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Christopher Repole
Member
Username: repole28
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 11:48 pm: | 
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Hello
I vaguely remember a reference in Don Lynch's "Titanic: An Illustrated History" regarding a friendship between a prominent couple on the Lusitania named "Hubbard" (or something like this) and the Strauss family. It is my recollection that the couple in question met the same fate on the Lusitania that the Strausses had on the Titanic, likewise refusing to be separated. Is there any truth to this? As I have misplaced my copy of Lynch's book, I would appreciate any help with this question at all.
Chris |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3864
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 3:13 am: |
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Hi Chris,
I've taken a look at my copy of Don Lynch's book and according to what he says, Elbert Hubbard referred to several passengers; but he gave noteworthy attention to the Strauses in one of his writings. There is no mention of a friendship though. Elbert had this to say regarding them:
quote:Mr. and Mrs. Straus, I envy you that legacy of love and loyalty left to your children and grandchildren. The calm courage yours all your long and your useful career was your possession in death. To pass out as did Mr. and Mrs. Straus is glorious. Few have such a privilege.
Elbert and his wife did lose their lives at sea together, just as the Strauses did. How ironic and tragic it was for them to meet the same fate, three years later.
I hope this helps.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
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Michael Cundiff
Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 768
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 6:42 pm: |
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Just last night I was admiring some of my LUSITANIA memorabilia, including a copy of the Philistine memorial issue..."Elbert and Alice Hubbard Are Dead". In part a section reads:
"There was no haste. There was no rushing to and fro. They were poised, smiling-arm in arm, Hubbard asked a ship's Officer, "Brother, will the LUSITANIA sink?" The Officer answered: "I think not; at least not for hours. Probably we can reach the beach!"
Also, I cherish my letter on Roycroft stationary, dated June 11, 1904, carrying a typewritten response, and a beautiful fountain pen sig. of Elbert Hubbard.
Michael Cundiff
NV, USA |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1223
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 9:32 pm: |
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Hubbard was quite a character. His Wife was quite a character. How they met was quite a scandal at the time. Divorce and the question of their first child legitimacy. Hubbard so loved to tweak the German Kaiser's nose but who got the last laugh. Sorry Michael, couldn't resist that last bit of tomfoolery. Actually my great-great Grandmother's maiden name was Hubbard. Any relation...not that I know of.
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Michael Cundiff
Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 771
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 10:04 pm: |
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George, that makes you a relative of L. Ron Hubbard as well! BTW, Elbert Hubbard was a good swimmer, however his beloved wife Alice was not. According to the Philistine of my aforemention, when it was know that LUSITANIA would founder, the Hubbard's hand in hand, returned to their cabin to perish with tremendous courage and brave hearts.
As did Isidor & Ida Strauss on-board TITANIC.
Michael Cundiff
NV, USA |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1226
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 8:13 am: |
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Michael,
Sorry for the hold up in my reply.
quote:George, that makes you a relative of L. Ron Hubbard as well! BTW,
Perish the thought. Although Scientology is a cockamamie theory I could see myself coming up with. Must be my Hubbard blood showing through.
quote:As did Isidor & Ida Strauss on-board TITANIC.
I heard that The Hubbard's admired the Strauss's tremendously. Hubbard once said the the perfect death was from either old age or accident and that disease was indecent.
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 23993
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 4:17 am: |
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>>Hubbard once said the the perfect death was from either old age or accident and that disease was indecent.<<
He should take a page from Nelson Rockefeller's handbook. He allegedly died while spending....errrrr...."quality time" with his mistress. If ya gotta go, that's not a bad way to check out!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4983
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 12:38 pm: |
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The only reliable acount of the Hubbards' final moments comes from a social acquaintance of theirs, Charles Lauriat. He confirmed that Alice, at least, was smiling beautifully. He left them standing on deck, to get lifebelts, and when he came back, they were gone.
They MAY have been in boat 14. There is an unsupported account by the ship's barber, Lott Gadd, which places them in 14. 14 was the only port boat to escape...and only just barely. It began filling with water at once, and its 60+ passengers began bailing with their hats, shoes, handbags as they sruggled to row away. It pitched over and all of the occupants were thrown out. Most climbed back in, but after an additional six or seven heels, only three or four remained to be rescued.
Gadd never claimed to have seen the Hubbards in any of his other accounts, so this is PROBABLY 'color' added by a reporter. But, then again, they may have died in one of #14s rollovers.
I most admire Hubbard for his promotion of non-period piece architecture. Thanks to him, the Buffalo NY area is actually far superior to NYC, when it comes to intelligent design from the turn of the last century. Enter 'Larkin Building Frank Lloyd Wright' into a a search engine to see a lost Hubbard-inspired masterpiece.
I've never found a first person account from the 'golden week' (May 7-14) in which anyone claimed to have seen the Hubbards returning to their suite. The story seems to have originated a bit later...and I do not know to whom it can first be attributed.
BUT, I'll say this. A man leading his non-swimming wife to a certain death in a flooding suite is neither noble nor romantic. It is, in fact, rather disturbing to ponder what the moment must have been like when they realised that escape was no longer possible. I prefer to think that he died trying to SAVE Alice in #14.
Still, it's the life you chose, I suppose. Good luck to you, come what may.
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 6:17 pm: |
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Howdy Jim,
That does make sense. I think in the Hubbard's case it was known among his friends that he admired the Strauss's and so a legend built up. There's also him supposedly telling reporters or friends if the ship is attacked and sinks that he would go down with it. If he did make such a statement he was joking. I admire Hubbard for his individualism and for following his heart and I also admire his wife for her views on Woman's Suffrage and doing her own thing. I wouldn't mind being related to them however distantly.
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Michael Cundiff
Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 792
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 7:11 pm: |
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JIM K., I agree with you as for the Lauriat account, however the Philistine Elbert Hubbard memorial issue is of emotional heartfelt reading...QUOTING furthur:
"Those who knew Alice will remember that her silken-cord strength was mostly of the Will. The physical body was very frail. To trust Alice among the buffeting waves, life-belt or no life-belt, thought Hubbard, must surely mean Death. To survive without her was unthinkable."
"With open arms he told her truly, "Alice, my Blessed, my Blessed, here endeth the Chapter." She came close to him, and whispered, "Elbert, I know, I know!"
--END QUOTE--
And it was May '15 Lusitania passenger Charles Frohm (Playwright known for Peter Pan) who was heard to say..."Dying is the great adventure of all!"
Michael Cundiff
NV, USA |
Michael Cundiff
Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 796
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 9:06 pm: |
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COORECTION: "Dying is the greatest adventure of all". (Frohm)
MAC |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4989
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 11:00 pm: |
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>And it was May '15 Lusitania passenger Charles Frohman ...who was heard to say..."Dying is the great adventure of all!"
Part of an exceptionally heroic group of passengers who waited inside the A Deck foyer until the last minute. George Vernon, Aleck Scott, Rita Jolivet (the only survivor) Charles Frohman, and a fourth man Miss Jolivet could not identify (the press arbitrarily decided that it was Vanderbilt) stood together for most of the sinking. Scott ran below, repeatedly, to bring up lifebelts. Rita later recalled that, when warned of the danger in which he was placing himself, he replied something to the effect of "If I must die, then I must." At some point, Frohman quoted Barrie to Miss Jolivet ("Why fear death? It is the greatest adventure in life.") and the group of five stepped out of the foyer on to the port boat deck just in time to have the water washing over the superstructure crash down on top of them. Rita survived. George Vernon was later seen atop an overturned boat, but became delirious and rolled off. Aleck Scott vanished. Frohman's body was recovered, as was that of George Vernon.
Lauriat's is the only reliable detailed account of the Hubbards final moments. His specific detail, that Alice was very calm and smiled almost beatifically ar her husband, has a ring of truth to it...and it was a detail which Lauriat brought up, essentially unchanged, in multiple accounts.
But, he never saw them during the latter phases of the disaster.
There are random sightings of the Hubbards, forward on the boat deck, which tie in with Lauriat's account. But, no one else who knew them well seems to have written an account of speaking to them, or spending time with them. The most one can say with confidence is that they were together, neither showed signs of panic, Alice was composed, and they seem to have played passive role in events.
The quotes in the Philistine must, like any unattributed quote, be viewed with scepticism. To whom was this said, or by whom was it overheard?
Still, it's the life you chose, I suppose. Good luck to you, come what may.
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Michael Cundiff
Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 798
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 11:45 pm: |
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Jim: Pardon my spelling of Charles Frohman. I had minor brain trauma when I was ran over by a DUI assailant...but after nearly two yrs. it's all coming back to me now. BTW, I am seeking a Frohman signature (W/provenance) if you know of one? Thank You.
Michael Cundiff
NV, USA |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1242
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 7:22 am: |
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quote:The most one can say with confidence is that they were together, neither showed signs of panic, Alice was composed, and they seem to have played passive role in events.
Well that's a Hubbard for you. Flighty or seemingly so but when the going gets rough they get calm and collected.
Perhaps though they might of decided at the last minute to make a go of the boats. Or Hubbard convinced Alice to go in #14. But they either got out or were thrown out when the boat rolled.
Michael C.
quote:Pardon my spelling
Let me just say, think nothing of it. You should see my spelling. Seriously!
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4990
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 11:20 am: |
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Hey, Michael: I've never seen a Frohman document for sale, anywhere, and so cannot steer you in a practical direction. If I ever run across one, I will let you know.
Still, it's the life you chose, I suppose. Good luck to you, come what may.
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Ben Holme
Member
Username: benedict
Post Number: 706
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 2:40 pm: |
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Hi all,
Is #14 the same boat that George Kessler escaped in? I seem to recall that it also suffered successive overturnings.
Cheers,
Ben |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4991
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 2:02 am: |
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Hi Ben,
Probably not. Kessler, along with the Brunos, was in a boat which was lowered successfully, but which was struck by the Lusitania as she made her final heel to starboard and destroyed. That boat, apparently, never got free of its lines.
#14 DID get free of the ship. It rowed away, but began filling at once. Accounts from those in the boat, and those who watched from the Lusitania agree. The boat filled very fast, the passengers and crew rowed and bailed frantically, and when the water reached nearly knee level and #14 started to become unstable, occupants began to jump out:
The lifeboat was not properly plugged and began to fill with water. A woman bailed it out with her handbag.
"I did not have a handbag and felt helpless. One man wearing a pork pie hat wasn’t doing anything with it, so I took his hat off and began to bail with it."
The boat then overturned several times. Many of its stronger occupants survived by swimming to the overturned #22. Most, however, seem to have drowned or died of hypothermia, until only a handful remained aboard:
"I looked at the baby after, and I was sure it was dead. Its eyes were all glassy. Another wave threw us over and I went under with the baby. That was the last I saw of it. I must have been under the water a long time. The men got back on and I heard them talking. I heard one say 'Good God, she’s alive.' "
The sequence of the port boats seems to have been this. The furthest aft in first class was the initial fatality. The bow line parted, at boat deck level, and the occupants were all ejected. A midships boat overturned in launching and ejected most of its passengers, 'tho witnesses on deck described a 'heap' of people who were thrown together in the boat clinging to it as it dangled. The next boat aft almost simultaneously parted its lines and free fell atop those in the water from the overturned boat.
At that point, port evacuation was ordered halted, and the boats unloaded.
At about the ten minute mark, it appears that, officially or not, an attempt was made to lower port bosts again. The Lusitania, at that time, was as steady and even keeled as she would ever be again. My guess is that #14, with the Ryersons, George Wynne, Lott Gadd, possibly the Hubbards, Virginia Loney and some 60 others was the first. A second boat, with Josephine Brandell, Mabel Crichton, Francis Jenkins, the Brunos and George Kessler, seems to have been lowered after that.
Still, it's the life you chose, I suppose. Good luck to you, come what may.
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1243
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 7:49 am: |
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I see Jim, your in the zone. Can't wait til your article is ready for consumption. Where there any orphans who were adopted and forgot they were on the Lusitania and had to be told about it later. I know that would be hard to forget but still if the child was young enough or blocked it out? Just curious?
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Ben Holme
Member
Username: benedict
Post Number: 707
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 1:00 pm: |
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Thanks for that, Jim.
Assigning passengers to their lifeboats and establishing the loading sequence is a hard enough job with the Titanic. To get anywhere close with the Lusitania would be impressive indeed, and it's good to see that progress in being made on that front.
Best regards,
Ben |
Michael Cundiff
Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 802
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 7:27 pm: |
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And as Ocean Liner historian Bill Sauder was heard to say on a History Channel LUSY documentary..."The LUSITANIA did not have time to leave a legacy". (Regarding her foundering)
Michael Cundiff
NV, USA |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1245
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 4:48 am: |
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quote:"The LUSITANIA did not have time to leave a legacy".
No she didn't and in the rush to play the blame game and cover stuff up a lot of stories were lost.Nice to know folks like Jim and others are doing their best to piece together the pieces which isn't easy.
"Merry Christmas
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4993
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 6:56 am: |
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Of COURSE the Lusitania left a legacy!
In her final 18 minutes, enough true heroism and grace under pressure emerged to completely and utterly shame the Titanic.
Think about it. On a violently and quickly sinking ship, the vast majority of people kept their heads. There were a few individuals who broke down, but by and large...considering what they were faced with...the Lusitania was a FAR better example of people rising to their best than was the ill-fated White Star Liner of three years earlier. There was no need for gunplay by the officers, no degeneration of order as the ill-informed passengers figured out on their own that they were in deep trouble, and none of the unsavory discrimination that makes so much of April 15, 1912, painful to think about in retrospect.
I've put this on line before, but this account by Belle Naish captures, beautifully, the scene atop the second class deckhouse from about the ten minute mark:
"My husband aided six persons to get into their life preservers properly. One was a woman with a heavy fur coat. “Madam, you must get out of that coat.” said Mr. Naish. “The fur will sink you.” She took it off, and he tied her life preserver on again for her. Another woman was wearing a long, heavy, wool coat with a large fur collar, her life preserver outside of that and her baby tied to the life preserver on her breast. Mr. Naish told her she must take the coat off and manage differently about the baby or both would be drowned. A pitifully strange sight was a woman, glassy-eyed, mouth hanging open and emitting queer sounds. She was dragging her life belt. As we tied it on her, another woman came along, her hat tied on with a long motor veil.
"By that time the ship had tipped so far we couldn’t take our footing without taking hold of something. A boat was being launched, and one end dropped letting all the people it contained into the sea. At the sight, I felt faint and asked Mr. Naish to pinch me to help me back to consciousness. He did, and I was alright again in a moment. We made no effort to get into the lifeboats. Mr. Naish had promised me long before he would never force me to get into a lifeboat unless there was room for him.
"Now, I saw the water coming closer. A boatman came up and said “She’s steady. She’ll float for an hour.” But I knew she wasn’t steady, and wouldn’t float for an hour. “Look,” I said, “at the horizon and the railing of this boat. We’ll be gone in a minute.” And gone we were. The Irish coast looked far away, and the song “It’s a Long Long Way to Tipperary” kept glancing through my mind.
"We took hold of the railing that penned in the lifeboats. I had my arm through my husband’s. But, as I felt the boat sinking I unclasped my hand from his, because I did not want to drag him down. At that moment the ship dipped down and over at the same time, bringing the water up to my armpits. A boat swung out and struck my head and cut it open, and I lifted my arm to keep it from striking my husband in the face. It seemed as if everything in the universe ripped and tore. The deck seemed to strike the soles of my feet hard.
"The next thing I knew, I was twenty or thirty feet below the surface of the sea. I thought “Why, this is like being on grandmother’s feather bed.” I was comfortable. I kicked, and rose faster. My head struck something that cut my scalp, and kept bumping. I got my arms around something, and when I came out of the water I was clasping the bumper of an overturned lifeboat.
************************************
Another legacy...a tangible one...is that within hours of the disaster, all of the literate survivors had access to pen, paper, and/or reporters. The Lusitania is a far more...satisfying...wreck to research than the Titanic, since more than 350 of the 760+ survivors set their recollections down within hours of being rescued. There is a great deal of honesty, anger, recrimination, unfortunate self revelation that simply does not exist in the vast majority of Titanic accounts. And, unlike Titanic, there are scores of minute details, of the sort one soon forgets, in the accounts...and in most cases, they appear in multiple accounts and reenforce one another.
***********************************
Another legacy, perhaps the most important, is that the Lusitania does not lend itself to addled romantic bullshit. I'm sure that aboard the Titanic there WERE unfortunate women reduced, by terror, to dragging their lifebelts and emitting queer noises. And I'm sure that, as aboard the Lusitania, there were adult men who defecated on themselves in fear. Thing is, no one who witnessed these things remained alive the following day to testify to them.
The Lusitania's ugly demise makes romanticism difficult. There was more heroism, more outright nobility, than the Titanic story possessed but for all of that the dominant impression one gets while reading the May 8-14 accounts is one of squalor and sadness.
To say that the ship did not leave a legacy due to the speed of her demise implies, strongly, that one has either never read...or if read, digested and interpreted, anything other than the mass market books. I hope that this is a misquote.
Still, it's the life you chose, I suppose. Good luck to you, come what may.
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Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 913
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 1:13 pm: |
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Hi Michael
I'm going to have to disagree with the legacy assessment. If you read researcher (I don't like to use the word historian as there are only a actual historians and mostly self titled historians) J. Kent Layton's book, Lusitania Illustrated History of the Ship of Splendor- she indeed left quite a legacy that had nothing to do with her sinking.
Voyage, journal of www.titanicinternationalsociety.org
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4994
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 3:38 pm: |
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Hey, Mike P.: I did not think beyond the legacy of the disaster but, yes, you are correct. There's the entire service life of the ship to take into account, as well.
Worth pondering, more, is the lesson taught by this disaster...the Empress of Ireland....the Columbia; San Juan and Morro Castle. The standard line, usually uttered by crew members and military sorts, is that 'civilians' ie. passengers, tend to behave irrationally in situations such as those which unfolded on April 15, 1912 and May 7, 1915. That officers 'who did their best' on the former occasion were correct in keeping people guessing, and that panic was kept at bay thru this judicious use of silence.
This, of course, is nonsense.
What the faster moving shipwrecks, in particular this one, show is that 'civilians' tend to keep their heads, and maintain social order, better than given credit for in situations such as this.
Think about it- a ship which is rolling and recovering while rapidly sinking. The hundreds of people along the port boat deck were witnesses to scores of violent deaths in the three initial lifeboat accidents. Fertile grounds for the panic that military sorts tend to ascribe to civilians in such situations. Yet, for all of that, panic did not break out. Men, and women, repeatedly went below, with no assurance of escape, to get life jackets and search for missing relatives and friends. When the order was given to offload the remaining boats, such was done without argument. One would expect that, given the mind-numbingly terrifying things going on all around, that people would have refused to climb out of the boats, and that those not already in them would have been making a frantic effort to do so. But it did not happen.
This is, of course, drawn ONLY from the first week accounts. And, preferably, first day accounts. Later, all of the Titanic dregs: noble officers; hysterical women; heroic Englishmen; gutsy Americans; craven 'foreigners' began creeping in to narratives, but when people were still in the first phases of recovery, and editorialising had not begun creeping in, a careful reader is given a remarkable look into how the vast majority of people react when cvonfronted with looming death.
Which, of course, makes the Titanic and, specifically her officers, look even more disgraceful. Nearly three hours, utter calm, a passenger compliment similar to that of the Lusitania, yet panic unquestionably DID break out several times and,ultimately, those on board had a far worse chance of survival...
(...before anyone chimes in...within an hour of the disaster, all of the Lusitania passengers in the water not wearing life jackets HAD "frozen to death." Within three hours, most of those IN life jackets had, as well.)
....giving lie to the incessant refrain about "they did their best." They could only have done WORSE if no boats had been lowered at all.
I think about people like Aleck Scott and Norah Bretherton frequently. Then think about the human pieces of excrement who surfaced aboard the Titanic...like Woolner and Steffanson pulling the 'cowards' out of boat C and then crossing over, going down a deck to where they KNOW the not entirely full D is going to alight, and jump in!....and wonder HOW the myth of romance and nobility has survived as long as it has....
I guess what I am building towards is that an in depth study of THIS disaster helps clear the head regarding the "warm and fuzzy borders on hero worship" which surrounds that other one.
A valuable legacy indeed.
Regarding the term 'historian.' It should be avoided like the plague, unless one actually has a degree in History and Library Sciences. It endows one with the comic self-importance of Ye Olde Lady At Ye Historical Society ("Official Historian of the Tineacruris Montana Historical Society") or He Who Speaks Fluent Wookiie. Researcher/author/buff confer more dignity upon the person to whom they are applied. Unless...of couse...one really HAS that degree....
Still, it's the life you chose, I suppose. Good luck to you, come what may.
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1248
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 4:01 pm: |
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Howdy Jim and Mike P.,
Sorry if I implied there was no legacy left by the Lusitania. What I mean to say was that the Lusitania's Legacy wasn't as well known as Titanic's. I don't know if this was because of War Time reporting or because of the War itself or the rush by both sides to play the blame game for all the lives lost or what. The stories of Lusitania are not as prominent in people's minds. that's why I'm glad that both of you are doing this article. I remember as a boy growing up in Iowa and wanting to read about Lusitania that it was harder because there was only the "Last Voyage Of The Lusitania".
"And laugh- but smile no more"
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1249
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 4:07 pm: |
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As For the Lusitania's Legacy as a ship in it's self I know that for her day she was regarded as fast and innovative. That's another reason for me to read both of your article.
"And laugh- but smile no more"
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