| Author |
Message |
    
Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 114
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 4:36 pm: | 
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Hi all,
Is there any evidence that the lights in the public areas on board were turned off on the night of the 14th April as an encouragement for the passengers to go to bed? And if so, which ones, and at what time? I suppose that the lights would have been turned back on when the passengers were being roused?
Also, does anyone know where I can get a starchart showing the night sky on 14th April?
Best wishes
Paul
----
Paul's Bizarre WebAbode: http://www.paullee.com
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Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 202
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 6:55 pm: |
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There's http://www.polaris.net/services/starchart/starchart.php online, or you can get a downloadable version at http://starchart.sourceforge.net/download/versions.html.
As I understand it, the rooms were closed one by one by that room's steward when it became empty. |
Donald J A Smith
Member
Username: don
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 7:53 pm: |
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"showing the night sky on 14th April" Well, Hello Paul - The night sky of 14/15 April 1912, and as it was visable so sharply above Titanic - is that shown in the illustration by my fellow 'Hampsteadite', Fortunino Matania. You now only need to turn to the interesting article 'Anatomy of a Boat Deck Portrait', written recently by Senan Molony - and right here on ET! |
Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 1665
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 8:07 pm: |
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For some comments on the sky, see my site at http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/stars.html
David Billnitzer has correctly pointed out that the sky in the Matania drawing is all wrong. I've confirmed it using a computer program. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1144
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 8:10 pm: |
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Paul, check out this thread for info on the 'lights out' policy:
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5921/53282.html |
Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 203
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 8:12 pm: |
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There is also an interactive sky dome at http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/skychart/ that can send you back to the Night of April 14-15, 1912 (you will need to click on the word "Skychart" in the upper left). They haven't put in the Lyrid Meteor Showers, which more than likely was the one that caused the falling stars, but they are working on it. |
Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 115
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 11:10 pm: |
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Hi everyone,
Thanks so much for your help.... would it be fair to say that, at the time of the collision, the Titanic's public rooms would have been lit?
I know that the 1st, and probably 2nd class dining saloons would have their lights on as the stewards prepared the tables for the next morning, and I recall that the 1st class smoking room was still occupied....are there any others that anyone can recall?
Best wishes to you all!
Paul
----
Paul's Bizarre WebAbode: http://www.paullee.com
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Donald J A Smith
Member
Username: don
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 11:59 pm: |
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Hello, again, Paul - Mrs Astor and at least one other lady - perhaps others with their maids - completed dressing for the lifeboats in the gymnasium - which must have been lighted. I am hugely impressed by the helpful response to your 'sky-at-night' query. Almost obsessively pains-taking in researching the smallest detail of every illustration (another double-spread - of the Titanic Inquiry - is 'virtual reality'!), Matania nonetheless did not have the benefit of modern computers - or the ET message board. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1145
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 1:04 am: |
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Paul, it's likely that only the 1st Class Smoking room was still fully lit at the time of the collision. All of the saloon stewards who gave evidence at the two Inquiries testified that they were in bed by then - none mentioned being on duty later than 10.30pm. The only people still working in the First Class Saloon (dining room) were the night watchmen, who came on duty at 11pm. In 2nd Class, Chief Steward Hardy was responsible for ensuring that the public rooms were closed up and the lights off at 11pm, and he too was in bed at the time of the collision. The public facilities in 3rd Class had of course been closed and unlit since 10pm.
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Pat Cook
Member
Username: cook
Post Number: 816
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 9:35 am: |
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Well, apparently there were some stewards still on duty. Lawrence Beesley wrote that, after the collision:
"...I jumped out of bed, slipped on a dressing-gown over pyjames, put on shoes and went out of my cabin into the hall near the saloon. Here was a steward leaning against a staircase, probably waiting until those in the smoke-room above had gone to bed and he could put out the lights."
I have always wondered who this man was. I had originally thought of James Witter, who was seen just after this outside the stewards quarters (according to Walter Lord). Also, Hardy did mention in his testimony that four stewards were kept at their stations between the hours of eleven and twelve.
Hope this is of some help.
Best regards,
Cook |
Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 116
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 10:34 am: |
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Thanks for all your help!
(Just one more little question: would the lights in the public gangways, such as boatdeck and A-deck promedades, also be left on?)
Cheers to you all!
Paul
----
Paul's Bizarre WebAbode: http://www.paullee.com
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:21 pm: |
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Hi, Cook. It was the saloon stewards (ie the waiters) who were off duty for the night (the people that Paul thought might have been laying tables). There were always a few bedroom stewards on night duty, along with the night watchmen. One of these, James Johnston, survived and his testimony at the British enquiry is interesting in shedding some light on the night duties. Johnston's own 'zone' was in and around the 1st Class saloon, and he appears to have had supervisory responsibilities for others who kept watch elsewhere: "There is a bedroom steward and a night watchman on each deck, and all the third class and all the second class reported to me each night when they came on watch".
I'd forgotten about Beesley's encounter, which makes it clear that the 2nd Class Smoking Room also was still in use and with lights on at the time of the collision.
Paul, Hardy stated that he went off duty "after going around the ship and seeing that all the unnecessary lights were out". I seem to recall reading elsewhere that that included most of the lights on the promenades and companionways other than those needed for passengers to find their way back to their cabins. He was referring to the 2nd Class areas, but I imagine a similar policy would have been followed in 1st Class.
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Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 204
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 2:01 pm: |
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Something occurs - I imagine, Paul, that your question was originally asked because of the description of the Titanic by the Californian? But I imagine most of the lights were turned back on after the collision and when the passengers and crew were awakened, yet I've never heard anyone mention this. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2309
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 9:35 am: |
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Interesting insight there from Dave, Donald, Bob and of course Cookie (how many times has Beesley's text 'shed light' on a question, eh?). You working on a new angle, Paul?
One thing that intrigued me was the indication of the light level on the boat deck during the evacuation. Lowe, for example - although he didn't delve into the issue during the inquiries - later told John Simpson's sister that the doctor had given him a torch to assist him on the boatdeck (an interesting indication of where the electric torch he was later seen carrying by witnesses such as Sara Compton came from). Another witness, when pressed on the identification of an officer, replied that it was difficult to tell who it was because of the darkness. While it's difficult to find too much supporting evidence that this darkness was materially a factor in hindering the loading and lowering of the lifeboats, it surely didn't help. |
Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 117
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
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Hi everyone,
Well, one thing I am interested in is allowing people to view various aspects of the Titanic disaster via Java based applets, so that anyone with a web browser can experiment with how the disaster might have turned out had things been different.
My first attempt at this idea (modelling the flooding of the Titanic) has been put on hold, but my next idea is to show what people on the Titanic and Californian (and later on, Carpathia and Mount Temple) would have seen the night of the disaster.
Big project, but it should be worthwhile in the end!
Best wishes
Paul
----
Paul's Bizarre WebAbode: http://www.paullee.com
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Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 205
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 7:52 pm: |
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That sounds absolutely wonderful!
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Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2313
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 9:35 pm: |
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Ah - good stuff, Paul! I saw your earlier post referring to this project and found the description tantalising. Applying the same sort of analytical and perceptive approach you do to your other sphere of interest will make this a fascinating project for us to follow. The simulation idea is great - although inevitably if the results on the Californian don't match the preconceptions or ideas of the viewer (whatever side they take on the controversy) you'll cop criticism from some quarters. Sounds like you're taking great pains to be as specific as possible in what data you input, though, so the results are going to be interesting - to understate matters! |
Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 118
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 5:31 pm: |
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Hi all,
I don't really mind if pro-Lord or anti-Lord people say "thats not whats in the testimony", I'm just going to show what it would have looked like that night.
I'm toying with the idea of extending the simulation to show the early morning scenario, which may be tricky as it would have to show the icefield, which may be very controversial, even a highly simplified view as I am proposing.... so...another question (!).... is there a website that calculates what time the sun rises and sets for a given day and co-ordinate?
Best wishes to all!
Paul
----
Paul's Bizarre WebAbode: http://www.paullee.com
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Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 207
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 5:38 pm: |
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The Bahá'í Fast page at http://www.bcca.org/misc/fasttime/srss.html does. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 7699
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 5:51 pm: |
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>>I don't really mind if pro-Lord or anti-Lord people say "thats not whats in the testimony", I'm just going to show what it would have looked like that night.<<
That's about all you can do. However, I wouldn't confine myself to just the testimony. You might want to check out authors claims, affidavits, etc, and present something along the lines of "This is how it would have looked if what [insert name of claimant here] asserted was true."
You'll catch some heat for it no matter what, but you'll be in good company, so don't let that stop you.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Lee Gilliland
Member
Username: teamtunafish
Post Number: 208
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 5:55 pm: |
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Heavens, Michael, you wouldn't be inferring we're a disputatious lot, would you? I'm shocked, I say, SHOCKED! |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 7701
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 6:03 pm: |
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Who? Moi???
Naaaaahhhhhh....not a chance. Why everybody knows that we all agree on everything in sight! 
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Philip Hind
Administrator
Username: admin
Post Number: 815
Registered: 12-1999
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 7:02 pm: |
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Please give threads sensible titles "Some questions....." is meaningless to later searchers. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 2319
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 10:32 pm: |
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quote:I don't really mind if pro-Lord or anti-Lord people say "thats not whats in the testimony", I'm just going to show what it would have looked like that night.
Good idea, Paul - there are a few folks that have attempted to set out some basic visual or audio simulations of various scenarios to work with, and some of these have proved useful for both sides (often, as with the testimony, it's a matter of interpretation). Unfortunately so much of the input data is still in dispute - distances, light levels, questions of any visual or audio distortion, orientation of the ships. I imagine your simulation would allow tweaking of the data you use - the potential to be a very valuable tool! I'm heavily (and somewhat unusually) left-brain visually orientated, and so when discussing navigational issues will frequently ask people to make their arguments using props. It's led to some interesting arrangments of salt and pepper shakers filling in for ships that night, a newspaper icefield and a lovely pint of Guinness standing in for the Titanic. Your proposal would be very welcome to people who process information in a similar way!
An excellent person to consult on the sun rising/setting is Markus Phillipp - indeed, the question has been raised before on this messageboard:
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5921/5329.html
I don't know if the email address Markus used in that thread is still viable, but I've had private discussions with him regarding visible light (actual sunrise vs pre-dawn light) and he has provide extensive and very helpful notes.
quote:You'll catch some heat for it no matter what, but you'll be in good company, so don't let that stop you.
Quite true, Mike - and getting hit by traffic coming both ways is one reason why I rarely comment on this subject any more. However, much of the sting seems to have gone out of this previously acrimonious subject...when Phil gave me the job of moderating the 'Mystery Ships' thread, I expected a dust-up each week. That hasn't happened - partly, perhaps, because people have reached saturation point on this debate and don't want to rehash the same old material and viewpoints, but I'd like to think that at least some of it is because regular ET posters are more interested in discussion rather than baiting and flaming. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 7705
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 6:51 am: |
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>>but I'd like to think that at least some of it is because regular ET posters are more interested in discussion rather than baiting and flaming. <<
I hope so. A slew of ad hominums veiled and not so veiled don't really halp anyone understand the comlexities of the situation, much less the reasons for the debate in the first place. I reached my burn out point quite awhile ago for just this reason.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Tracy Smith
Member
Username: tracy
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:17 pm: |
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I agree, Mike. I got tired of the ad hominems myself, so I've put the Californian issue on the back burner for awhile -- at least so far as discussing it here goes.
"Swift, vigilant, and bold"
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Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 124
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 11:26 pm: |
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Hi all,
I've put a posting on the Sinking forum which hopefully should explain my ideas more fully.
Best wishes
Paul
----
Paul's Bizarre WebAbode: http://www.paullee.com
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George Pastarmatzis
Member
Username: fm123sparti
Post Number: 248
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 5:19 pm: |
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Hi all! It is my impression that all first class staterooms were locked after the collision in fear of robbery. But, how could one return to take something out or to retrieve valuables? Did the passengers lock up and took the keys with them or just left the cabins unlocked? Thanks!!!
George Pastarmatzis
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Donald J A Smith
Member
Username: don
Post Number: 62
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 6:47 pm: |
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George asked: "Did the [first class] passengers lock up..? Mrs Ryerson's French 'french maid', Victorine [Antoinette Victorine - 'A.V.' - Chaudanson], returned to their stateroom to fetch items for her mistress. While she was still there, a steward locked the door behind her! Fortunately, her frantic cries were heard, and the door un-locked. And, locked again, we may safely assume, when - shaken by the experience - she returned to the Astor-Ryerson party. 'Scotland Yard' or 'Scotland Road' logic, if correctly applied to this anecdote, should go halfway towards unlocking the answer to this important, interesting question. |
