemetery and see people in the distance putting flowers on the graves of their loved ones. Kids!
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 561
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 9:05 pm: |
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Grant,
I had a similar experience with TPA
A took a couple of younger friends to it without realising they were about to go overseas by ship.
I was a popular as a dogs--t on the shagpile.
Their mother went NATO.
How was I to know?
"No Sir, We just hit the cruiser"
helmsman on Queen Mary
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Jason Schleisman
Member
Username: bioflosse
Post Number: 981
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 6:51 am: |
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Speaking of TPA, and what NOT to watch before embarking upon a crossing, how 'bout The Last Voyage? Starring Robert Stack of Rescue 911 and Unsolved Mysteries fame, if one can mentally block that screaming brat of a girl (Tammy) from one's mind while watching, the special effects, I feel, are even better than TPA ~ even though it was made a decade or so earlier. I mean, they actually sank part of the Ile de France for real!
aka: the "Mad Hatter"
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Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 4406
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 5:51 pm: |
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Hi Jason,
quote:Starring Robert Stack of Rescue 911
Rescue 911 was hosted by William Shatner, not Robert Stack.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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Jason Schleisman
Member
Username: bioflosse
Post Number: 983
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 6:36 pm: |
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Oops! Oh yeah. Well, I was young. They both looked and sounded relatively the same to me back then.
(I know, I know, how could I have mistaken the great Captain Kirk for Airplane!'s Rex Kramer?)
aka: the "Mad Hatter"
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Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 4409
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 7:20 pm: |
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quote:(I know, I know, how could I have mistaken the great Captain Kirk for Airplane!'s Rex Kramer?)
Yes, what were you thinking, Jason?! 
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1623
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 7:52 pm: |
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Shatner and Stack did sound the same at that. They look the same and their names sound the same. I have never confused the two but I've made other mistakes. Don't feel bad Jason S. You make such a handsome Blond.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Bringing Recollections Of By Gone Happy Days.
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Jason Schleisman
Member
Username: bioflosse
Post Number: 984
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 8:49 pm: |
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William /Robert, Billy /Bob, it's all the same! I'm soooo confused! Time to go dye my roots.
aka: the "Mad Hatter"
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1626
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 9:49 pm: |
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quote:William /Robert, Billy /Bob, it's all the same! I'm soooo confused! Time to go dye my roots.
Thank God their not Presidential Candidates. We'd have a tighter campaign then we have now. Or a really confused one.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
Handing Out Free Blond Moments
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