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Etienne Michel
Member
Username: blueyoda
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 4:55 am: | 
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I'm surprised there isn't any thread about the band during the aftermath of the collision and subsequent sinking of the ship. Perhaps I haven't looked in the right places?
I'm specifically interested in knowing how long Wallace Hartley and his companions played after the collision. Is there any timeline that was ever suggested? I know there is much debate (that will probably never be solved) about the last song that was played but I haven't found any information about how long the band played.
Thanks for any information any of you might have! |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13328
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 4:06 pm: |
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>>I'm specifically interested in knowing how long Wallace Hartley and his companions played after the collision.<<
I don't think anybody has ever seriously attempted to cobble up a time line if only because nobody was checking anything against a stopwatch. It's been suggested that they kept on playing pretty near to the end and then either played "Autumn" or "Nearer My God To Thee" just before the ship sank.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Etienne Michel
Member
Username: blueyoda
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 6:46 am: |
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If I recall correctly, the last radio message was sent at 2:17 and Harold Bride stated that:
"Phillips clung on, sending and sending. He clung on for about ten minutes, or maybe fifteen minutes, after the captain released him. The water was then coming into our cabin. From aft came the tunes of the ship's band, playing the ragtime tune, 'Autumn. '"
After Bride came up on deck and helped with collapsible B before being thrown into the sea:
"The ship was gradually turning on her nose -just like a duck does that goes down for a dive. I had only one thing on my mind - to get away from the suction. The band was still playing. I guess all the band went down. They were heroes. They were still playing 'Autumn. ' Then I swam with all my might."
This means that the band played until at least 3 minutes before the ship sank. But how long did they keep at it? Did they keep playing after the lights went out? Or even after the ship broke in two? How would that even be possible? |
Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 3410
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 10:55 am: |
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I haven't time to chase every reference, but opinions on how long the band played varied quite a bit. Algernon Barkworth and Colonel Gracie thought they stopped playing about 20 minutes before the end. Steward Edward Brown said he heard the band in the last moments, while he was trying to launch collapsible A. The notoriously unreliable Harold Bride said they were still playing when he was in the sea. Take your pick!
The story of the band that played to the end was made more likely by the common assumption that it was a wind band, that could play on a sloping deck while making a considerable volume. We find this in early US books. The USA was the home of John Phillip Sousa and to the US press a band was a wind band.
I think the whole band legend should be taken with a grain of salt. Give the musos credit for doing what they thought to be their duty and let the details go.
Dave Gittins
Titanic: Monument and Warning.
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1630
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 4:16 pm: |
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The legend of Phillips according to Harold Bride.
If the water was already coming into their cabin, then the collapsibles A and b would have been floating free already, the crow's nest would have been submerged, and Bride would have had no time to climb up and go forward to help with getting them off. Also, from evidence on the bottom of the Atlantic, Phillips or Bride, pulled the switches to shut off the transmitter before leaving the wireless cabin. So Phillips was not still there transmitting when the power failed suddenly when all the lights went out as the ship started to break in two.
There are no Unsinkable Theories.
Sam Halpern
40° 23' 50'' N, 74° 13' 55'' W.
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Tad G. Fitch
Member
Username: tad_fitch
Post Number: 228
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 5:58 pm: |
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I think the water coming into the cabin while they were still there is one of the details that is not consistent throughout Bride's accounts, similar to the "air pocket" under Collapsible B differences between his American and British inquiry testimony, how he back-peddeled in his description of his level of involvement in dispatching the stoker who tried to steal Phillips' lifebelt, etc.
I agree with Sam, and feel that it is highly unlikely that water reached the wireless room while they were still there. With the port list, Collapsible B would have already been floating free if water had reached that point, and as he points out, one of the operators threw the switches before exiting. |
Steve Shortman
Member
Username: boycie
Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 9:15 pm: |
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There is enough testimony to confirm that the band stood out on deck in the freezing cold night air playing music whilst they must have been all too aware that the ship was slowly getting lower in the water and in danger of sinking.
Simultaneously there were men jumping into lifeboats, hiding under thwarts and manoeuvring themselves into positions whereby they could calmly step into the boats just as they were being lowered.
Far from being a ‘legend’ who’s details should be ‘let go’ I believe the bandsmen’s exact movements and timeline that night is just as intriguing as Smith, Andrews, Ismay etc. So well done Etienne for raising an interesting question.
On the subject of Bride’s evidence I would have thought it was perfectly feasibly for the officers quarters etc to have become awash in perhaps 6 inches to a foot or so of water as the head was slowly sinking. The water at this time would not necessarily have been up above the officer’s quarters and hence would not have been able to wash Coll B away which would still have been lashed to the roof, or in the process of being released.
As Bride & Phillips were transmitting as long as possible why would they have left prior to the water reaching their cabin (unless the kit had packed up completely)? It seems more likely that the water reaching the cabin was the signal to finally get out of there. |
Will C. White
Member
Username: seastorywriter
Post Number: 17
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 11:16 pm: |
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I can well imagine that the band played as long as they could. I believe they where fully aware of the "score". No matter what they played, you cannot doubt their courage. As to pulling the power switch on the Marconi, in times of great stress you fall back on your training and he may have done it by rote, power or no. |
Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 4:33 pm: |
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quote:I would have thought it was perfectly feasibly for the officers quarters etc to have become awash in perhaps 6 inches to a foot or so of water as the head was slowly sinking. The water at this time would not necessarily have been up above the officer’s quarters and hence would not have been able to wash Coll B away which would still have been lashed to the roof, or in the process of being released.
If the ship had settled on an almost even keel this might be the case. But I'm afraid that is not the way it was.
There are no Unsinkable Theories.
Sam Halpern
40° 23' 50'' N, 74° 13' 55'' W.
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13334
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 7:30 pm: |
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>>Far from being a ‘legend’ who’s details should be ‘let go’ I believe the bandsmen’s exact movements and timeline that night is just as intriguing as Smith, Andrews, Ismay etc.<<
That may be so, but the problem here is that the band's story is so steeped in myth and legend that it would be well nigh impossible to sort out the hard kernals of truth from the legends that have been spun.
The decidedly questionable reliability of Bride's account is suspect on a lot of levels. Keep in mind that if water was entering the wireless shack then the whole sinking process was snowballing. If Bride and Phillips were still in the shack as the water was coming in, then it's at the point where things are happening so fast, they would still be in the wireless shack when the hull hit the bottom.
I'm not saying that Bride lied, but I think he conflated the events to such a degree that he got things mixed up.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Etienne Michel
Member
Username: blueyoda
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 4:39 am: |
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Michael, everything about the Titanic is steeped in myth and legend. Does that mean we should stop speculating about her? I think not and this is what I have found about the band's last moments:
Let's examine the testimonies of two of lifeboat #6's passengers:
Helen Churchill Candee's and Harold Bride's testimonies are identical, if we are to believe Bride confused "Nearer My God to Thee" with "Autumn" as analysed by J. Marshall Bevil, Ph.D. (http://home.earthlink.net/~llywarch/tnc02.html.htm) inbetween the time the captain relieved Phillips and Bride of their duties and the time Bride helped with collapsible B.
Bride: "Phillips clung on, sending and sending. He clung on for about ten minutes, or maybe fifteen minutes, after the captain released him. The water was then coming into our cabin. From aft came the tunes of the ship's band, playing the ragtime tune, 'Autumn.' Phillips ran aft, and that was the last I ever saw of him alive."
And later:
"I felt I simply had to get away from the ship. She was a beautiful sight then. Smoke and sparks were rushing out of her funnels. There must have been an explosion, but we heard none. We only saw a big stream of sparks. The ship was gradually turning on her nose -just like a duck does that goes down for a dive. I had only one thing on my mind - to get away from the suction. The band was still playing. I guess all the band went down. They were heroes. They were still playing 'Autumn.' [which Harold might have confused with "Nearer My God To Thee" as per J. Marshall Bevil's conclusions] Then I swam with all my might."
Compare this with what Helen Churchill Candee said about what she last heard of the Titanic's band (excerpted from a May 1912 account she penned for Colliers Magazine under the title “Sealed Orders." http://www.charlespellegrino.com/passengers/helen_candee.htm):
"About the time Harold Bride ascended the roof, Helen Candee also heard the song Autumn. Unlike Bride, she happened to be watching and listening from the relatively calm and safe vantage point of Boat 6, from which she recalled hearing the waltz followed by the beginning of Nearer My God to Thee."
Marjorie Newell Robb was also on lifeboat #6 and she was a violonist (although that doesn't testify of any musical talent even though she went on to teach violon after the disaster; but one would assume she had a musical ear) and she claims to have heard Alexander's Ragtime Band, One O'clock in the Morning I get Lonesome, Turkey in the Straw and The Merry Widow but NOT Nearer my God.
One thing that is puzzling to me is that not only are these accounts contradictory but lifeboat #6 was lowered at around 12:55 which is a full hour and 21 minutes before Bride testified he heard "Autumn" at 2:10.
Are we then to conclude that lifeboat #6 stuck around long enough within hearing distance of the band playing (perhaps because of Molly Brown's insistance that they go back for survivors?) for a full hours and twenty one minutes until Bride and Candee heard "Autumn" followed by "Nearer My God To Thee"?
These are early conclusions from my (as of yet) limited research but from what I've gathered, the following songs were played during the sinking:
Irving Berlin - Alexander's Ragtime Band
Irving Berlin - One O'clock in the Morning I Get Lonesome at 1:00
Turkey In The Straw - American Folk song
Franz Lehár - The Merry Widow
And very near the end, between 2:10 and shortly before the sinking (2:16) and in that order:
Songe d'automne
Nearer My God To Thee
I fully expect to be rebuted but hopefully that will bring us that much closer to discovering the mysteries of the band's last moments on the great ship. Not that we'll ever uncover the full truth but it's the exploration that's fun, isn't it? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13347
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 4:49 am: |
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>>Michael, everything about the Titanic is steeped in myth and legend. Does that mean we should stop speculating about her?<<
Context please.
What I said was That may be so, but the problem here is that the band's story is so steeped in myth and legend that it would be well nigh impossible to sort out the hard kernals of truth from the legends that have been spun." and so far, you've really offered nothing that would change that picture. Especially in the context of the original question which was mooted over a timeline.
It doesn't help in this instance that as you yourself pointed out, the testimony itself is contradictory.
Not that you aren't free to persue it to your heart's content as you certainly are. However, unlike the technical forensics issues that I take an interest in, anything you can come up with is going to be excruciatingly difficult and often impossible to put to any sort of test.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Charles B. Weeks Jr.
Member
Username: charles_weeks
Post Number: 222
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 2:00 am: |
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This past semester one of my students as part of her class project played the violin while standing on a plank inclined at 15 degrees above horizontal. I believe that was the angle of inclination as the bridge went under. So I believe the band could have played almost up to the end.
Regards,
Charlie Weeks |
Roy Kristiansen
Member
Username: whh
Post Number: 756
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 12:14 am: |
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Hi, Charlie!
>>"...one of my students...played the violin while standing on a plank inclined at 15 degrees above horizontal."
What was the air temperature at the time? Instrumental musicians' fingers take a beating outside even with a nominal drop in the night-time temp. Forget about any super-fast passage work. Those Titanic boys leave me awe-struck.
Roy |
Sam Brannigan
Member
Username: avawines
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 10:51 pm: |
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Hi Charles and Roy,
Interesting experiment!
As a one time bass player who used to rehearse in a literally freezing hall every Saturday morning (no heat, middle of November/December) I seem to remember that after playing for a while the old fingers limbered up nicely (to paraphrase ANTR "They don't listen to us at dinner either...let's play anyway, it'll keep us warm!).
The real problem was with the fingers on the bow hand, for the bass players anyway (we used French bows). It was REALLY uncomfortable, but by no means impossible to play.
"...it's all Titanic, this."
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Charles B. Weeks Jr.
Member
Username: charles_weeks
Post Number: 223
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 2:19 am: |
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Roy:
From what she told me I'd say between 35 and 45, I'm not exactly sure. She did it down on the waterfront in early April here in Maine in an empty boathouse. She used a staging and a couple of wood timbers. I'm not certain just how long she played for. She was looking for a topic for her class project. When I discovered that she had an interest in music I suggested she try to find out how difficult it would have been for the band to play while inclined at 15 degrees. She played the violin, but she commented that the cellist might have difficulty, trying to sit and play on the slope.
Regards,
Charlie Weeks |
Jeremy Aufderheide
Member
Username: jerauf
Post Number: 50
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 3:27 pm: |
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Slightly off-topic, have they found any of the band's instruments in the debris field? Remember the scene in "Raise the Titanic" when they find the French horn?
I'm sure wooden instruments would have pretty much rotted away. But the horns would still be there. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3644
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 3:51 pm: |
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They would still be there if they'd had any, but the Titanic bandsmen played only stringed instruments. The bugle sounded by a steward to announce dinner will be out there somewhere. |
Scott R. Andrews
Member
Username: scottandrews
Post Number: 348
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 8:13 pm: |
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I would imagine that there's an outside chance that some of the instruments the string players carried with them might still be intact within the wreck or in debris field IF they were still in their leather cases. Certainly, the instruments they were carrying with them and were actually playing that night are long gone, but I've yet to know a professional musician (outside of the pianists) that didn't carry a "spare" with them, or a second, different instrument that they might be called to "double" on when required. The Restaurant Musician's quarters were smack in the middle of the break-up, on E Deck to starboard of center and hard against WTB "K" at the forward end of the reciprocating engine room; any properly cased instruments that survived might be somewhere in the debris field. However, quarters of the remaining musicians were further aft on E Deck -- an outside stateroom on the starboard side, hard against the forward side of WTB "O" in the midst of the 2nd Class area in the stern. Depending on how badly the structure between the Nos. 5 and 6 Hatches was torn apart, there might yet be a violin, viola or cello in a leather case buried in the debris and sediment somewhere in all of that chaos.
Regards,
Scott Andrews |
Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 1771
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:36 am: |
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Don't know, but Wallace Hartley's violin case, presumably with violin, was found strapped to his back. Whether that means he had time to prepare for the final plunge, well, YMMV. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3645
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:58 am: |
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There's no primary source for the tale that Hartley's music case or violin case (versions vary) was strapped to his body. The list of effects recovered with the body mentioned nothing of the kind. |
Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 1772
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 1:25 am: |
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I'm sure I read this in the recovered effects of Hartley. Boxhall mentioned it too (according to Titanic Voices) |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13416
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 4:21 am: |
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>>I'm sure I read this in the recovered effects of Hartley<<
I've heard that one too, but I've never seen any sort of primary source to back that up. According to the information in his bio (See http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/442/ ) he had the following on his person when he was found;
quote:EFFECTS - Gold fountain pen, "W.H.H."; diamond solitaire ring; silver cigarette case; letters; silver match box, marked "W.H.H., from Collingson's staff. Leeds"; telegram to Hotley, Bandmaster "Titanic"; nickel watch; gold chain; gold cigar holder; stud; scissors; 16s; 16 cents; coins.
That's it. I'm wondering if the claim of the violin in the case being found on his person was one of those newspaper inventions. There were a lot of those out there.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3646
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 10:28 am: |
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And Boxhall made his comment almost 50 years later, when musing on what was right and wrong about the film version of ANTR. He wasn't speaking from direct experience, just from what he'd heard or read about the body like the rest of us, so in this case his opinion is of no particular value. |
Brian J. Ticehurst
Member
Username: briantice
Post Number: 330
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:51 pm: |
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Perhaps they were confused by the following:
also there is a Wallace Hartley Memorial Violin made by Mr. A. C. Seth of Lancaster. This violin is in constant use by the Burnley Youth Orchestra, Lancashire.
Thats from Titanic Memorials Worldwide - Where They are Located.
Cheers Brian |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13425
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 3:29 pm: |
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>>...also there is a Wallace Hartley Memorial Violin <<<
Mmmmmm....that just might do it. It's amazing how a simple statement like that can "improve" in the telling.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Lucy Steigerwald
Member
Username: lucystag
Post Number: 145
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 1:06 am: |
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Charles, that's such an interesting experiment! What do you teach?
"Lad, if 'e was in that and came through it, 'e'll do you son, 'e'll do you."
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Charles B. Weeks Jr.
Member
Username: charles_weeks
Post Number: 224
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 1:51 am: |
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Lucy:
I teach Ship's Structure, Introduction to Marine Transportation, Cargo Stowage, Stability and an elective course NS-415, R.M.S. Titanic. In that course each student has to submit a project. Most do a Term Paper based on secondary research, however some use primary research such as the one I mentioned in my previous post. We do several things designed to enhance the students appreciation for what it was like to be there that night. For example, each student has to perform Murdoch's Maneuver on the bridge simulator. Interestingly several have managed to miss the berg.
Regards,
Charlie Weeks |
Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1660
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 1:59 am: |
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Lucy. CLICK on this: http://marinetrans.mma.edu/cweeks.html.
I assume Charlie that this site up to date? Looks like your teaching NS-301 from the prop your using.
There are no Unsinkable Theories.
Sam Halpern
40° 23' 50'' N, 74° 13' 55'' W.
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