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jaime ryan neeley
Member
Username: pop_odyssey_08
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 5:16 am: | 
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Hello everybody!!! I just wanna ask if anybody knows how someone dines in the first class dining saloon.
If I was a passenger, once i entered the saloon, will someone assist me to my seating?
Is the menu ready on the table? if so how do they place it?
Did all people eat at the same time (what I mean is that, are all foods served at the same time) or it depends on whether you want to arrive late and you missed some of the courses?
Do the people pay after they eat? if not, does the fare include the food allowance?
i read from a website (which i can't remember) that different wines were used for every course. do they change the wine glasses?
what if you don't want to eat this or that course? can you order a substitute?
thanks in advance to those who will answer. Peace to everyone!!! |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1120
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:48 pm: |
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Seating plans were posted so that passengers could find their own way to their allocated places, but I've no doubt that guidance was available for those who required it. Meal times were fixed at 8-10am for breakfast, 1pm for lunch and 7pm for dinner, but not regimented to the extent that people arriving a little late would miss out on a course. Also it was possible to dine as late as 8.15pm if requested in advance. The menus offered several options for each course. Diners were provided also with a wine list and made their own choices, but serving different wines in the same glass would be akin to serving several courses on the same plate - not done.
The cost of meals in the dining saloon was included in the ticket price, but this did not include drinks (ie alcohol), which were charged separately and accounts would be settled at the end of the voyage.
1st Class passengers had the option also of dining at a restaurant which operated independently and had its own staff and management who were not on the White Star payroll. There you could dine at any time between 8am and 11pm, but you would be served with a bill (check) as in any restaurant on land. Passengers who chose to eat all their meals in the restaurant and not use the dining room at all could claim a partial refund on their ticket price.
Hope that helps. Additions/corrections welcomed!
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 54
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 2:26 pm: |
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"Passengers who chose to eat all their meals in the restaurant and not use the dining room at all could claim a partial refund on their ticket price."
For those interested, from information published in Dec 1911, the allowance was 3 British-pounds per adult passenger. For passengers who paid upwards of 35-pounds, the allowance was 5-pounds. This a la carte restaurant was under the management of a Mr. L Gatti.
Sam Halpern
Lat 40*24'N Lon 74*14'W
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Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 197
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 6:05 pm: |
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Menus were presented on special menu stands - Tiffany's used to carry them. They looked a little like those racks they stick on woodwinds to hold the music, only on a stick about six inches high with a heavy flat bottom - all solid silver, of course. |
George Pastarmatzis
Member
Username: fm123sparti
Post Number: 184
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 6:34 pm: |
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Hi! Was one of those menus on each table or perhaps more for all the company of people? Were these similarly included in the a la cart restaurant? Thanks!
George B. Pastarmatzis
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 7:14 pm: |
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Father Browne's famous photo of the Dining Saloon shows an empty table in the foreground - I think a 5 or 6-seater - with two menus visible near the centre. They are supported upright in some way that places the bottoms of the menus very close to the table top. |
jaime ryan neeley
Member
Username: pop_odyssey_08
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 4:37 am: |
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Does that mean that for a table only two menus are provided? are there table lamps like in Cameron's movie? |
Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 565
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 9:06 am: |
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Besides Father Browne's picture, there is another rarer view of the Titanic's dining saloon from a postcard published by Raphael&Co, showing nothing on the tables. |
George Pastarmatzis
Member
Username: fm123sparti
Post Number: 187
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 10:32 am: |
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Hi! Is that photo available on the net? What exactly does the picture show? Thanks!
George B. Pastarmatzis
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Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 571
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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No, unfortunately I can't find the picture online.
The postcard shows the view of the dining saloon from a corner where the 4 (at 90 degrees) arched partitions are. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1149
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 1:46 pm: |
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For more suggestions about what was (or was not) on the tables check out this thread:
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5660/59440.html?1060434890 |
Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 586
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 5:25 am: |
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George, I just found out that in page 22 of a book entitled "RMS Titanic - The Story Illustrated with postcards from the period", there is a picture of the postcard I mentioned above. |
George Pastarmatzis
Member
Username: fm123sparti
Post Number: 189
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 9:18 am: |
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Thanks Jeremy for your fast response! Is there any way we could all see that photo? Perhaps, you could scan it but I do not know whether the quality would be that good! Thanks anyways!!!
George B. Pastarmatzis
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Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 594
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 10:14 am: |
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Don't seem to be able to post here , I'll try to send you by e-mail. Can you give me your e-mail address? |
Donald J A Smith
Member
Username: don
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 1:40 am: |
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Lee wrote: "Menus were presented on special menu stands" and Bob had noted that: "They are supported upright in some way that places the bottoms of the menus very close to the table top." Without saying there was no other type of menu-holder, originals of the silver-plate 'star' type - though both smaller and lighter than the reproductions - support authentic WSL menus perfectly well. The 'star' of this design is only 1.5 inches point-to-point; and the overall height is just 2 inches. A card held by the hidden back 'clip' is only a quarter inch from the table-top. They are certainly rarities today, but must have been produced in great numbers. Just as the reproductions I've seen have all lacked the famous burgee (which would be at the back, not the front), I've not yet met with an original that was - as I might have expected - marked with either a maker's name or a date-code. Many are quite imperfectly made when closely examined. This might indicate that they were produced with 'loss-or-breakage' well in mind! |
Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 206
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 4:17 pm: |
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I had never heard of those before, Donald. Very interesting. Would you perhaps have a picture of one to share? |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 4:37 pm: |
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Here's the repro 'star' type menu holder described by Don, plus another White Star menu holder in etched glass with silver plate clip. The glass holder is real, but whether earlier, later or contemporary with the 'star' I don't know. I agree with Don that only the 'star' type would place the cards low enough to suit their position in Father Browne's photo.
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Donald J A Smith
Member
Username: don
Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:18 am: |
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Back to you, Lee! Bob's repro holder is actually of thicker silver-plate than the originals are! It is also considerably heavier and is slightly larger in every measurement. Notice, however, that the repro card (which is also of exhibition quality) does sit hardly more than a quarter-inch above the table-cloth. Of the 'Cote perfum' sort, I have only seen - not had in hand - one example before Bob's. The immediate impression it makes is of an object of truly special quality, of the 'art deco' period and the product of a glass-works the name of which we might almost all of us know. Here is the photograph of an original: |
Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 209
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 3:18 pm: |
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Ho ho ho and also aha! Very nice, thanks for sharing them, guys. |
jaime ryan neeley
Member
Username: pop_odyssey_08
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 11:45 pm: |
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can anyone give me a list of the accompanying wine selections for each course? please, please, please... thank you very much, guys!!! |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1178
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:02 am: |
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Diners were free to order whatever they wanted from the published wine list, which was too long to provide in full here. Basically there was Champagne, Claret, Sauterne, Hock, Moselle, Port, Sherry, Burgundy and Vermouth. Plus spirits - Rum, Gin, Brandy, Whiskey (at 5 shillings - that's 25p - a bottle) and liqueurs such as Curacao, Kummel, Chartreuse, Benedictine and Creme-de-Menthe.
For less refined imbibers like me there was ale, lager and stout. Also mineral waters and various soft drinks like ginger ale and lemonade. No Diet Coke though! Tobacco, cigarettes and cigars were also included on the wine list.
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1179
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:15 am: |
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Try this link (about halfway down the page):
http://www.euronet.nl/users/keesree/food.htm |
Jamil Sepulveda
Member
Username: tail_jms
Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:53 am: |
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1st Class - April 14th, 1912
-Breakfast-
Baked apples - Fruit - Steamed Prunes
Quaker Oats - Broiled Hominy - Puffed Rice
Freash Herring
Findon Haddock - Smoked Salmon
Grilled Mutton - Kidneys & Bacon
Grilled Ham - Grilled Sausage
Lamb Callops - Vegetable Stew
Fried, Shirred, Poached & Boiled Eggs
Plain & Tomato Omelettes to Order
Sirloin Steak & Mutton Chops to Order
Mashed Saute and Jacket Potatoes
Cold Meat
Vienna and Graham Rolls
Soda & Sultana Scones - Corn Bread
Buckwheat Cakes
Black Current Conserve - Narbonne Honey
Oxford Marmalade
Watercress
best,
jm |
Donald J A Smith
Member
Username: don
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 1:37 am: |
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And water! 'Poland Water' was very popular indeed. And, not just with Americans (its source was Poland Springs, Maine). It would have been favoured throughout First and Second cabins. If just one bottle were brought to your stateroom, the charge was 'one-and-six'. What the true equivalent to that would be today - in pounds or dollars - is a complex question and worthy of a thread itself. 'We wish to be told our bill'! |
monica ahll
Member
Username: monica
Post Number: 211
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:33 pm: |
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Bob,
I read somewhere that they put on board at Southampton enough alcoholic drinks for the return trip. Doing a few rudimentary sums based (I think) on an Olympic manifest, I was puzzled as, if this is true, they must have been expecting a rather abstemious lot aboard. Which seems odd for Edwardian times, although I know that among the crew abstention was considered desirable - one can see why. In particular, 3rd class (where I suspect both you and I would have been) seems a bit short of beer. But if it was just for the westward trip, then they must have been expecting some champion boozers. Seems the sort of thing you might know..... |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 1:03 pm: |
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As a very rough guide, a 1912 shilling had the purchasing power of around three 21st Century pounds sterling or 5 US dollars. So the bottle of Poland Water would have cost the equivalent of £4.50 in today's money. A bottle of brandy would be approx £22 and the best quality Champagne £40 - nearly a week's wages for the waiter who served it. The most expensive cigars were (in today's money) £3 each.
Monica, your assumption that I have specialist knowledge about alcoholic beverages gained from long experience of over-consumption is scandalous, but nonetheless true. Ever in search of kindred souls, I recall that your very first post (in the 'booze' thread of course) raised this same question! Can you remind us of the figures?
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George Pastarmatzis
Member
Username: fm123sparti
Post Number: 202
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 2:11 pm: |
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Hi all! I saw in the 97 movie a silver object in the dining saloon with wheels being swept away during flooding. I think food was being kept warm there or something like that. Also, was there the possibility of making one's plate in front of him as nowadays? Or was that a "priviledge' of the ala-cart restaurant? Thanks!
George B. Pastarmatzis
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 3:43 pm: |
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Sounds like an ordinary serving trolley. There were a few of those rolling around in the ANTR film, too - just in case the audience don't get the point that the deck was no longer level!
If you can find any information on procedures in the two 'Ritz' restaurants which Mr Gatti had run in London (Gatti's Adelphi and Gatti's Strand) it's a fair bet that in his 'Ritz' restaurants on Olympic and Titanic things were done in very much the same way, as he had complete control. Here's a description of a visit to Gatti's Strand at about the turn of the Century:
The crowd at the marble-topped tables was not quite so picturesque as that I remembered of old, but the great counter, with its backing of dark wood and looking-glass, its lager-beer engine, and its army of bottles, was there, the oval desk with its two occupants was there, the carvers with the big dish-covers running up and down on chains were there. The decorations of blue and gold were of the same colours that I recall, the stained window I remembered, but a new portrait of the late Mr Terriss, the actor, in the well-known grey suit, looked down on me from the wall. The soup, strong and hot, with its accompanying vegetables on a separate plate, was brought, and, having disposed of it, I thought that it was a good opportunity to interview Mr Gatti as to the transformations of the restaurant and as to his theatrical speculations ... Bit by bit the various changes were explained to me, until the advent of the braised mutton, with white beans and new potatoes, brought a pause. Capital mutton it was - a huge helping too - and the lager-beer delightfully cold and light ... I wanted to hear about Covent Garden and the Adelphi and the Vaudeville, and I wanted to eat cheese and drink coffee and some of the excellent old brandy the restaurant has, but the hands of the clock pointed to twenty minutes to eight, and at a quarter to eight the curtain would rise at the St James’s, so I called for my bill. Soup, 1s.6d; entrée, 1s.4d; vegetable, 4d; bread, 1d; beer, 6d; total, 3s.9d.
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Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 661
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 4:19 pm: |
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>>Sounds like an ordinary serving trolley. There were a few of those rolling around in the ANTR film, too - just in case the audience don't get the point that the deck was no longer level!<<
The serving trolley - wasn't it shown in Cameron's Titanic too, where in the dining saloon it is shown loaded with cakes and rolls (at that part where Molly tells a joke)? |
George Pastarmatzis
Member
Username: fm123sparti
Post Number: 203
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 4:30 pm: |
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Hi again! Naturally, what you are both referring to is in fact a serving trolley but I believe I did not make myself clear enough: I was referring to that silver plated object with wheels and a round shape on top that can be seen in the first dinner scene, the second one and beside the doors of the 1st class dining saloon when Rose and Jack run by it. I think food is kept warm in it or possible even cooked in front of the client but I am not sure! Any comments on that one? Thanks to all of you!
George B. Pastarmatzis
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monica ahll
Member
Username: monica
Post Number: 216
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 5:17 pm: |
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\iSalut, mon brave!\i
Well now you see, Bob, the mettle of the diligent researcher. If at first you don't get an answer, keep pegging away. I'm impressed you recall my first mild enquiry - which I vaguely recall too, although time has intervened, not to mention regular refreshment, some of which may have been chateau-bottled - but I digress. Here is one of the references:
The provisions: Titanic Voices (Hisplop, Forsyth, Jemima)
and the suggestion about the duration of same? Well, it's a casual sentence in a book, and right this minute I can't find it. But it caught my eye, and was in close juxtaposition to a sentence concerning the number of eggs that sank - 30,000 taken on board according to ANTR - that can't possibly have been for a single westward voyage? 10 eggs a day per person? No wonder there were copious quantities of Black Draught etc. on board.... |
Donald J A Smith
Member
Username: don
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 5:25 pm: |
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When Bob wrote: "as a very rough guide" ["£4.50"]", I was already worried whether my own calculation - of '£2.10' - could reasonably accommodate the presence of 'Third Class' passengers. Perhaps, because so very much was apparently paid by them for a one-way passage and so extravagant an amount paid - even by the Astor/Ryerson or Duff-Gordan parties! - for 'Poland Water', a deeper ET discussion (and off on a thread of its own) might prove as interesting as Bob's reply. "So, now: What's that in real money?" |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1183
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 5:34 pm: |
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George, one of the traditional uses for a serving trolley was to bring a joint of meat to the table, with the (uncarved) joint resting on a heated and covered chafing dish. Does that sound like it?
Jeremy, I heard that back in 1942 the silver trolley from the Grill Room at the Raffles Hotel was buried to avoid capture by the enemy, but was later restored to its former glory and is still in use. Just take a minute to nip over there and check that out, would you?
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George Pastarmatzis
Member
Username: fm123sparti
Post Number: 204
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 6:04 pm: |
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Exactly Bob! Thank you for clearing that up for me!
George B. Pastarmatzis
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1184
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 6:16 pm: |
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Don, there are a number of posts which address the issue of comparative prices and/or profits, but I think they're scattered about in several threads - the search engine might locate them. There's also an article on ticket revenues which might be of interest. As far as profits are concerned (1st v 3rd Class) it is of course the profit margins that count, not the prices. 1st Class travel was expensive, but so were the costs involved. Typically, one 1st Class passenger paid about the same as four 3rd Class passengers, but I reckon the differential in costs was a lot higher than the difference in ticket prices. In other words, the 3rd Class tickets generally carried the highest profit margins.
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1185
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:01 pm: |
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Ok, Monica, back to our favourite subject. White Star's main supplier provided 15,000 bottles of beer, but maybe that doesn't include the stock of the A La Carte Restaurant, which operated as a concession and did its own accounting - I've seen a quoted figure of 20,000 bottles in total, but that's not a certainty. It's possible there was also a supply of keg beer for 3rd Class consumption, but I can't recall seeing any mention of this, so let's go with 15,000 bottles. Certainly the crew had no (official) access to it. Eliminate also the children, the mothers of young children, the fathers who have conserved every penny to get their families to the New World, and there aren't going to be too many heavy drinkers to drain the stock. Add to that the fact that neither of us were on board, and the supply seems adequate. Clearly White Star knew from experience what was needed, as they couldn't afford to run out of the amber fluid - four Webleys would have been totally inadequate to quell the resulting mutiny.
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Donald J A Smith
Member
Username: don
Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:26 pm: |
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My own 'thirst' - for every factual, fun-frothed draught of information from Bob - is unquenchable. |
monica ahll
Member
Username: monica
Post Number: 217
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 11:47 pm: |
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Inspired by the example of Andy Dalziel on TV, had another look and, yes if the booze is only for a one-way trip, it is more than adequate if a bit unbalanced to my mind:
If 70% of all men drink beer = 4 bottles a day
Say 400 wine drinkers in 1st & 2nd class = 2 glasses a day
If there are 300 dedicated spirit drinkers in 1st & 2nd, they have to stagger their way though about 12 shots of spirits a day, and they'd be pretty stiff ones too, as there were only 1200 bottles of minerals aboard. However, they'd need those maybe to accompany the 3 Havanas a day that seem to have been provided for each man in 1st & 2nd. Smoking rooms must have been busy, that's 1000 cigars a day. If you halve the amounts, on the assumption that it was to cater for the return trip as well, then 1st & 2nd men might have sobered up a bit, but the wine ration would seem a bit stingy given all that fine dining. I can't believe I've just done these ridiculous calculations. Must try to get a grip.
(ps got my egg calculations wrong - it's about 20 eggs for everyone for the trip, which makes more sense.) |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1186
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 1:45 am: |
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Monica, you really shouldn't judge others by your own standards. We all know you have been known to demolish 14 pints on a good night, but most of us guys can't compete. The actual consumption of beer in the UK in 1912 was an average 0.6 pints per day per man, woman and child in the population.
If we assume that the population on board Titanic was made up of a roughly similar mix of gender, age and social class (though it probably wasn't!), then 3 pints per passenger would be sufficient to maintain the normal level of drinking from Southampton to New York. That amounts to less than 4000 bottles. Add the return run and we still need less than 8000 bottles. Even allowing much leeway for variations in cultural backgrounds, age and gender compared with the UK population, plus the possible effects of a party atmosphere in 3rd Class, 15,000 bottles ought to have allowed a good reserve to meet the demand. Now, wanna go to a real party?
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Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 662
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 4:01 am: |
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Bob, the buried silver trolley story you heard is true, it was a magnificent silver roast beef trolley from the Elizabethan Grill and it was buried in the Palm Court as the Japs were going to the hotel for dinner that night!
There were a few trolleys used for serving in the Grill when I went down there this morning, so I don't know which one is it. But its true, I have also read that it is still in service.  |
Shelley Dziedzic
Moderator
Username: shelley
Post Number: 1733
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 4:27 am: |
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Little late arriving on this one- yes- it is called a silver domed trolley. I had the pleasure of seeing these in that famous carvery in the Strand, Simpson's. The Savoy still has them too and they are primarily for roasts-got a photo somewhere....Mrs. Beeton's has an illustration. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1187
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:52 am: |
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Thanks, Jeremy - good to have confirmation from the man on the spot! |
monica ahll
Member
Username: monica
Post Number: 218
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 10:05 am: |
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"And still they gazed, and still the wonder grew,
That one small head could carry all he knew."
Bob, how DO you know such things? Anyway, passing over the gross calumny that I can match William Hague, pint for pint, I concede the argument, faced with such a battery of statistics.
"Can we be expecting him anytime soon?" "Not so long as the cigars and brandy hold out". Jack could have done her in oils .... |
Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 674
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 12:35 pm: |
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>>The person that ran the restaurant, was it run by an independent company like the Ritz on the German liners, or was it White Star but employed 'outside' people?<<
As redirected by Bob, but anyway I have found that out - it was ran by Gatti. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1190
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 5:24 pm: |
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A few more statistics for you, Monica. Bearing in mind the large proportion of Americans in the Cabin Classes, it's notable that about 80% of Edwardian American men smoked at least one cigar a day, but a lot of them would have smoked only one per day - after dinner, of course. The actual per capita consumption figure for 1912 was less then 2 cigars per week. That means (very roughly) that about 5,000 would suffice for Titanic's voyage to New York and back, and the stock of 8,000 allowed a comfortable reserve.
Titanic also carried a stock of cigarettes and cut tobacco, but I don't know if the quantities are on record. In 1912 the demand for manufactured ciggies was about to take off but still relatively small, while the weight of cut tobacco sold for pipes and roll-ups would have been about equal to that of the cigars. I don't know whether White Star made any provision for the demand for chewing tobacco, which was still the biggest market. Any spitoons in the debris field? Chawing wouldn't have been encouraged in the 1st Class saloon, I suspect!
As for the wine supply, again the Restaurant had its own stock and this might not be included in the generally quoted figure of 1500 bottles in the White Star inventory. But some part of that supply might have been cheap plonk for the 3rd Class contingent, many of whom came from countries where wine rather than beer was favoured at all levels of society. Certainly there would be a likely demand for spirits as well as beer from the 3rd Class Bar, but I don't know whether any such demands were catered for. Does anybody know whether wines and spirits were available to 3rd Class passengers, and what, if anything stronger than water, could be obtained in the dining rooms?
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Daniel Klistorner
Member
Username: danielr
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2004 - 7:23 am: |
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Bob,
There were indeed spittons on the Titanic. I have seen a few of these in photos of Olympic's 1st and 2nd class smoking rooms. I believe that Edith Rosenbaum, or was it Helen Candee that also made a (negative) comment about them.
Daniel. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2004 - 10:57 am: |
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Thanks, Daniel. It's a shame that Edy missed the opportunity to prove that she could "spit lahk a may-un"! |
Emilie Forest
Member
Username: lydia
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2004 - 5:39 pm: |
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I would like to know, why is it, that a person is so interested about the Titanic. I mean really fascinated, as if I had been there on the ship in 1912. Do you feel the same way? What are your reasons for your interest... I am french canadian and sure hope I do not make too many mistakes. |
monica ahll
Member
Username: monica
Post Number: 221
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2004 - 6:32 pm: |
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To be honest, Emilie, I don't know. I began by being interested in how such a disaster could befall such a large ship. It seemed silly. Then, as I learned more, it didn't seem so silly, but it did seem to be the sort of thing that human beings do all the time. They do their best to make things better, and it keeps going wrong. We do it all the time. We build the Aswan Dam, to improve the Egyptian economy, and then we are surprised when it destroys it. We are doing the same thing in China now. Something like the Titanic encourages you to think about these things. Lately, I must confess that I have been more interested in how those people lived. I don't ever feel I had been there in 1912, and I would not have wanted to be. But others on ET are interested in the technical aspects of how the ship sank - this is beyond me, I have to say. Don't worry about the English - you're doing just fine. Much better than I can in French. Il y a trente cinque ans que je l'ai appris a l'ecole. Is that right? I doubt it.... |
Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 210
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 6, 2004 - 1:44 pm: |
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Emilie, this group has some of the nicest people around - just keep on plugging, and you'll be fine. Like Monica, I was also originally intrigued by the actual disaster, but the minutiae of daily life back then has its own never-ending fascination...especially as it's still close enough to our time that we can still nail it down, while it's just far enough away that there's a piquancy to the facts. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 7897
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, February 7, 2004 - 3:22 am: |
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>>I would like to know, why is it, that a person is so interested about the Titanic.<<
I suppose it's a question of how something catches your interest and when. I became aware of it when I saw the 1953 movie, but later encountered A Night To Remember when I was in the 2cnd Grade. When I realized it was a real ship and not just a Hollywood story, I was hooked and it never really let go.
>>I mean really fascinated, as if I had been there on the ship in 1912. Do you feel the same way?<<
Errrr...no. I've never even had so much as a dream about it, much less some sort of deja vu sense of having been there. These days, the human story aside, most of my interest is of a technical nature, and if you wonder why that's the case, it helps to know that I'm a retired sailor who had a lifelong interest in maritime history anyway.
I hope that explains things.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2370
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, February 7, 2004 - 11:09 am: |
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Hallo Emilie -
I can't say that I've ever felt as if I was actually there. I've heard or read some folks describe the way in which they were drawn to the disaster in quasi-mystical or near religious terms, and for some the pull is inexplicable. I've never viewed it in anything like that light myself - Titanic is not my sole area of research interest. I won't go into great detail, but there are certain elements of life in Ancient Egypt during the Amarna period that intrigue me. A number of influential and interesting women emerged during the Tudor period that also have a draw. Irish history, particularly the War of Independence and the Civil War, resonate well both with my interest in the complexities of nationalism and my religious and cultural background. The American Civil War was the product of involved issues that are intriguing to contemplate, and involved men such as Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain that appeal to both my political background and love of language and ideas.
I tend to take be somewhat old-fashioned in my interest in historical personages rather than movements and wider forces, seeing the latter mainly through a fascination with the former. My interest in the Titanic is the combination of a number of identifiable factors, such as my environment (living by the sea engendered a love of the ocean and a fascination with ships and seafaring, and this naturally progressed into a focus on the crew of the Titanic) and the draw of the cultural and social mileau of the pre-WWI era.
It's not a big problem, but you've posted this in a specific thread regarding dining aboard the ship - that may hinder getting responses to your question. As you read into the history of the board, or if you do a search on the board in some of the more general topics, you'll find that many other people have come forward with reasons why they feel so drawn to this particular event.
I'm not sure what mistakes you're worried about making, but if it's your English you're concerned about I wouldn't be at all worried if I were you! Your meaning is coming across clearly in all your posts. |
