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Randy B. Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 790
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 9:36 pm: | 
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ALFRED GWYNNE VANDERBILT, 1907
CHARLES KLEIN, c. 1914
ELBERT HUBBARD, 1914
All photographs from Library of Congress
(non-copyright restricted; prints available for purchase) |
Shelley Dziedzic
Moderator
Username: shelley
Post Number: 1473
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 11:16 pm: |
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 Barbara Anderson McDermott on Friday April 25th in Newport. Such a lovely photo and deserves a double posting in case you missed it under Gilded Age! |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 202
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 9:44 pm: |
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Beatrice and Alfred Witherbee,1914. Beatrice survived, Alfred, aged 4, was lost and his body found. |
Cliff Mark Barry
Member
Username: cb139
Post Number: 89
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 1:15 pm: |
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Hi Hildur,
there is some doubt as to whether the body recovered was that of young Witherbee, it may well have been that of the youngest Luck child also travelling first class
Cliff |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 203
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 3:41 pm: |
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To Cliff: Did Mrs. Witherbee identify the child, or was it up to the people who found him? |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 687
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 4:08 pm: |
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The father and mother identified the child by the clothing and the pic, if I remember correctly, but it was a badly deformed body, and another body that better fit little Scott's description was wearing identical clothing and was buried in the mass grave.
Sitting on stuff is called, 'squatty toad syndrome'.
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 206
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 4:23 pm: |
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Hmmm, interesting about little Scott. Was there any photo or anyone to identify the Luck child in case he was found? |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 688
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 4:26 pm: |
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Hi Hildur,
From memory, I believe it was Mr. Luck who made the claim. He had previously come to England on the Lusitania. Why the officials took the word of Mr. Witherbee over Mr. Luck is unclear. Maybe money changed hands. Hard to say. I think, since Trixie Witherbee was a complete emotional wreck, he wanted some closure for her.
Mike
Sitting on stuff is called, 'squatty toad syndrome'.
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 209
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 4:47 pm: |
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Hmmm, so maybe we will never know.
I was just starting to think about this. When Titanic sank, the bodies recovered were placed in seperate graves, like rows, and a stone for each, why is it that Lusitania's victims were placed together in large pits? Maybe it was because of the year, the war.
And also has anyone ever wanted to find some true identity through DNA, like they have done on Titanic? I mean, there are a lot of people (and many children) who remain unclaimed to this day.
And as a random question do you, personally know any information regarding ages of passengers? All my books are without them. I started a thread asking the same thing. It's just bugging the crap out of me. |
J. Kent Layton
Member
Username: jkent
Post Number: 82
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:00 pm: |
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Hildur,
Mike was good enough to assist me in compiling just such a list for my book, "Lusitania: An Illustrated Biography of the Ship of Splendor". Passenger ages, where known, are supplied on the list, as well as on the accompanying crew list. Hope this helps.
Regards,
J. Kent Layton
http:/www.atlanticliners.com/atlantic_liners_book.htm
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 210
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:04 pm: |
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Cool, i will have to get that one, for sure! Good for you for posting the ages, it does drive me nuts to have so many lists, but no ages! |
J. Kent Layton
Member
Username: jkent
Post Number: 83
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:48 pm: |
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Hildur,
You can obtain a softcover copy through online bookstores (Amazon, Barnes, etc.). If you would like a hardcover edition, that has to be ordered either through the publisher (www.Lulu.com) or through my own site (www.atlanticliners.com). I really hope that this list is helpful to you.
Regards,
J. Kent Layton
http:/www.atlanticliners.com/atlantic_liners_book.htm
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 211
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:57 pm: |
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If it has ages, then it will be helpful. |
J. Kent Layton
Member
Username: jkent
Post Number: 84
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:59 pm: |
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It does. 
Regards,
J. Kent Layton
http:/www.atlanticliners.com/atlantic_liners_book.htm
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3478
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 10:11 pm: |
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The Witherbee child/Luck child was recovered late in the game, so to speak. The clothing was identifiable, but the child was not, his face being entirely gone. The clothing was forwarded to A.S. and Beatrice Witherbee, in London, who positively identified it as being clothing owned by A.S. Junior. Charlotte Luck, being dead, could not contest that, nor could Arthur Courtland Luck swear that either of his sons owned such an outfit. So, in the end it came down to the clothing.
As Mike said, the body in question seems to be a bit large for A.S. Junior, and the right size for a boy of the missing Luck child's age, while the boy in the mass grave, wearing the same outfit, is a better fit for AS Witherbee, Jr.
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 5:55 am: |
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Hi Jim,
I hate mix ups like that. Poor two Kid. I don't know which is worse to be buried under the wrong name or no name at all.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
"With Recollections of by gone happy days."
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Jason Schleisman
Member
Username: bioflosse
Post Number: 545
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 6:44 am: |
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Similar to the Titanic Goodwin / Panula mix-up, as Hildur unfortunately, knows well. 
If Titanic was powered by biodiesel, we would wear vegetable oil around our necks instead of coal
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3490
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 9:57 am: |
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>I don't know which is worse to be buried under the wrong name or no name at all.
I'd say being drowned or dying of exposure is worse than either. The ONLY clue Beatrice Witherbee ever gave regarding what happened to her family that afternoon was an oblique reference to the fact that she tried to hold on to A.S. Jr. in the water. I think that for him, the circumstances of how he died, probably caused him more posthumous grief (if one believes in the afterlife) than where he ended up buried.
>And also has anyone ever wanted to find some true identity through DNA, like they have done on Titanic?
In the case of A.S. Witherbee, it could theoretically be done, since he was intered in a private grave. In terms of the mass grave, it would be difficult at this point~ the coffins were stacked in multiple tiers. As each tier collapsed, as the wooden coffins decayed, there would probably be a certain amount of....mingling... of the bodies, because there was no intervening layer of dirt between tiers to serve as a barrier. In short- when the bottom most coffin in the stack of three caved in, the two atop it would fall into it. When the second caved in, the occupant would drop down into the remains of #1, and #3 would shift downward again. So, even if a family member had evidence convincing enough to warrant an exhumation, it would be a bit more complex than opening a private grave, since all three bodies would have to be removed, reassembled, and tested (if all 3 were of the same gender).
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Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 71
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 2:31 pm: |
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Hi Folks, room for one more in this discussion?
This thread has the potential to be a very deep and fascinating discussion, and possibly controversial.
I agree with Jim when he says it is theoretically possible to identify the remains of the child buried in the private grave as being one of the Luck children or young Witherbee, but the legal and logistical problems would be great. For a start, permission would have to be sought, and granted, to allow exhumation. A suitable bone would have to be found to allow DNA to be obtained, and then that DNA would have to be matched with a known relative. Time consuming and probably expensive, but possible. As for the mass graves, and remains collapsing down on those below them, if the graves have been relatively undisturbed since they were filled in, careful excavation should be able to determine the order of remains, despite being a bit mixed up, regardless of gender.
Jim also refers to the Titanic, and I presume the documentary showing efforts to positively identify three of the victims. From memory, I believe only one out of the three was identified as no DNA evidence could be found in the remains of two of the subjects, the graves being waterlogged. I do not think that the Lusitania graves suffer waterlogging as they are on a hill with good drainage, but one never knows, so maybe the possibilities of gathering DNA evidence is stronger.
Now let us look further. If someone were to start with the private grave to try and determine whether the remains are Luck or Witherbee, why not exhume all the remains, take DNA samples, and try to identify more of the unidentified, and positively and definitively identify those who were tentatively identified at the time. A massive and probably futile effort.
First of all, to have any hope of identifying all the remains recovered, relatives of everyone on board, and who were lost, would have to be found and DNA samples obtained from them. Then the matching process would begin, which would take years. And while we are at it, why stop at the Lusitania. Why not continue the Titanic, and hundreds of other similar cases, or the unknown soldiers buried in battlefields all over the world?
In the era we live in, much more is possible now than ever, and as each year passes, more and more becomes possible. Now, taking DNA samples from victims of all types of tragedies is standard practise, and today nearly every victim of an air crash, shipping disaster, or other instance of massive loss of life in developed countries can be identified. Not so in 1912 and 1915, and even in to the 1980's.
We could start a campaign to have the mass graves and private graves exhumed in an effort to try and positively identify as many victims as possible, or we can accept that everyone did their best in the aftermath of the disaster, acted in good faith and for the best reasons at the time, and leave it at that. Should we interfere and change history, and if we did change part of history, would it be of any benefit?
I am sure everyone has their own view on whether or not any of the graves should be opened, and depending on ones faith, whether or not a victim, or the victims in general, are at peace, but I do not think anyone alive today would really benefit from anyone interfering with the graves or remains at this point in time.
Let them rest in peace, whoever they may be, I say.
Peter |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 1, 2007 - 5:49 am: |
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Peter>
quote:Hi Folks, room for one more in this discussion?
But of course. The more the merrier we say.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
"With Recollections of by gone happy days."
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 3495
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, November 1, 2007 - 10:00 am: |
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>For a start, permission would have to be sought, and granted, to allow exhumation.
Which wasn't granted, in 1915, despite specific requests by relatives and -in one case- powerful, well connected, friends of the deceased. And with the passage of nearly a century, would probably be less likely to be granted.
>I do not think that the Lusitania graves suffer waterlogging as they are on a hill with good drainage,
"Leeching" would be a big factor. Optimum burial conditions~particularly for inexpensive wooden coffins~ would be on a hill somewhere where there is little or no groundwater, a neutral or slightly sweet soil, and infrequent rains. There one only has to deal with the twin problems of dry-rot and marauding rodents (aka the famous church-yard rats)on coffin and occupant. The same conditions that make unexploded WW1 shells in France either rise closer to the present-day surface of the soil, or sink ever deeper, in rainy season, have been at work on the mass graves for as long. After all three tiers pancaked down atop one another, my guess is that they've continued to settle and 'homogenize' with each monsoon season. Just as an aside~ my father, in his professional capacity, received a lavishly illustrated invitation-cum-brochure to a three day seminar pertaining to this topic. To an 'outsider' (me) the day-to-day activities list seemed a bit, shall we say, outre, since in among classes pertaining to on-site evidence preservation, body parts gathering, and soil seining, were intersperced 'break for lunch' and 'coffee break.'
>or we can accept that everyone did their best in the aftermath of the disaster, acted in good faith and for the best reasons at the time, and leave it at that.
Will say that the Irish authorites did all of the above, but will question if Cunard did the same. In one case, they ruthlessly dunned the family of an American victim for payment of shippng charges BEFORE the family defaulted on it, in another a family who paid, via Cunard, for embalming, redressing, and shipment of their relative received (one month and $800 later) their unembalmed relative still in the clothing worn on May 7, 1915, and in one particularly egregious case, the wrong body was shipped back to the US. In the first case, of the dunning, the company DID reverse the charges in light of bad publicity, while in the second and third, the responses were, basically, "Oh well, too bad." In the third case, Cunard's dodging of responsibility, to both the persons in the US who paid for the shipment and burial of the wrong body, and the relatives in England who wanted their deceased kin back was particularly appalling~ but the people involved were not first class, the stories were buried deep in the Sept.1915 papers, and with minimal bad publicity to diffuse the company felt no need to rectify the error. It seemed that the running theme among correspondence pertaining to body recovery and burial was "Can we do it any cheaper?" to the extent that pressure was applied to Queenstown authorities to get professionals to reduce their bills for services rendered, and negotiate a better rate for the coffins.
Where it becomes interesting~ in at least two cases, direct relatives (as opposed to direct descendents) of IDENTIFIED bodies in the mass graves are still alive. If they wanted to push the point, they'd legally stand a better chance at forcing the exhumation.
My own take on this is that they should be left alone. The exhumation would be a literal mess, one would have to begin with a 'best guess' dig and work outward and downward (Look at the burial site photos. These people were NOT buried with the thought of eventual disinterment. The coffins appear to have been placed in rather non-linear fashion) and the chances of finding anything useful questionable.
In contrast, check out the General Slocum mass burial site. In that case, each body was placed into a numbered, separate, grave, and a cross-referenced chart compiled~ detailed to the extent that it lists each 'probable' identity of each body. As a result, identifications and reburials were made on into 1905
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 217
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 1, 2007 - 11:13 pm: |
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Yes, good points to all.
It does seem very ...for lack of a better word...silly.., to dig amongst the multiple/mass burials and expect to get the DNA we want. That, would be a miracle, nearly. I am just bothered, as i am sure a few others would be, by the questionable identity of the Witherbee/Luck boy.
It would seem, i suppose, rude in a manner to disturb ONE grave to find a name, and not all the others, which is seemingly impossible to do.
Does anyone know why the Empress burials were so, ah, messy, compared to the more decent Titanic burials? I mean, the Titanic's victims had a coffin each (but that was probably due to lack of children, and it would be hard to place two adults together) and had been buried closely , but still in their own respective graves. Now with the Empress, it's more 'messy'. Children and adults or other children were often sharing a coffin and well as a grave, which seems in my books rather rude and disrespectful. Given the day and age, and the price tag on this disaster, i assume what had to be done, had to be done, and they did the best they could.
Also, on a seperate question, can anyone help me with names of these child/infant passengers? I just can't seem to find them, and my book is gonna take a while to get here, and i am not exactly patient...=)
These are the unfortunate souls:
Master Axton (son of Dorothea Kelly Axton)
Infant Bolton (child of Mrs. George Henry Bolton)
Miss C. Evans (dau. of Mr and Mrs. Ernest Evans)
Infant McGatchen (child of Mrs. Maud Anfield McGatchen).
Please help if you can, it's driving me nuts!
Kiitos!
Hildur Panula-Heinonen |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 15255
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, November 2, 2007 - 4:55 am: |
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>>Does anyone know why the Empress burials were so, ah, messy, compared to the more decent Titanic burials?<<
I would think it was because there was a huge mass of bodies which had to be taken care of immidiately...as in before they had a chance to get "gamey"...and little time to do it in. With the Titanic victims, there was time to prepare the ships which conducted the search with sufficient mortuary equipment and supplies to do the job.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 224
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 5, 2007 - 3:08 pm: |
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Hmm, yeah that does make more sense. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 15302
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, November 5, 2007 - 3:54 pm: |
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Hildur, they had much the same problem in 1915 when the Lusitania was torpedoed. Lot's of bodies and inadaquate means to deal with them all, and it was even warmer in Ireland then it was in the Saint Lawrance River or the North Atlantic.
When you have hundreds of bodies to deal with and no way to slow down or prevent decomposition, about all you can do is photograph them (In the hope that a later identification will be possible) and then bury the lot as quickly as you can. It's undignified but the public health issues don't offer any options.
The extremely cold waters and advance preperations gave the people who were dealing with the Titanic's dead some breathing space to do the work that needed to be done.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 228
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 5, 2007 - 4:09 pm: |
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Yeah, a photograph is probably better than having to wait around for a few days for relatives to show up and review the further decomposed bodies. |
Cliff Mark Barry
Member
Username: cb139
Post Number: 90
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:22 am: |
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Hi Hildur,
It wasnt til around July 1915 when the photographs of the unidentified dead(prior to burial)arrived in New York for relatives to look at in the Cunard offices that some relatives could identify their loved ones - those identified included Mrs Montague Grant, Mrs Annie Bruno, Eva Mary Grandidge and the Ferguson infant, who was identified by his Aunt
Cliff |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 245
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 9:52 pm: |
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Why did it take two months for photos to arrive?
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Lepuuttaa kotona järjestys Jokela kuolonuhri
Me jälkisäädös ei unohtaa |
Cliff Mark Barry
Member
Username: cb139
Post Number: 91
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 4:59 pm: |
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Hi Hildur,
not rerally sure, may have something to do with so many unidentified victims and the pictures being shown in Liverpool and London and other parts of the UK for identification purposes before being sent to the US, some British passengers were identified in the US by friends and family and not identified by kin in the UK
Cliff |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 15438
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 5:29 am: |
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The postal system didn't exactly move at warp speed either. Overnight delivery which we take for granted today (If you can afford it) would have been a dream right out of science fiction back in 1912.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Eric Longo
Member
Username: mauretania19061935
Post Number: 435
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 8:51 am: |
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Hi All,
Although costly at first, limited and time consuming, "tele-photographing" was in use by February 1907 to send images between London, Germany and Paris. "Tele-autographing", the transmission of handwriting or documents, was in use 10 years before that. By 1910 experiments for sending images from London to New York were being planned. The first transatlantic telephoto was sent between France and the United States in 1921, so it was not that far off from 1915. By 1924 AT&T had introduced Telephoto service.
Best,
Eric Longo
Cunard Mauretania 1 photographs & postcards buy/sell - magikbilly@yahoo.com
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 247
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 4:23 pm: |
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Interesting |
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