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Message |
    
Tarn Stephanos
Member
Username: titanictarn
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 10:06 pm: | 
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One of the easyiest ways to tell the Lusitania and Mauritania apart is that the Mauritania had large bulky ventilators, wheras the Lusitania had sleeker, barrel shaped vents....
Does anyone know why these ships were fittled with complete different types of vents?
Anyone know if the style of cowl vents on the Lusitania were fitted on other Cunard ships?...
regards
Tarn Stephanos |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 8030
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 3:59 am: |
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>>Does anyone know why these ships were fittled with complete different types of vents?<<
As far as I know, it was an experiment and not a very successful one at that. Over time, some of these cowl type vents were replaced with the more conventional ones that were used on the Mauritania. To the best of my knowladge, it was not repeated on any other ship.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 920
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 2:19 pm: |
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What was the problem with it? If I remember correctly, there was an accident because of the cowl vents before.
You know what cowl vents remind me of? Those cylindrical metal teapots we use here have a flat cover which is hinged on the top look really like the cowl vents, especially when there is hot drinks inside!  |
laurent Gontier-Versailles
Member
Username: laurent
Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 2, 2004 - 10:28 am: |
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I think the experience never has been repeated because some of those covers flew away during heavy gales.
About the effectiveness of those covers , I don't think they were that bad , as the air needed to feed the boilers went through electrically driven ventilators and there were no complaints about it during the trials
What I would like to see are some detail pic's of the mechanism which did lower or raise those covers... |
Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 981
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 2, 2004 - 1:45 pm: |
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>>I don't think they were that bad<<
They were. Compared to the Mauretania's they were quite substandard. |
Eric Sauder
Member
Username: eric
Post Number: 366
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 2, 2004 - 5:32 pm: |
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Jeremy wrote: "Compared to the Mauretania's they were quite substandard."
What's your period source for this? Thanks.
Eric Sauder |
Jesse D O'Neill
Member
Username: j_d_oneill
Post Number: 145
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 2, 2004 - 7:33 pm: |
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Eric
i don't think a period source is needed to prove that the lusitania's ventilators were not as good as the Mauretania's, almost every single book written on the subject has criticised the Lusitania's ventilators, and surely they must have interviewed someone or read private papers to get this info. anyone interested in the differences between the two ships should search through the cunard archives, the bailey & Ryan Archives might also be of some help. for those who just want the basics the following books will do:
Mark Warren, Lusitania
Mark Warren, Mauretania
Eric Sauder, Lusitania
The Only Way to Cross
Sway of the Grand Saloon
Lost Liners
Transatlantic
Pic History of Cunard
Titanic Ships, Titanic Disasters
All of these books contain some info on the ventilators and will be found useful for that, and also other differences
Jesse D. O'Neill
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Eric Sauder
Member
Username: eric
Post Number: 367
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 2, 2004 - 8:13 pm: |
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Jesse:
You wrote: "i don't think a period source is needed to prove that the lusitania's ventilators were not as good as the Mauretania's...."
Well, think what you want, but to me this one is a no-brainer. Of course, one needs period sources. To anyone who is serious about their research, period sources are critical to understanding the subject. If all one does is read books that others have written, that’s not research.
"...almost every single book written on the subject has criticised the Lusitania's ventilators..."
Which is exactly why I would want a quote from a period source. It's too easy for authors to rewrite what has already been written and not do their own research. I'm very familiar with the books you mentioned, and I have my doubts about the accuracy of some of their information.
I thought perhaps Jeremy might have a source that I haven't seen. I still look forward to hearing his response.
Eric Sauder
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Jesse D O'Neill
Member
Username: j_d_oneill
Post Number: 147
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 2, 2004 - 10:43 pm: |
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Eric
i also listed archives where useful info on the ventilators can be found, to that list of archives ill add Hoehling & Hoehling. another book which might help would be the The Lusitania Story, though one should be careful in reading this book as authors tend to have chosen ureliable resources for theyre research, or as i like to call them "Simpsonites". though the first half of the book is interesting, most of which is mention in the first half can be found in Eric's book, and is fit into about 45 pages, the whole book being 175 pages, the story itself only 110, the rest being passanger and crew list, which have already been criticised. for local people in philadelphia, an interesting place to go might be "the seamans church of philadelphia", another place where independent research, military men/women depending on there knowledge and position might also be of some use, as has been demonstrated by standart in lots of cases. this whole letter is not of course entirely dedicated to the addressed, but everyone who wishes to read it.
Jesse D. O'Neill
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 8123
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 3, 2004 - 4:17 am: |
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Jesse, in regards sources, I think you'll find what Eric is referring to are primary sources along with the appropriate citations. That way, you get the whole of what's being said from the people and/or organisations that are actually saying it. Some of the books you mentioned aren't bad, (Some are quite good in fact!) but they're at best, secondary in nature.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jesse D O'Neill
Member
Username: j_d_oneill
Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 3, 2004 - 4:28 am: |
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standart
also listed Archives that would be helpful.
Bailey & Ryan
Hoehling & Hoehling
Cunard
other useful places would be maritime museums and seamans churches, naval veteran associations and groups (talking w/ the guys from USS New Jersey is great) also helpful is my grandpa who was WW2 sumariner and my unchle who is a chemist, both on my moms side, my dads side is mostly into dog shows as my grandpa on his side was Vice President of the American Kennel Association for a while, and every once and a while ill see a pictue of a pooch on one of the old grand liners.
Jesse D. O'Neill
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Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2437
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 4, 2004 - 3:06 am: |
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Jesse, I don't know if you quite understand what Eric and Michael are driving at in their request for you to pinpoint a specific contemporary source that supports the contention about the ventilators.
You've refered to books, archives, maritime museums, your grandfather etc, but you haven't answered the question. Which of these is the source? And what exactly is the claim within that source - how is it worded and supported?
Eric is interested in finding out if you can cite a reliable primary source that supports the observation you made on the ventilators. As he suggests, far too often material is cannibalised from one secondary source to another, without an attempt to get back to the origins of the claim.
In order to meaningfully discuss the claims about the ventilators, we need to pinpoint the original, primary source[s] from which the conclusions were drawn.
This sort of rigorous approach to assessing and utilising historical material is essential. |
Jesse D O'Neill
Member
Username: j_d_oneill
Post Number: 153
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 4, 2004 - 7:49 pm: |
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Inger
It was never my intention to provide a source to anyone which would answer the question, just sources which might help awser it for the benefit of others.
Jesse D. O'Neill
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Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2441
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 5, 2004 - 1:10 am: |
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Okay, Jesse - so you don't have a source for the statement, I gather? It might be just as well to state that clearly so we all know where we stand...Eric thought you might have come across something. One reason you'll find yourself pressed for sources if you make a statement like the one about the ventilators is that others hope to access new material. Your ideas on research angles are good ones, but I think you'll find that researchers such as Eric are already familiar with these possible avenues. |
Jesse D O'Neill
Member
Username: j_d_oneill
Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 5, 2004 - 4:16 am: |
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not exactly the case. but i've learned something from an earlier thread which included you. why give the pie away for free, when you can make an earning off that pie? as in, when one ask for anothers independent research, or in other words to give part of it up, they too should be prepared to do the same. and so far i have seen nothing to indicate that anyone here is interested in sharing.
Jesse D. O'Neill
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 8147
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 5, 2004 - 4:42 am: |
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>>but i've learned something from an earlier thread which included you. why give the pie away for free, when you can make an earning off that pie?<<
Jesse, I don't see anyone asking you to give away the pie, but when you make a very specific claim...as you did when you said "They were. Compared to the Mauretania's they were quite substandard."...it's far from unreasonable to ask for the source documents which back it up. That's how the game is played. Check any article published in Titanic research, and you'll see that identifying the source material is something everybody does. If the authors of these articles didn't do that, the articles would never see daylight, and quite properly so.
My own read on the matter comes from source material which is decidedly secondary, and that read is that the ventilator cowls used on the Lusitania were not successful and their use was not repeated on other ships. It wasn't that they didn't do the job, but that they were easily damaged and a maintainance headache that Cunard understandably wanted to do without.
Since that read could be mistaken, I wouldn't mind seeing something which either supports or refutes it that comes directly from the people who actually said it. That way, I and anyone else with an interest would know!!!
I don't think that Inger is missing the mark when she observes that you don't have any such source, otherwise, why refer to the "archives" and books...as you have...without giving the expected cite??? If what you have is your own personal opinion, it's not inappropriate to simply say so strieght up. People may or may not differ, but they won't think poorly of you for it.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2444
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 5, 2004 - 8:14 am: |
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Thank you, Michael. 'Make an earning of the pie?' - if only it were that mercenary! I've spent far more than I ever have recouped, or hope to recoup, in research.
You've made a claim - a flat statement - Jesse. All we're asking you is if you can substantiate it, and if so from what source. If you can, please do so...we all want to learn. And if not, then fine - as Michael says, no shame in the admission.
As for the statement 'so far i have seen nothing to indicate that anyone here is interested in sharing'...mate, I've freely shared some of the results of my research on this board (not just privately via email, but freely in this public forum) that have cost me money, time and effort. I've done so without any expectation of any form of return. Others have done likewise in their areas of expertise...Eric Sauder, for example. They might not share everything - for understandable reasons - but they've shared a remarkable amount, and with no recompense. |
Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 253
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 5, 2004 - 11:30 am: |
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On the subject of the vents the lids are capable of being rotated to take advantage of wind blowing across the ship's beam.
I found this in Mark Warren's facsimilie volume of Engineering 1907 which details the technical design of the Lusitania. This is a volume that I consider to be Primary source along with the copy of PRO transcripts of the Mersey Inquiry. Given where I live, I consider myself fortunate to own copy of both.
Martin |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 8155
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, March 6, 2004 - 5:46 am: |
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Considering you live in New Zealand, you must have had a devil of a time getting that transcript. Did you go through the PRO website to do it?
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 256
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 7:51 am: |
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Michael,
actually it was very easy with much thanks to fellow ET member Cliff Barry.
They are most useful esp for my film script work and other research. Now the question is how do I go about getting my hands on a copy of the Meyer hearings?
Martin |
Jesse D O'Neill
Member
Username: j_d_oneill
Post Number: 159
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 3:39 am: |
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Micheal
I wouldn't think it would be that hard to get it even for a person in New Zealand, I've seen dealers on Abes and Bookfinder selling the Engineering and Shipbuilder books.
Jesse D. O'Neill
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 8176
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 3:44 am: |
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Perhaps, but investigation transcripts are a somewhat different animal. Those aren't mass marketed as a matter of routine, and it would be a bit tough for any booksellor to get their hands on something that isn't easily available. Now if anybody knows a source where I can obtain this transcript other then the PRO, I'd like to see it.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 259
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 4:46 am: |
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Hi all,
here's the flip side of how I got those two publications.
By contrast the Engineering facsimilie of LUSITANIA came differently. This volume was produced in 1986 and a friend bought it 1990 but was not that interested in the ship and offered it to me at a well reduced price. It since has pride of place in my Lusitania collection.
Mike-
That is a damn good point! where you can order a copy of a certain document for a reasonable fee.
I, myself would like see witness depositions and inquiry transcript for the Meyer liability Hearings.
Martin
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Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 260
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 4:50 am: |
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Jesse
To give you an idea about this book, I have not seen it retailed here since 199O
It is rare and valued as such.
cheers
Martin |
Jesse D O'Neill
Member
Username: j_d_oneill
Post Number: 160
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 6:22 pm: |
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Martin
I might have been thinking of Australia, i get the two contries mixed up alot. anyway, i know the book is bit more common there, though still rare when compared w/ the US and UK. anyway, i think NZ currency is about even w/ AU currency, last time i checked 60 US Cents were the equivalent of One NZ Dollar, so same as Canada.
Jesse D. O'Neill
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