| Author
| Message
|
    
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 621
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 10:24 am: |       |
It is approaching the 89th anniversary of the Lusitania disaster, on 7th May 1915. Having just returned from a trip to County Cork, Ireland, I was very disappointed with the distinct lack of memorials to Lusitania in Kinsale, the nearest town to the scene of the sinking.
Despite the fact that rescue boats from Kinsale were amongst the first on the scene, we found just one - the circular memorial on the road leading to the Old Head of Kinsale, similar in shape to a millstone. Not very impressive. We particularly were not impressed with the fact that we could not even walk on the Old Head as it is now shut off to us pee-ons because the site is now occupied by a private golf course.
In Kinsale town itself there is no memorial at all. We did find two graves in the 12th century churchyard containing the bodies of three passengers - an unknown woman and two men named Craddock (?) and Chamberlain but there were not even headstones and there was no special marker at all.
The tourist office told us that there were memorials in Cobh (ex-Queenstown) including the mass grave of 150 victims. As time was running short we only had an hour or so in Cobh but it seems just from the little that we saw there that a return trip is definitely warranted.
Are there any other Lusitania memorials out there?
Cheers,
Boz
|
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 3:32 pm: | |
Boz, considering the magnitude of the event, it's quite amazing that there are so few memorials in the area. The only really Lusitania related spot is the Old Church Cemetery, just outside Cobh, where most of the burials were performed.
I think that the Lusitania Bar is still in Cobh - although it's a couple of years since I was there last.
Kinsale is these days, geared up to the tourist (especially the prices!) it's a charming little town.
The woman buried in the grave at St. Multose Church in Kinsale, is Margaret McKenzie Shineman
who was returning to visit her family in Lochcarron, Scotland, having been married in New York on the 19th April. Her husband, James, was also a victim of the sinking and is buried at Carrigaholt, Co. Clare. |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 622
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 4:32 pm: | |
So the poor woman has a name! We were so p***** off at the state of the graves that we wanted to mark them with something but we couldn't even nick any flowers off any other graves as they were all pretty much in the same condition. It's a crying shame really.
Thanks Geoff. I'm glad that this poor woman is at least remembered by some of us.
Cheers,
Boz |
Cliff Mark Barry
Member
Username: cb139
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 11:41 pm: | |
Boz,
did you go inside the church? if remember correctly there is a memorial window to the peole interred in the cemetery. Also interred near Margaret Shineman are two stewards George Cranston & Richard Chamberlain who, unlike Margaret Shineman have their names engraved on the grave surround
Cliff |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2600
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2004 - 3:38 am: | |
Hallo Boz - I didn't get a chance to visit the graves in Kinsale (by the time we got to Kinsale the others in the party had about had their fill of liner history), although we did drive out to the Old Head and visited the memorial there. Did you see any of the 'Titanic Trail' in Cobh when you were there? It's a bit of a mixed bag - Titanic, Lusitania and general heritage sites marked by plaques. Presuming you saw the large and very moving Lusitania memorial when you were there - I rather like the somewhat more earthy, less etheral angel that surmounts it. Spent a lot of time up in the Old Church Cemetary looking at the mass graves and the individual graves - was terribly beautiful in the October twilight, with the light streaming between the yews around the mass graves.
My visit to Cobh last November was a flying one - am considering popping over there when I'm in the UK next April. Might be worth getting a gathering together. |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 623
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2004 - 8:58 am: | |
Morning Inger,
A get-together in Cobh would be a very good idea, methinks. We got caught up in the Kinsale Sevens, then spent ages looking for a non-existent bridge and arrived in Cobh about 2 in the afternoon (the flight left at 6.45). Only had time to do a quick tour of the Queenstown Story in the old rail station and a drink in the Titanic Bar (the old White Star office). We saw the Lusitania memorial directly opposite and the Lusitania and Mauretania bars nearby but had precious little time to see anything else. We've already set a preliminary date to return to the area in September but I can't see the problem with going again in April. Direct flights are so cheap that it would be rude not to take advantage!
Hello Cliff,
No, we didn't go inside the church. There was a woman just locking the gates up when we got there but she let us in anyway. I assume the church was locked up too. Even she didn't know where the graves were. We were baffled by the lack of interest to be honest and that seemed to be the general feeling around Kinsale, one of complete apathy.
So, who's up for a couple of days in Queenstown then?
Cheers,
Boz
|
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 6, 2004 - 9:42 pm: | |
Hi Iain, Geoff, Cliff, & Inger,
I was pretty annoyed when I saw Iain's first message, and his second didn't improve my mood, but rather than act hastily, I have taken the time to formulate this reply on behalf of the people of Kinsale, Cobh, etc., which may explain some of the matters raised. I apologise if it is a bit long.
First of all, the distinct lack of memorials in the Kinsale area.
1. There is the Lusitania memorial erected on the Old Head of Kinsale. Designed by Stuart Williamson, this memorial was erected by a committee of local people at their own expense. Most people like the memorial, understanding the design and message contained in it, but obviously Iain has a negative view of it, which is his right. On the anniversary of the sinking, May 7th., these same local people gather for a ceremony on this site. I myself have attended on many occasions but will miss tomorrows event due to work commitments.
2. Kinsale Museum. This is the old Town Hall where the original Inquest was held. There are many artefacts from the Lusitania, including a deck chair, on display. This building has changed little from the time of the Inquest.
3. St Multose Church & Cemetery. This is the church mentioned in the above messages. As this is a very old and historical site, the people responsible for its upkeep do not wish to have it spoiled by any unnecessary or inappropriate memorials, etc. Despite the fact that crewman Cranston's name is incorrect, these people will not allow the grave to be interferred with to have the correct name recorded.
4. The numerous cemeteries in Cork City where many of the bodies of recovered victims are buried in marked and well maintained graves.
5. Cobh, formerly Queenstown, has many sites. Cobh Museum, Cobh Heritage Centre, the Old Cemetery, the memorial in the town centre, the various building used to accommodate the survivors, and those that housed the bodies prior to identification, burial, or shipment to their families, bars, etc.
6. Other locations along the western coast of Ireland where bodies were recovered and interred, some of which are marked, others not, or have since disappeared.
If Iain had done his homework properly, he would have discovered many of these. They are not State secrets.
In relation to not being allowed to walk on the Old Head of Kinsale. Yes, the area is now a golf course, which mindless morons entered on a number of occasions, causing damage to the facilities, thus the owners have had to restrict access. If he had asked the staff, and explained the purpose of his visit, they would have done their best to facilitate him as they have done for me and many others.
In relation to the indifference of the people and the lack of memorials in the general area.
Firstly, the people living along the coast were not wealthy and did not have the money to be erecting memorials all over the place at a whim. People did all they could to recover the bodies, and give whatever comfort and assistance they could to the survivors. Various religious communities made space in their cemeteries for victims, burying many of them at their own expense. Food and clothing was donated by people who were living on the poverty line themselves. A common memorial was erected in Cobh, representing the sentiments of all the Irish people, because this was the centre of activity in the aftermath, and therefore the most appropriate location.
I could go on, and probably will, depending on messages which may follow.
The point is that I feel the tone and nature of Iain's message is unfair because he is critical of not finding enough, when he did not come prepared. If he went to Kinsale for the Rugby, then he should have stuck with that and left the Lusitania and Titanic until he had sufficent time to devote to them. If any of you intend to come to Ireland and visit the sites relevant to the Lusitania or Titanic, prepare yourselves before travelling. There are many people in the general areas of Cobh and Kinsale who are willing to assist interested people in finding the sites and getting information.
If a group of you intend visiting, why not compile a proper itinerary?
Regards
Peter |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2613
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 7, 2004 - 4:09 am: | |
Hallo Peter, and many thanks for that detailed reply. I'm certain Boz - who is really a very gentle, kindly bloke - did not intend to cause you offense.
I love the entire area around Cobh and Kinsale, and regard my visit there in 1999 as one of the highlights of my years in Europe. I spent years on and off afterwards trying to organise something with friends to visit with Dubliner Senan Molony, who is always an advocate of the beauties of County Cork (he once attempted to get an international group of visitors to the area together, and has organised other gatherings there, I understand). I was only sorry that my last visit there was so brief.
I found the people of Cobh and Kinsale more than helpful when I asked questions - it's something universally Irish, but we passed a few great nights in the pubs and restaurants speaking to folks who were welcoming and friendly. At one point we had to leave my father, who was not in great health, in one of the pubs when we went looking for the Lusitania graves - he had a marvellous time and was well looked after.
If I did not state it strongly enough above, I'll say so now - I think the Cobh memorial to the Lusitania is one of the best commemorative statues for a maritime tragedy I've seen anywhere. Rather than an ethereal creature that is too divine to have a touch of the human, even in mourning, she is earthy, real and poignant. The statues that flank her are extraordinarily expressive of the anguish and grief of the people who tried to rescue the survivors.
If we do get together - and I've been chatting to the folks who are doing the trip with me and they're keen on a return to Ireland - we will certainly compile a proper itinerary and take into account your suggestions.
Cheers -
Inger |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 626
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 7, 2004 - 10:26 am: | |
Hello Peter,
You are right - we didn't do our homework properly and I will take the flak for that full on the chin. It was a flying visit and our "itinerary" was based primarily on a previous visit by my mate.
I was very much looking forward to visiting the Old Head of Kinsale and was very disappointed to realise that it is now a private golf course. The woman at the gate wasn't very forthcoming at all - in fact she was shaking her head and slamming the gates shut as we stepped out of the car. Not very facilitating at all in my opinion. We got no joy from her and when we asked if we could just take a look if we kept out of the way we were met with a terse "No!" (which made me bristle straight away). Maybe I should have reassured her we were not mindless morons, as a few others apparently had been in the past. I suppose had we phoned ahead earlier we could have had access but as I said this was a flying visit and there was no golf course there on the earlier trip by my mate, who said that on that occasion you could have walked at least to the light house. We discovered later that the Irish government had apparently had the opportunity to buy the land as a potential memorial but had declined, saying that they didn't think there would be much interest.
As for the memorial near the entrance to the golf course - I did not expect Marble Arch or anything but I suppose it was nothing like I imagined. I guess I didn't "get" the simplicity of the design.
I also had no idea that this memorial was paid for by by local people. Fair play to them. By the way, what happens on the 7th May at the site? Is there a reading of names, hymns sung?
With regards to Kinsale Museum and St Multose Church and cemetery - we specifically asked at the Tourist Information for sites to visit relating to Lusitania in Kinsale and I'm sorry but they did not even mention the memorial at the Old Head, which we had visited the day before. It was a taxi driver who told us about the two graves in Kinsale itself and I'd read a single paragraph about the Town Hall in a leaflet, which made mention of the fact that it was where the Inquest was held but didn't even mention any of the artefacts, merely stated the Inquest connection.
As I have stated previously, we were in Cobh for only a very short time and I've re-read my previous posts and yours and I don't feel that you need to speak on behalf of the people of Cobh. Unless you mis-read precious little time as precious little to see. Having only ever seen black and white pictures of the town I was pleasantly surprised to see what a colourful place it was, as are many of the towns and villages in Ireland that we passed through. It is amazing what a lick of paint can do to a row of buildings and this inspires me to paint my house bright yellow! If there had been so little to see in Cobh why would we be bothering to return in September?
The sites that we saw or didn't see may not have been State secrets but they sure weren't promoted by the people of Kinsale. I'm sorry but that's the way we saw it. The majority of people we talked to either didn't know (nobody knows everything), didn't want to know (perhaps they want Kinsale just to be known for something other than a major maritime disaster - can't blame them) or didn't care. Our visit to Ireland was intended to be a break with a visit to some Titanic and Lusitania related sites and a drive around the Ring of Kerry and Healy Pass in between. We didn't know until the day before we arrived (I called ahead to confirm the B&B) that the Kinsale Sevens was in town. I don't even like rugby but the atmosphere over the weekend was fantastic. In terms of what we intended to do the trip was a success and we had an absolutely lovely time. The people we met were so genuinely friendly and helpful and chatty. That's why we're going back, Peter.
I'm sorry if I offended you Peter and anyone else who may come from the area. That was not my intention at all. I only wanted to share with others what I had seen and experienced. In Kinsale I saw very little. That's the way it happened. I'm sorry. We intend to go back later this year and I will obviously take all your points into consideration and look at everything in a new light.
If we do make the trip next April to Cobh and Kinsale maybe I can buy you a pint of Guiness?
Cheers,
Boz
|
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 2:02 am: | |
Hi Inger & Boz,
Many thanks for your kind comments.
First of all, in relation to the annual commemoration ceremony at the Old Head of Kinsale, usually the proceedings begin at 7.30pm and depending on commitments on the day, members of the Irish Navy, Irish Coastguard, the local lighthouse keeper, members of the original committee who erected the memorial, and local people, many of whom are descended from people who assisted in the recovery of survivors and victims, or people who witnessed the sinking from the headlands, gather to remember. Somebody reads a short account about the final voyage, interception and sinking by the U-boat, and the aftermath of the tragedy. Over the past number of years, Paddy O'Sullivan has recounted experiences of survivors and local witnesses from his files. A wreath is laid at the memorial, and anyone who wishes to speak is invited to do so. Afterwards, the party adjourn to the nearby Speckled Door pub for a few hot whiskeys and a chat. Occasionally a relative of somebody who had sailed on the Lusitania, at some point in time, turns up, which adds a new dimension to the conversation. The affair is very dignified and low key, and is just a gesture by ordinary people who want to pay their respects to all those who lost their lives or otherwise suffered as a result of the tragedy.
In relation to the problems with gaining access to the Old Head, when the previous owner of the land offered it for sale, a group of local people proposed purchasing it, but could not agree on what to do with it, so this plan fell through. It was suggested that the Government buy it, but again, nobody could offer any valid reason as to why, so this plan also fell.
Two brothers bought the land and developed a golf links which is described by golfers as one of the best in the world. The land was always in private ownership, but when the golf links began to prosper, "new age travellers, hippies", call them what you like, decided that they should have a claim on a right of way and laid siege to the area on a number of occasions. These people claimed that they had enjoyed walking along the Old Head for years, but on many of the occasions protests were organised, I, along with many other people living in the locality at the time, were being approached by these people, seeking directions to the Old Head. Most were from foreign european countries, who had never been in the area before, but were invited to attend the protest by their subversive friends. A number of break-ins to the golf links occurred, and much damage was caused. Prior to this people were being admitted to the area to walk freely along the road to the lighthouse, but obviously that changed when these events began.
The easiest way to gain access to the Old Head is to be introduced at the gate by a local person known to, and trusted by the staff.
Boz, if you stood at the memorial on the Old Head and looked out to the sea, due south, just short of the horizon is where the Lusitania went down. The only thing that has changed in the 89 years since then, as you look from that point, is the replacement of the old gates in the ancient fortress wall. No buildings have been erected along your line of sight, and the golf club building are all built in natural hollows and depressions making them invisible to see until you are within feet of them. Also, my own view on the memorial itself is that the more simple it was kept, the longer it would last. This is due primarily to the harsh gales and heavy rain that frequently occur in the area, and which would quickly erode and deface any elaborate statue. Also an elaborate work which could be seen for some distance, would only increase the risk of vandals visiting and leaving their ugly and mindless marks.
As usual, I am rambling on, so I will cut the massage short and just say that anyone who intends to visit the area would be best advised to contact somebody who lives in or knows the locality, to learn the location of the sights they wish to visit and clear directions on how to get to them.
I look forward to meeting any of you who come to visit and Boz, I will take you up on the offer of a pint.
Cheers
Peter
|
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 2:14 am: | |
Hi all,
I forgot to say that I was unable to attend the ceremony this evening, but it was due to be held as scheduled.
I tried to ring a friend who was attending, after the time I expected everything to have concluded, but failed.
I can only reason that a very serious discussion commenced in the pub, where many knowledgeably figures had gathered, and he got lost in the "conversation". I will try to contact him tomorrow when he has recovered from any ill-effects.
Peter |
Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 273
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 8:38 am: | |
Dear Peter,
My Family come from both Belfast and Galway and if the possibility of a trip arose The Old Head would be a must. It seems crazy that the coast can be held in private exclusive ownership barring public access.
Over here in New Zealand we are embroiled in vigorous debate about who owns the seabed and foreshore including much hostility to the state of affairs similar to the above.
Cobh and Kinsale are as important to me as Harland and Wolf, Falls road and Corumdulagh; Loch Corrib. It would be something to be a part of the memorial events there or at Liverpool.
with kind regards
Martin |
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 2:17 pm: | |
Hi Martin
The seabed and coastline of Ireland, with a few exceptions, are the property of the State, and most land owners do not mind people crossing their lands to access the coast. The mindless vandalism that occurred at the golf links caused the owners to put the present restrictions in place.
I personally know both the past and present owners, and they were always very accommodating to people visiting the area, especially Lusitania buffs. As I have previously stated, access can still be gained by genuine visitors, but a little planning and advance notice are required.
I have read about the Lusitania Memorial Events held in Liverpool, and hopefully I will be present at one of them, but Liverpool is a lot different to Cobh and Kinsale. Firstly, Cunard and all the other large shipping companies are long gone from this area, and to my knowledge have not had any contact with events concerning the Lusitania in Ireland for many years, whereas Cunard are represented, and involved, in the Liverpool events.
Basically, the Old Head event is a small affair, held by various local interested parties and individuals at their own expense. There is not much expense, the purchasing of a wreath, and a few Euro in your pocket to have a drink in the pub afterwards, is about all it amounts to. It is a nice, simple, and respectful memorial event, and anyone who happens to pass along at the time it is happening, is welcome to join in. Any of you who have occasion to be in Ireland on May 7 of any future year can put it in their diary.
Regards to all,
Peter |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 627
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 9:14 am: | |
Morning Peter,
Thanks for clearing a few things up. We had the photographs back from the trip on Friday, very good 'uns actually. On reflection the memorial doesn't look as plain as I remember and the coastline around there is spectacular.
I spent the anniversary of the Lusitania reading the Hoehling book on the train down to London. Did you find out if any serious discussion went on in the Speckled Door after the memorial service?
Cheers,
Boz
|
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 8:49 pm: | |
Hi Iain
Sorry for the delay in replying, but I have been busy of late.
About 35 people attended the recent ceremony at the Old Head of Kinsale, the wreath being laid by a local WW2 veteran who served with the Royal Navy, and who survived the sinking of a number of vessels he served on as a result of being torpedoed. He spent a number of years in a POW camp in Italy as a result, I am informed.
Paddy O'Sullivan attended at the ceremony, and afterwards bravely led the charge to the Speckled Door for refreshments. I have no doubt that he entertained those in attendance, relating stories about the Lusitania and other shipwrecks in the area, as he does so often.
Start making your plans to make a visit folks!!
Peter |
Terry Binns
Member
Username: stomper
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 10:24 pm: | |
If anyone is in Cobh (great place),looking for Lusitania memorabilia go to the museum,it is in the old Church of Scotland on the left at the top of the hill as you drop down into Cobh. there you can see the Log of the German Sub.and other interesting facts. |
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 2:02 pm: | |
Hi All,
I have just got word that plans are well advanced on this years commemoration ceremony to be held at the memorial at the Old Head of Kinsale.
Proceedings commence at 3pm on Saturday, May 7th, and any of you who wish to attend will be more than welcome.
Due to the fact that this is the 90th anniversary of the sinking of the Lusitania, a special effort is being made to make this an especially memorable occasion.
Any one who requires further details can contact me or post here.
Regards,
Peter |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 844
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 3:16 pm: | |
I'm going to miss it by five weeks! Bugger! We'll be in Cobh this coming weekend. Really looking forward to it.
Cheers,
Boz |
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 3:47 pm: | |
Hi Boz,
I hope all goes well on your trip to Cobh this weekend and that you have your itinerary planned out to maximise your time there.
Perhaps you might get a cheap flight in early May and we might see you at the Old Head of Kinsale after all???
Regards,
Peter |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 132
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 7:42 pm: | |
So, time is running out... anyone going to the 90th Anniversary commemorations? (unfortunately I will probably be pacing the corridor of a maternity ward at the time...)
Boz, did you go to Cobh?
Inger wrote earlier:
quote: think the Cobh memorial to the Lusitania is one of the best commemorative statues for a maritime tragedy I've seen anywhere. Rather than an ethereal creature that is too divine to have a touch of the human, even in mourning, she is earthy, real and poignant. The statues that flank her are extraordinarily expressive of the anguish and grief of the people who tried to rescue the survivors.
This is very perspicacious of you, Ing.
The memorial has suffered many indignities, but it is regarded as an absolute masterpiece by many, including some of sculpture's most cultured cognoscenti.
Jerome Connor's work has been officially compared, by former curator Domhnall O'Murchada, to Michaelangelo's David.
That might be an exaggeration, if so, it is not an altogether wild one, as the realised vision is one of real pathos and empathy.
Perhaps it is ironically its very central location that leads people to throw it only a cursory glance - as if it were just another piece of civic furniture.
Connor, incidentally, would have preferred not to have had an Angel. The American funding committee insisted on it. |
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 9:43 pm: | |
Plans are well advanced for the ceremony at the Old Head of Kinsale. I can not comment on any of the others, if there are any?
Peter |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2010
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:08 pm: | |
>I can not comment on any of the others, if there are any?
If you are in the neighborhood of Madison and East 50th, feel free to drop in, Peter  but, as I recall you have other plans.... |
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 6:53 am: | |
The annual Liverpool ceremony, held at the ship's propellor, will take place Saturday 7th May, although it appears to be very low key considering it's a major anniversary. |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 856
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 9:40 am: | |
Morning all,
We arrived at Ringaskiddy, outside Cork, on Good Friday morning, delayed off Roche's Point due to thick fog. The journey across from Swansea via the MV Superferry was a nightmare of Poseidon Adventure proportions. Well, not quite, but I had about half an hour's sleep through the night owing to the precarious angles, creaks and groans the ship was being pitched and rolled to. Having a cabin that overlooked the fo'cs'le just under the bridge probably didn't help as we were right at the front, whereas I assume it would have been gentler midships. All night I couldn't get the image of the Estonia out of my head and imagined having to run down the corridor in half-darkness, with just me underpants on, in a vain attempt to get to a lifeboat.
We then took a train from Cork into Cobh, arriving at about 11-ish (Michael Martin's Titanic Trail was about to depart). Our room wasn't ready at the Commodore Hotel, overlooking Cobh harbour and furthermore, there was a pre-planned power cut throughout the whole island. Some essential electrical maintenance work was being carried out and power went out at 3am that morning and was due to return by 4pm (it eventually came on again at 5.50pm) (10 mins after I finished a cold shower as I couldn't wait any longer). So we decided to visit the Lusitania graves first.
A walk to the top of the town and then down the hill the other side and we were at the graveyard.
It appears new grave markers have been added to the corner of the cemetary holding the Lusitania victims, most of them with naval connections that we were told wouldn't have been possible before the Peace Agreement.
Despite the lack of power in the main town, SuperValu, which is a new supermarket build on a field adjoining the sports pitch across the road from the graveyard, was thriving. Which was good because we were starving and had no cash. Thankfully the cashpoint was working and the cafe was open.
Then we were back in town for a visit to a few pubs. Except none were open - officially, that is. Being Good Friday in Ireland no pubs were supposed to be open. Is this law or a religous observance? Anyway, that's when I went back to the room to have a cold shower. We did get a drink but we were led down to a dark and dank underground room with a long, empty bar except for a barman and lone customer. We had two pints apiece and decided we'd have a meal at the hotel and then have an early night as we'd had very little sleep the night before.
The next day we embarked on Michael Martin's walking tour of Cobh on his Titanic Trail. We'd passed many of the sites he pointed out, the day before, and it was interesting to hear why they were included on the trail. Having heard that the Titanic wasn't visible from the town because it was anchored some way out at Roche's Point, I was intrigued to learn that the Titanic was, in fact, visible from several locations within Cobh. albeit not from the central area istself. We were told that once the tenders had left the White Star Line pier with 123 passengers, friends and relatives of those about to leave Ireland made their way to these vantage points and waved their last goodbyes.
That afternoon, knowing we couldn't go very far because of the train and ferry schedules, we settled for lunch at one of the tables slung out in front of the Commodore. Then we trudged our way back to the station, back to Cork and Ringaskiddy and home.
A very enjoyable time was had and we learned a few tidbits to add to the Titanic story.
I'd love to go back to Irealnd to coincide with the Lusitania ceremony but I've been roped into seeing Maria Stuarda in Wolverhampton, of all places.
Cheers,
Boz |
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:26 pm: | |
Hi Boz,
Once ever, and only once, did I travel on the Swansea/Cork "Superferry. It was an awful experience, and once was more than enough times to suffer through the horror of it. There are no stabalizers on that vessel and she pitches and rolls in the calmest of weather.
In relation to the pubs, by law, there are two days in the year when pubs are supposed to stay closed in Ireland - Good Friday and Christmas Day. There are exceptions for residents of hotels, club members, rail & air passengers, and a few others. I will not bore you with the details, but that is the law.
In relation to the grave stones, I do not think the peace process has anything to do with them. I am familiar with the markers you mention, and these are a standard type erected by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission throughout the world. As a general rule cemeteries and individual graves are respected in Ireland, regardless of religious, ethnic or nationality issues. There are many similar grave stones in cemeteries throughout Ireland, marking the graves of Irish men and women who served in the British Armed Forces, especially during both World Wars. Desecration of graves is condemned by all, including the various "former" para-military organizations.
I am glad you enjoyed your visit to Cobh, and I look forward to seeing you sometime at a Lusitania ceremony, or otherwise.
Regards,
Peter |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 858
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 8:49 am: | |
Peter,
You're absolutely correct in calling the Superferry a "horror". Never have I had such a disturbing journey. I can only liken it to a prelude to a disaster movie. You have all the signs of what's to come - glasses sliding off tables, people lurching forward, backwards and sideways, banging into walls and falling over everyone, bottles rattling like mad on the shelves in the bar, the sea crashing over the bow, cupboard doors and drawers flying open, pale-faced and worried looking crew pressing themselves up against the wall in terror. Oh yes, it was all there. An experience which I don't think I'll be repeating anytime soon.
Cheers,
Boz |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:17 pm: | |
Sounds exciting. Must book soon. |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 96
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 5:27 pm: | |
We are kind of slackers here in the US- no official memorials planned. Though I may visit the grave of survivor Elizabeth Hampshire which is 5 miles from my house.
" God will get you for that Walter! " |
Tom Lear
Member
Username: tlear
Post Number: 59
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 9:28 am: | |
Would there be anything in the news or media? I wonder what notice there was in 1980 on the 75th anniversary, if any........ |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 97
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 2:56 pm: | |
Hi Tom
Will be catching up with you in a few days to finish up where we left off. There were anniversary articles where home town papers would round up local survivors. Of course not to the extent as they did with Titanic survivors, but there were some.
" God will get you for that Walter! " |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11860
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 3:10 pm: | |
>>I wonder what notice there was in 1980 on the 75th anniversary, if any........<<
Excepting maybe a meet among a few remaining survivors, I doubt there was much attention paid to it at all. Titanic seems to be the pop culture disaster of choice on my side of the pond. Lusitania appears almost completely forgotten. If anything appears in the newspapers, it's almost as a footnote.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2017
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 10:43 pm: | |
Well, in May 1980 there was a rebroadcast of the Murder by Misadventure on PBS. Several survivor interviews, which I did not save, ran in the papers. |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 468
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 2:36 am: | |
"Desecration of graves is condemned by all, including the various "former" para-military organizations."
This needs some qualification. The Lusitania Memorial at Cobh was desecrated for months if not years by IRA propaganda placards. Can we be reassured that this desecration has now ceased?
Noel |
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 11:25 pm: | |
Hi Noel,
I am including a recent photo, taken by myself a few weeks ago, showing the Lusitania Memorial as it is today.
Graffitti is common all over the world, and whereas the Memorial is "blemish free" at present, one can never tell when mindless morons are going to strike with their can of paint.
As a general rule, memorials are left alone in Ireland. To my knowledge, any attacks on monuments or graves in Ireland in the recent past have been the work of drunken louts and not organized attacks by para-militaries, or other organized groups.
Regards,
Peter |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 156
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 9:34 am: | |
>>The Lusitania Memorial at Cobh was desecrated for months if not years by IRA propaganda placards.<<
I'm sorry, but this is a wild, nonsensical and
untrue claim.
 |
Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 315
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 11:27 pm: | |
Hi Senan,
thanks for the photo of the Cobh memorial detail.
Erie is along way from where I am so I don't have a chance to get to Kinsale head. BTW i have a copy of your book and it ranks as one of the best.
If anyone can post photos of the memorial service at the Old Head I would be most grateful.
hi all
Martin |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3841
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:19 am: | |
Never saw any desecration on my visits to the Memorial. On the contary, it was treated with utter respect. |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 470
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 3:10 am: | |
"I'm sorry, but this is a wild, nonsensical and
untrue claim."
I'm not surprised you say this; the desecration I refer to seems to have been airbrushed out of local history.
It is a matter of record that the Lusitania memorial at Cobh was hijacked by the IRA circa 1981. They obscured it by surrounding it with placards referring to the deceased hunger striker Bobby Sands.
I'm confident an examination of the contemporaneous Cork Examiner will give confirmation.
Despite protests from affronted visitors and others, the local authority failed to take any remedial action for months if not years. Whether this failure to act stemmed from intimidation or partisan equivocation is not now clear.
Perhaps I go back too far.
Noel |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 162
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 9:23 am: | |
Noel, you said "months and years."
The actions of your Government in 1981 convulsed this whole country. For a short period.
The Lusitania memorial is in the centre of Cobh.
It is the same as suggesting that Anti-War protestors had "desecrated" Lord Nelson's statue in Trafalgar square.
The specific allegation is untrue - the Lusitania memorial has never been a focus, per se, for such activity. |
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 11:50 am: | |
Hi All,
Here is the photo of the Cobh Lusitania Memorial I was attempting to post a few days ago, but failed because it was too big. As you can see, it is in good condition and not vandalised or desecrated.
Owen, I will be attending the ceremony at the Old Head tomorrow and I will post photos when I get an opportunity during the next week or so.
Regards,
Peter
 |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 164
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:11 pm: | |
The 90th anniversary of the tragedy will be also be commemorated tomorrow when the Courtmacsherry lifeboat (which went out in 1915) sails from Barry's Point just before noon. It will make the 18km voyage south to the wrecksite.
On board will be representatives of the clergy, the Bandon War Memorial committee and various dignitaries.
The lifeboat will anchor over the wreck site for a wreath-laying ceremony at the exact time the torpedo struck in memory of those who perished.
More ceremonies involving the FCA, coastguard and RNLI, will follow at the memorial later. A 91-year-old survivor from Wales will be present.
Martin, thank you very much for your kind words about "Lusitania: An Irish Tragedy." I tried to make it as different as possible from others already out there, with nothing about the "deadly rendezvous," as it were.
As they said on another thread, is 100% Frohman-free, low in Vanderbilt (using only legend-removed ingredient), contains no saccharine and I see from the index was made without Hubbard.
There may be nut traces.
Regards,
Senan |
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1043
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:37 pm: | |
There are "Nut traces" alright - just look who the author is!
Geoff |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 167
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 1:13 pm: | |
I deeply resemble that remark...
 |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 119
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 2:16 pm: | |
Hello Peter,
Can't wait to see the photos. Make sure that you are in at least one of them. As I mentioned before, we are such slackers here in the US as there is nothing major planned. The only thing I can think of is the 3 part lecture being given in East Aurora, New York.
Senan, I won't get that image out of my head all day!
" God will get you for that Walter! " |
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 3:13 pm: | |
And that photo of Senan is taken from his photogenic side!
Geoff |
Peter Kelly
Member
Username: pgk1
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 3:13 pm: | |
Hi Mike,
I am a bit camera shy, and prefer to be behind the lens, but I will see what I can do.
Peter |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 121
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 3:47 pm: | |
Hello Geoff
Don't tell me there are some 'half-shell'
photos of Senan out there as well?
" God will get you for that Walter! " |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2029
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 11:40 pm: | |
Peter: I thought you said that I was the smart one, Mike the funny one, and you the good looking one in our research group.....surprised to read that you are camera shy. Or was the order reversed, I forget.... |
Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 320
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 1:18 am: | |
On this day in 1915...
Peter thanks for for your offer to record the event. on the other side of the world I feel quite removed from the scene. Do you know of any photos taken of the coast from the spot where she went down as these would help my artwork. I read from Senan that the Courtmacsherry lifeboat will go out. I hope they get "Lusitania weather" for it.
Senan thanks for your commemts re my post, I hope all is well in that maternity hospital you spoke of otherwise i hope you make it to the Old Head or the lifeboat.
siochain go an uile
Martin |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 471
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 1:23 am: | |
"The specific allegation is untrue - the Lusitania memorial has never been a focus, per se, for such activity."
I'm afraid we are in dispute. I distinctly remember reading the contemporaneous press reports accompanied by photographs showing the memorial literally hedged around with placards.
I would surmise that according to the limited reasonings of the IRA at the time, the structure and its message would have been perceived as "English" and therefore fair game.
The press reports and the photography no doubt remain in the press archives to be referenced. As this costs money I'll not bother for the present.
I suggest you make discreet enquiries when next in Cobh - but you may find the locals somewhat coy on the subject.
Noel |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 171
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 9:02 am: | |
Jeez, Noel, give it a rest.
You have a bee in your bonnet. Wanna know something? I went on hunger strike marches in 1981. Do you consider me an IRA man? There were hundreds of thousands inflamed by Margaret Thatcher's attitudes, as you experienced in Britain in 1984 and at other periods during her illustrious reign.
There were demonstrations everywhere. The Lusy memorial may have been used because it was central, and they could stand up on it.
It is not a case of the monument being perceived as English. That is so jingoistic as to be ridiculous.
An Phoblacht, the mouthpiece of the IRA, is reviewing my Lusitania book this month. It will be interesting to see what they say about it.
Maybe they will not be as narrow-minded as you suppose.
Martin Ferris, named by our Minister for Justice as a member of the Army Council of the IRA, had a grand-uncle who died on the Lusitania.
I sit down and have lunch occasionally with Martin, who was jailed for donkey's years for spiriting huge shipments of arms across the Atlantic for the IRA in the Marita Ann.
He is a very nice bloke, as many of these individuals are. Martin McGuinness is a lovely man, as it happens. They just believe, or did believe, in killing people for political ends.
So Noel, I regret you introduced this note into the discussion. You seem to feel the need to prove you are right. I have no doubt that they stood on the steps and waved their silly placards - but I have been living in this country for over 40 years and I say for the last time that the Lusitania memorial was not "desecrated" for "months and years" by the IRA.
So your specific allegation remains untrue, and I wish you had the good grace to withdraw it.
Regards OM,
Senan |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 172
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 10:26 am: | |
quote:I would surmise that according to the limited reasonings of the IRA at the time, the structure and its message would have been perceived as "English" and therefore fair game.
I too, remember seeing media coverage of an event in the 1980s. Arthur Scargill addressed NUM members in Trafalgar Square by megaphone during the Miners' Strike.
There were miners sitting astride the great lions at the base, defacing this historic monument with their "Coal Not Dole" placards. I'm not sure if it went on for months or years, but I very much doubt it.
Why did the NUM single out this centrepiece of a central square in central London? Was it because it was, ahem, central?
Why no, it must have been because of their "limited understanding" of what Lord Nelson signified. It cannot have been Nelson's Englishness, as they were English also.
He must obviously have represented the Establishment. I conclude therefore that the Miners were anti-Establishment, anti-Monarchist, traitorously pro-French, anarchist, nihilist and all the rest of it. So when the police cracked miners' heads, they were acting in defence of our most basic freedoms.
They were standing up for Lord Nelson.
Am I right? Or do I have the "limited understanding" that I ascribe to agitators in another country?
I can quite see why a photo of hunger strike placards on a Lusitania memorial would be printed in a British newspaper at the time. It is a lovely piece of supremely subtle spin. The type of thing that would stick in the mind. It is a true image, but everything it conveys is untrue.
Much better than a picture of demonstrators outside an embassy or circling the street. As I say, subtle.
The careful truth that tells the blacker lie.
Meanwhile, to address points raised in your quote, above:
Was the structure perceived as "English"?
It was designed by an Irish sculptor who also did a famous realisation of Irish rebel Robert Emmet of 1803, and, separately, American patriots.
For this latter reason Jerome Connor was commissioned by an American fundraising committee to carry out the work. The money had to be supplemented by the townspeople of Cobh and the Irish Arts Council to enable it to be completed. Nobody else paid for it.
Could the monument's message be perceived as English?
The monument shows the Angel of Peace surmounting a representation of two anguished fishermen. The main message says "Siochain in Ainm De" - Peace in God's Name. There is an inscription in Latin under the fishermen saying "Laborare Est Orare," to work is to pray, reflecting their practical efforts at assistance.
A further inscription is seen above the fishermen's heads in the photo posted above. It is in memory of ALL who died on the Lusitania, "and in the cause of universal and lasting peace."
On this 90th Anniversary, putting all politics and sectional viewpoints aside, it remains the noblest of sentiments. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3845
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 10:51 am: | |
quote:I went on hunger strike marches in 1981.
A belated round of applause, Senan - somewhere around 24 years too late, but heartfelt nonetheless.
Who knows - if I'd been a wee bit older in 1981, or on the other side of the Atlantic, I might have been displaying placards in the middle of Cobh at the Memorial, or in Trafalgar Square against the Nelson column. Doesn't mean I bear any personal grudge against either Nelson or theLusitania victims, but that these are community focal points (as monuments in D.C. have been the focal point for various demonstrations in the US without any malice being felt against Lincoln et al).
Perhaps clambering up on the base of the Nelson memorial during the 2003 World Cup, with hundreds of other jubilant Brits, also qualifies as a 'desecration' of the monument to a man I deeply admire. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3846
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 10:58 am: | |
quote:Owen, I will be attending the ceremony at the Old Head tomorrow and I will post photos when I get an opportunity during the next week or so.
Looking forward to seeing the photos, Peter. I hope you have a great day for it...not unlike the day she went down. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3847
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 11:17 am: | |
Lusitania memorial, Old Head of Kinsale
 |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3848
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 11:18 am: | |
View of memorial top:
 |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3849
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 11:21 am: | |
quote:Alfred Scott Witherbee Jr
Born June 27th 1911
Died May 7th 1915
A Victim of the "Lusitania"
Foully Murdered by Germany
 |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3850
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 11:23 am: | |
quote:In Tender Memory of
Inez and George Ley Vernon
Both Young, Beautiful and Gifted
Victims of the Lusitania Crime
May 7th 1915
 |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 122
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 11:45 am: | |
Hello Inger-
Nice to see you in 'Lusitania Land'. I didn't realize you were interested? Is it more the ship or the people. The picture of the top of the memorial is great- I have never seen that before. Thank you very much for sharing that and the pictures of the stones for Alfred Witherbee, Jr and George Butler Vernon. Believe it or not, had George and Alfred survived and Inez not died shortly afterwards- they all would have been related when Alfred's mother Trixie married Inez's brother! Ironic!
Mike
" God will get you for that Walter! " |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2031
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 12:38 am: | |
Odd too, how Alfred ended up buried at the foot of the grave holding George's body and Inez's cremains....forming a family plot, so to speak,
before they were family
For those reading along at home who might not know the story, Inez Vernon was the older sister of Rita Jolivet and a classical violinist of some repute-she had performed at the Met in NYC, did recitals in Paris and Vienna, and became friends with Nicholas II of Russia's younger brother Michael after she appeared in St. Petersburg. Her husband George, whom she had met in 1902 when she was about 19, was a tenor turned
arms merchant aboard the Lusitania en route to Russia to complete an arms transaction involving the sale of 3,000,000 (I believe)rifles, engineered by himself, Inez and Michael. He died in the disaster, and Inez returned to NYC from London where she had been staying. She shot herself to death in her Greenwich Village apartment on July 22, 1915, and the position of her body led some members of her family to suspect homicide rather than suicide for she was kneeling beside her bed in a prayer position holding her face in her hands. She was also kneeling atop the gun. She had recieved a "bad news" telegram from someone named Adams on the afternoon of her death. Homicide, although possible, is improbable. In early 1917, just before the fall of the Romanov Dynasty, the bulk of the money owed for the 1915 arms deal was paid into Inez's estate. It seems that a large chunk of the financing for Rita Jolivet's Lusitania movie Lest We Forget may have come from the Romanov funds- the story of which will be in the next part of our article on ET. |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 472
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 3:39 am: | |
Senan:
"Jeez, Noel, give it a rest. You have a bee in your bonnet...."
There are no bees in any bonnets here but I do perceive someone apparently in denial of their own history.
"I have no doubt that they stood on the steps and waved their silly placards..."
From the contemporaneous photographs I observed that the placards in question were not the insubstantial ephemera of a passing day that you infer, rather they were substantial panels of some permanence which had been lashed together all round the structure with wire rope or similar. Because of the reluctance of its custodians to take appropriate remedial action, tourists and visitors returning to the mainland from Ireland were writing letters to the papers about it.
It may have been that the British authorities were characteristically reluctant to pursue the matter because of the delicate political situation obtaining at the time. The British press were less reticent.
"It is not a case of the monument being perceived as English. That is so jingoistic as to be ridiculous."
I merely opined that in the shallow revisionist paramilitary psyche the torpedoing of the Lusitania may have been perceived as an "English" affair and that by extension the memorial was some kind of territorial intrusion. Why else would it have been targetted?
Apropos your attempt at analogy: Nelson's column is a monument not a memorial and as such it may be defaced but not desecrated. If the demonstrations, placarding etc. you refer to were inflicted upon the Cenotaph in Whitehall that would be a different matter.
Reverting to Cobh: the statement to be rebutted was to the effect that throughout Ireland graves and memorials were respected even by paramilitary organisations.
And I consider it duly rebutted by the information I provided and the routes to provenance I have indicated. The matter rests with you as you are geographically nearer to the matter than I. If you do not wish to go down these routes so be it but please do not substitute political posturing for inaction in that regard.
As the record will show, I have eschewed political stance beyond that minimum needed to respond to your attempt to peremptorily dismiss the information I was providing. And I see you're still at it, viz.:
"So Noel, I regret you introduced this note into the discussion. You seem to feel the need to prove you are right. ... and I say for the last time that the Lusitania memorial was not "desecrated" for "months and years" by the IRA. So your specific allegation remains untrue, and I wish you had the good grace to withdraw it."
I am quite unable to meet you on that. However, having duly provided the requisite rebutting information, you will find me quite amenable to a mutual agreement to let the matter rest.
Noel |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2032
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 4:49 am: | |
Insubstantial ephemera? |
Shelley Dziedzic
Moderator
Username: shelley
Post Number: 2457
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 4:53 am: | |
Wow, Jim- and I thought Rita had a story! I think our Inez deserves at least a made-for-t.v. epic. This has it all from gun running to crowned heads. It's a script for Hitchcock with plot better than fiction! |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2939
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 5:56 am: | |
Hi Martin,
I don't know if this photo will assist you, but here is one I took of the Old Head of Kinsale coast:
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2940
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 6:01 am: | |
Approximately eleven miles out, is where the Lusitania went down.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2942
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 6:08 am: | |
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2943
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 6:14 am: | |
J.F. McDermott
Surgeon, MM
S.S. "Lusitania"
7th May 1915 Age 38
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2944
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 6:53 am: | |
Fireman T. Cain
Fireman P. Casey
Fireman J. Coady
3rd Cl. Waiter C. Driscoll
Matron A. Enderson
Fireman J. Ford
2nd Cl. Waiter W. G. Gardner
2nd Cl. Waiter C. S. Gilroy
Waiter T. Hannan
Cook J. B. Hine
Stewardess J. E. Howdle
Able Seaman J. P. Huston
Served as Robb
Stewardess M. E. Jones
3rd Cl. Waiter C. Lapphane
Fireman D. Lee
1914-1918
In honoured memory of those named who serving on the RMS Lusitania died when the ship was sunk by enemy action on 7 May 1915 and are buried nearby.
Fireman I. Linton
Fireman J. Madden
Waiter K. McKenzie
1st Cl. Waiter J. H. Murphy
Greaser O. O'Hare
Able Seaman W. E. Quirk
Fireman J. Roach
Stewardess A. J. Roberts
Asst Butcher G. Ronnan
Asst Steward T. E. Stewart
Steward W. S. Thomas
Fireman J. Toole
Stewardess M. Weir
Trimmer C. Welsh
Steward H. E. Wood
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2945
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 7:06 am: | |
This memorial was unveiled by Hugh Coveney to Minister for Defence and the Marine on 7 May 1995
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 174
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 11:43 am: | |
Noel,
I am going to say this: Your contention is that the Cob Town Council and the townspeople of Cobh engaged in prolonged xenophobia.
The council were either pusillanimous or tacitly supported the hijacking over "months and years" of their central monument. That charge is bad enough.
The police, of course, stood idly for the same period by during this strange vigil by malcontents.
But your wider charge is most grievous:
That the population of Cobh, whose immediate forbears went selflessly out to the rescue, would allow such a phenomenon to occur in their midst. Would deny their own families...
It is absurd.
It is preposterous.
It is untrue.
The only reason I am sensitive to it is because it amounts to a complete calumny on a whole town.
Russians, Jews, Poles, French, Americans, and yes, British, walked along those streets in 1915.
They do so today.
And the real truth is this:
The people of Cobh are the most welcoming on earth.
No-one there is anything less than wholeheartedly embracing of all nationalities. As anyone who has been there will vouch.
In short it is a great town to visit, and I do not recognise this suggestion that it is some kind of "valley of the squinting windows."
Regards OM,
Senan |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 128
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 12:36 pm: | |
Hello Mama
I know, the story of George and Inez Vernon (Butler) as told by Jim, is a terrific one and is so full of twists and turns. Since Hitchcock is dead(or is he? HAHAHA) I can't imagine who would have the subtle nuance for the dark side if human nature to produce such a film. Any ideas?
Jason
Thanks for posting pictures. They came out very nice.
Mike
" God will get you for that Walter! " |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2033
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 12:43 pm: | |
Mike: Two words in answer to your query: Linwood Boomer. |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 176
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 2:11 pm: | |
Noel wrote:
>...visitors returning to the mainland from Ireland....<<
A lapsus calami Noel?
. |
Monica Hall
Moderator
Username: monica
Post Number: 1393
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 8:53 pm: | |
I was "blown up" twice by the IRA in London in the 1970s.. Once by a postbox, which I happened to be passing, and once in an hotel, in which I happened to be having a drink. Apart from tearing my dress, I was very lucky. I was also subjected to at least three other bomb alerts - we just took our drinks out onto the roadside, and waited for the authorities to finish their investigations. Not much else we could do because really, the arguments were not of our generation, going back as they do for a few hundred years. I'd be quite interested to hear the views of anyone who has actually experienced these things personally, other than just thought about them from a very, very great distance... in either time or philosophy. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3851
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 11:44 pm: | |
Perhaps that's a conversation for another time, Monica. I know at least one other participant in this thread had a close brush with paramilitary violence during the revival of the Troubles - when Loyalists inflicted the bloodiest single day on the Irish people since the end of the Irish War of Independence/Civil War.
quote:The people of Cobh are the most welcoming on earth.
Amen |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3852
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 11:54 pm: | |
quote:Nice to see you in 'Lusitania Land'. I didn't realize you were interested? Is it more the ship or the people.
A bit of both, Mike - you can blame Eric Sauder and Senan Molony for most of my sneaking interest! Also work like your own and some others like Ben Holme. I've done a bit of work on some of the deck officers, partly for comparative purposes and partly for their own innate interest. Not much, though - I'm strictly a dabbler.
Great photos, Jason! I still remember getting up there into the cemetery and seeing the old sign. And the yew trees around the mass graves, with the late sunlight filtering through. We were gone much longer than expected, hunting through long grass for the graves, but arrived back in town after dark to find that the townspeople in one of the pubs had kindly taken my father - who was in poor health - under their wing and kept him entertained and well looked after. |
Martin Owen Cahill
Member
Username: martin
Post Number: 322
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 12:04 am: | |
Jason
many thanks for the photos.
two questions my friend...
photo1 How high are those cliffs? I think about 100 feet please correct me if I am wrong.
Photo2 Is that land part of Galley or Seven heads?
many thanks
Martin |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 134
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 1:39 am: | |
Hello Inger
Dabbler or not, glad to see you here. Yes, it is nice when your friends interests are infectious.
My desire to do research and share it with others in the form of a post or article comes from people like Jim Kalafus, Peter Kelly, Shelley, Mike Findlay, Craig Stringer et al who have such an enthusiasm for tracking down info. The research process, to me, is very exciting. I can't imagine how other people find it dull!
If I helped, in some small way, cultivate your interest in the Lusy and her people, it makes me very happy.
Mike
" God will get you for that Walter! " |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 474
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 4:26 am: | |
There's none so blind....
I'll not trouble myself to deconstruct your latest partisan perorations other than:
"It is absurd.
It is preposterous.
It is untrue."
If I may borrow a quote from the great Anna Russell (it's not everyone who has their own street) — "I'm Not Making This Up, You Know!"
Ever helpful, I'll give you a possible handle on the information you are so very evidently fighting shy of. Try:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/Contact_Us/index.asp
Des O'Driscoll might be your man there. Ask him if he can give you contemporaneous photographic evidence and text on the hi-jacking of the Lusitania memorial in Cobh by the IRA for propaganda re Bobby Sands circa 1985.
And when you've done that Senan — and only then, — come back here and tell us about it.
Noel |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2948
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 4:43 am: | |
"The people of Cobh are the most welcoming on earth."
I agree and I'll second what Inger said. They are absolutely wonderful people and very hospitable. No doubt about it.
Hi Mike,
You're welcome for the photos. I'm glad you enjoyed them.
Hi Ing,
Thanks, glad you enjoyed them. Your photos are great as well! It says a lot about the townspeople when they did something, as kind as that. I'm sure your father appreciated it.
Hi Martin,
You're welcome, I'm glad you also enjoyed them. As far as your questions go, I'm not exactly sure how high the cliffs are, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are one hundred feet. That land may be part of Seven Heads, but again I'm not quite sure.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
John Clifford
Member
Username: hjca
Post Number: 581
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 5:22 am: | |
Great pictures, Jason.
The pictures bring back wonderful memories of trips to Cobh & Kinsale.
For the victims of the Lusitania, and those they left behind: their stories need to be remembered, and their memories retained; my prayers for all of them, that such an tragedy will never be forgotten.
John Clifford |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3854
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 5:33 am: | |
If there's one person on earth who does not need tips on Irish newspaper contacts and archival research, it's Senan Molony (he is, after all, a senior correspondent for the largest newspaper in Ireland, as well as the one man who has done perhaps more work than any other in Irish newspaper archives).
quote:I'll not trouble myself to deconstruct your latest partisan perorations...
And there speaks the pot, having a word to the kettle.
quote:Your photos are great as well! It says a lot about the townspeople when they did something, as kind as that. I'm sure your father appreciated it.
He did Like just about everyone else who has spent time in Cobh, he thought the people there were wonderful, their hospitality unmatched. Even later that night in the Mauretania pub, when Oz beat Ireland in the RU World Cup we were all watching on TV, the genuine warmth and cameraderie were unabated.
I need to find the rest of my Cobh/Old Head photos.
quote:I can't imagine how other people find it dull!
Welllllll...to be fair...I can understand why others don't all share my enthusiasm for building biceps by hauling out GRO index volumes, covering decades at a time. Or willingly submit themselves to the blinding headache that arises from an afternoon with the microfiche. But then, they'll never know that very particular thrill arising from finding a missing piece of the puzzle. |
Senan Molony
Member
Username: senan_molony
Post Number: 177
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 10:45 am: | |
Hi Ing, and God save all others here,
I am glad, Ing, that you tramped through the long grass. The Old Church has plenty more to offer.
It also includes the graves of Napoleon’s physician at St Helena (maybe the wallpaper did for him too), that of Jack Doyle, the “Gorgeous Gael” boxer who had a colourful life to say the least, and Charles Moore, who wrote that splendidly martial poem, The Burial of Sir John Moore at Corunna:
Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note
As his corpse to the ramparts we hurried
Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot
O’er the grave where our Hero we buried
You may have passed the impressive edifice to Admiral Sit Robert Stokes, who died of pneumonia within a few days of his arrival in Queenstown. That necessitated the recall of the superannuated Vice Admiral Coke, who was thus in charge at the time of the Lusitania emergency. Stokes might have made a better fist of it.
There are some powerful maritime connections, besides the Lusy. Just in front of Mass Grave A, row 22, is the memorial to those lost on the Mars.
You can see the stone has survived very well its 100-odd years here. There is a bouquet of poppies from the Royal British Legion (Republic of Ireland branch).
The Mars tragedy occurred exactly ten years before the Titanic hit her iceberg. On April 14, 1902, a 12-in round jammed in the breech of the port gun of the Battleship’s foreturret.
When the order was given to open the breech, air rushed in, re-ignited the smouldering charge, and blew the whole turret off, taking the lives of two lieutenants and six men.
The memorial was paid for by sailors of the Mars and the Jupiter.
Also right alongside here are the remains recovered from the British submarine A-1. The A-1 was the first British submarine ever to enter service (leaving aside prototypes).
She was on an exercise here on March 18, 1902, when she submerged to practise an attack on the Juno, of Lusitania fame. She never resurfaced.
The passenger Berwick Castle heard some clunking under her keel, and it is supposed she ran over the unfortunate A-1, the first in a very long list of British submarine casualties.
Among the Lusitania private graves, at row 16, close to the perimeter path, is a rank of stones erected by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to commemorate the Captain and several crew of the freighter Anglo-Californian.
This is one of my favourite stories. The Anglo-Californian, like the Lusitania, was attacked by a German submarine in 1915. Her Captain, Frederick Archibald Palstrow, won a posthumous Victoria Cross for gallantry, and lies here.
From my copy of the Illustrated London News, from which I also obtained the pictures:
“One of the bravest deeds in the annals of the British merchant service was told when the London steamer Anglo-Californian, reached Queenstown on July 5, [1915] with Captain Archibald Parslow and eight men dead, and eight others wounded, after an encounter with a German submarine off the Irish coast.
The Anglo-Californian, which belongs to the Nitrate Producers Steamship Company, was homeward bound from Quebec when the submarine overtook her, and began firing at her wireless apparatus. ‘Our Captain,’ said a survivor, ‘was a brave man, and kept on the bridge smiling at the enemy as shot and shell were discharged at his vessel.’
Eventually the gallant Captain was killed. His son, the Second Mate, who was by his side, was knocked down, but bravely took the wheel and steered the ship, lying on the bridge, with shells bursting around him, ‘until assistance arrived’ and the submarine disappeared.
Our correspondent states that over thirty horses on board were killed. The submarine, he adds, fired mainly at the bridge and at the boats being lowered. The ship was hit about twenty times.”
We honour all these British dead. We honour their noble foes of the Deutsches Kiegsmarine. And we salute all men who do their duty. |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 477
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 2:29 am: | |
"If there's one person on earth who does not need tips on Irish newspaper contacts and archival research, it's Senan Molony (he is, after all, a senior correspondent for the largest newspaper in Ireland, as well as the one man who has done perhaps more work than any other in Irish newspaper archives)."
So what the hell's he doing questioning my veracity when he presumably has the requisite provenance at his fingertips?
"And there speaks the pot, having a word to the kettle."
In my reluctance to deconstruct the aforesaid partisan perorations, my intention was merely to spare the rest of you the tedium of reiterative prolixity. Your dutiful impartiality is appreciated.
And Senan,
Should you encounter the Great Historical Airbrush at the Examiner you could of course consult the contemporaneous proceedings of the local town council. I doubt anyone's got round to 'redacting' them.
And if that fails, give Bill Howie a call at Rushbrooke just up the road from Cobh itself. Just mention my name and the m.v.Accra. He was resident at the material time. Furthermore he's a Scotsman and therefore immune to the political amnesia that you give me to believe proliferates thereabouts.
Noel |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2955
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 3:11 am: | |
Thanks John. Yes, it sure does bring back wonderful memorials of the trip.
"Even later that night in the Mauretania pub, when Oz beat Ireland in the RU World Cup we were all watching on TV, the genuine warmth and cameraderie were unabated."
That's of the great things about them. They are so genuine and warm.
Very interesting stories and photos, Senan. Thank you for sharing them. The memorial to the Mars is quite impressive. I would imagine it stands well against the rest, in that area.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3862
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 3:16 am: | |
quote:So what the hell's he doing questioning my veracity when he presumably has the requisite provenance at his fingertips?
Senan at no point has questioned whether placards were placed around the Lusitania memorial. The issues you differ on are whether these constitute a 'desecration', and whether these were targeted specifically at the Lusitania because of a perceived Englishness.
You have indicated that you are operating from a memory of something you read 24 years ago. Can you tell me exactly what those placards said? Verbatim? You are the one making the allegations - the onus of proof is upon you, however high-handedly you demand that Senan research your remembered observations.
Senan has already pointed out the very apt analogy of the Nelson memorial and its role in a range of protests, and I would further extend the analogy to include D.C. memorials in America. The memorial/monument distinction is completely specious - these structures are both memorials and monuments. If you had been to Cobh - and I assume you have - you would be aware that the Lusitania memorial occupies a central place in a square off the high street. It is the most prominent local site suited for a protest or demonstration, including the civil rights demonstrations of 20 odd years ago. It is a natural focal point for protests.
Have you been to Cobh and asked local people what their memory of placards that went up 25 years ago is? If not, why do you presume to anticipate their reaction?
quote:In my reluctance to deconstruct the aforesaid partisan perorations, my intention was merely to spare the rest of you the tedium of reiterative prolixity
'Reiterative prolixity' - exceedingly tedious at that - pretty much sums up what your repetitious posting on this subject has become.
Everyone else who has participated in this thread - Senan Molony included - has being trying to discuss the Lusitania commemorative ceremonies. You have shown no interest in doing so. You, instead, focus on your own disputed interpretation of a past incident, basing your posts on something you remember reading about decades ago.
If anyone here is dishonouring the memory of the Lusitania, it's not the civil rights demonstrators of the early eighties. It's you, Noel, by your insistant harping on this issue.
Get over it and move on. As matters stand, you are dishonouring both the dead and the living. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3863
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 3:34 am: | |
Cheers for posting that image of the Mars, Senan. It is remarkable that the stone has survived in that condition - has there been any restorative work done on it, do you know? Anchor and chains are a popular graveyard theme, but this was a particularly fine and detailed example of the type. It caught my attention as well when I visited, and I think I have some photographs of it among my misplaced images.
The saga of the Anglo-Californian reminds me somewhat of the fate of the Addah, one of the Elder Dempster vessels Harold Lowe had served aboard in earlier years. The captain had ordered his crew to abandon ship, but then had his gunner open fire with the stern gun. She hit the U-boat but failed to inflict serious damage. When the captain and gunner jumped overboard and made it to a liveboat, the U-boat commander rammed and sank it.
I remember seeing the CWGC stones in Cobh - like so many of them in military and civilian battlefields around the world, they are deeply moving.
Apparently the HMS/M A1 is still in remarkably good condition.
http://www.submarineheritage.com/gallery_a1.htm |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2041
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 3:36 am: | |
Amen and well said, Inger. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11933
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 5:49 am: | |
I'll second that. Very well put, Inger.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 2963
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 2:49 am: | |
I'll third that. Bravo, Ing.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 479
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:46 am: | |
"Senan at no point has questioned whether placards were placed around the Lusitania memorial."
Well that's news to me Inger. Get this:
"I'm sorry, but this is a wild, nonsensical and
untrue claim."
And:
"It is absurd. It is preposterous. It is untrue."
When I am assailed in such manner what to you expect me to do? Capitulate? Sorry Inger, I'm not of that kidney.
"The issues you differ on are whether these constitute a 'desecration', and whether these were targeted specifically at the Lusitania because of a perceived Englishness."
I couldn't disagree more. Mr Moloney was clearly seeking to deny that the primary desecration, (the hedging about of the memorial with substantial IRA propaganda placards over a period of time) ever took place, never that the rationale you now put forward obtained. Go back and read the posts.
And if you want deconstruction and prolixity, Mr Moloney put to me the following:
"........Your contention is that the Cob Town Council and the townspeople of Cobh engaged in prolonged xenophobia.
The council were either pusillanimous or tacitly supported the hijacking over "months and years" of their central monument. That charge is bad enough.
The police, of course, stood idly for the same period by during this strange vigil by malcontents."
Exactly. Those were PRECISELY the consequent allegations made in the British press at the time. As to whether the inaction of the municipality and/or the police stemmed from "xenophobia" or intimidation, you must enquire locally. The consensus favoured the latter.
On a detail: the plinth of Nelson's column has provided a convenient podium for issues contentious and otherwise ever since it was built. That does not categorise as a desecration (the structure is rather large for that in any case!).
As the record will show (if anyone should care to go back and actually read it), all I originally did was provide some contextual countervailing information without any political 'side' to it. This being Ireland, I knew there was a risk that some would rise, as to a bait, and seek to politicise it but I did not expect to encounter such irrational vehemence. Or indeed — and regrettably — from a quarter that I hitherto regarded as accruing some gravitas.
All-in-all I consider I have shown commendable restraint in responding to an unprovoked attack upon my veracity and integrity. As the matter clearly remains unresolved I'm minded to spend the money (you'll have to go back and look that one up an'all).
For the time being I look forward to receiving Mr Moloney's meet apology in due course.
Noel |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3868
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 6:58 am: | |
quote:I couldn't disagree more. Mr Moloney was clearly seeking to deny that the primary desecration, (the hedging about of the memorial with substantial IRA propaganda placards over a period of time) ever took place, never that the rationale you now put forward obtained. Go back and read the posts.
I have read the posts - again - from begining to end. Doing so makes it quite clear to me that you do not understand the point Senan is disputing(and, incidently, why others are so resoundingly of the opinion expressed here publicly and privately that enough of your axe grinding is quite enough). As your own cites make clear, Senan made no claim that placards were never erected in, on or near the vicinity of the memorial. What he did dispute is the view put forward by you that this consituted a prolonged 'desecration' of the memorial, and the implications of xenophobia on the part of the local population, continuing to this day.
Again - you are operating from something you remember reading about decades ago, regarding a highly contentious political point that polarised public opinion not just in Ireland or England, but around the world. While you desire to present yourself as having no 'political side' to your posts, a side is most certainly discerned by many who have read this thread. The very characterisation of the placards as a 'desecration' rather than as 'a protest', and your interpretation of their placement indicate that there is most certainly a 'side' to your comments. You compound this by your theorising on the present-day reactions of Cobh residents to questioning on the matter of the placards might be, without proferring any evidence as to this being the case (but then, of course, coming from 'the mainland' and 'this being Ireland' your own entrenched biases are such that I wonder if you're even cognisant of the calumny that is so clearly evident to others).
The analogy of Nelson's column (as with other memorials, such as those located in DC) is an excellent and apt one. All of these, because of their location, have been convenient focal points for demonstrations. There were demonstrations all over the world over the events that took place in 1981. You compound this by your theorising on the present-day reactions of Cobh residents to questioning on the matter of the placards might be, without proferring any evidence as to this being the case (but then, of course, coming from 'the mainland' and 'this being Ireland' your own entrenched biases are such that I wonder if you're even cognisant of the calumny that is so clearly evident to others).
quote:All-in-all I consider I have shown commendable restraint in responding to an unprovoked attack upon my veracity and integrity.
You're a one-man band in that regard - I don't think you have shown any restraint at all, but rather considerable self-indulgence and not a little self-congratulation in your posts. As responses in this thread indicate, people want to talk about the Lusitania - and that is difficult to do with your resounding and deafening axe-grinding. Your contribution to this thread has been neither constructive or instructive.
quote:For the time being I look forward to receiving Mr Moloney's meet apology in due course.
If anyone has shown admirable, commendable and, indeed, quite noble restraint in this thread, it is Senan Molony - whose name you apparently can't even spell correctly. If an apology is owed by anyone, it is your own to the people who have tried to participate in this thread, only to have the discussion derailed by your decision to introduce a highly contentious political issue and to continue pushing it, ignoring all efforts to turn the flow of discussion back to the anniversary commemorations.
It is clear that your view is so narrow and so blinkered you have no idea why members of this board have made their views that 'enough is enough' known. Rather than continuing your personal vendetta on this issue, igniting further bitter political controversy, I suggest you contribute something constructive to the discussion about the Lusitania. |
Paul Rogers
Moderator
Username: progers
Post Number: 496
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 8:39 am: | |
This discussion has more than run its course, and everyone has had ample opportunity to state (and re-state) their views.
Time to move on, I feel.
It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black. |
|
US $23.99 
