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Matthew Bird
Member
Username: matthewbird
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 1:53 am: | 
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According to witnesses, just as water started coming onto the boat deck, a large crowd of steerage passengers incl many women poured out of the first class entrance.
I've just wondered for a long time, what they were doing moving through that forward part of the ship at this late stage in the sinking and by which route they came.
If they had been in the stern section i would have assumed they'd have got up top via the second class stairway. I might be wrong though.
did anyone survive from this group of people? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14745
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 2:10 am: |
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>>did anyone survive from this group of people?<<
Since we have no way of knowing who was in this group, I don't think anyone can answer that question. Unless they were one of the lucky few to get on the overturned collapsible, or get pulled out of the sea after the ship sank, I don't think it likely.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1317
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 5:26 am: |
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Matthew,
Some accounts place Olaus Abelseth among this group. Supposedly, he and a swarm of others flooded the boat deck just as the forward dipped under. He got off on starboard side via either one of the snapped funnel lines draping down or a life boat line. He survived, I think, in Collapsible A and made his way to a farm in Montana where he died of old age in the 1970s.
As for their passage, please remember that the depths of that ship were like a maze, so several stragglers were squirreling about where they could to find access to the top. Yes, they could have made their way up to the poop deck or aft well deck--it certainly would have been easier--but many of those who struck out on their own had done so earlier with hopes of making it to the boat deck, which is somewhat difficult--although not impossible--to access from the aft well deck. Panic and confusion have a way of causing people to do things that are not always common sense.
The most likely route would have probably been Scotland Road on E-Deck, as it was by far the largest passageway I know of that was below decks. Still, maybe someone else can postulate or add to that with other possibilities.
That makes me wonder why those waiting in the stern didn't simply just go up and wait on the well deck for help. If the gates weren't locked or insurmountable, why did they remain below? This is one thing about which I am still a bit uncertain, as there are several possibilities into which I will not venture to discuss here. If someone decides to bring them up, though, I won't hold back.
Just my input.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3771
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 9:22 am: |
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You can rule out Abelseth. It's clear from his own testimony (US Inquiry) that he got to the boat deck via the after well deck, relatively early when boats were still being loaded. |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 521
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 6:43 pm: |
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Mark >>Panic and confusion have a way of causing people to do things that are not always common sense.<<
Tunnel Vision. Their minds become locked on one course of action even when another more better course of survival presents it self.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
"With Recollections of bygone happy days."
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1318
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 7:31 pm: |
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Bob, I guess the other sources are obviously wrong, then, including ANTR, which is the source where I think I read it. I thank you for the U.S. Inquiry reference. I will certainly check it out.
quote:Tunnel Vision. Their minds become locked on one course of action even when another more better course of survival presents it self.
Exactly, but not only that. When people are locked in a life-threatening situation, their minds tend to fly with thoughts of death, so they just move. This is not rational, but it is human.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 527
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 8:10 pm: |
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Mark >>Exactly, but not only that. When people are locked in a life-threatening situation, their minds tend to fly with thoughts of death, so they just move. This is not rational, but it is human.<<
True !!
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
"With Recollections of bygone happy days."
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Matthew Bird
Member
Username: matthewbird
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 11:18 pm: |
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Thanks for the reply's, just something i was curious about, even if it is somewhat morbid.
I wonder if they were the "mob" that people in Boat 2 reported seeing at the gangway, this would have been late in the sinking so....
sad story. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14762
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, October 7, 2007 - 2:03 am: |
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>>If the gates weren't locked or insurmountable, why did they remain below?<<
It may well have been that they were waiting for somwbody to tell them what to do. It's hard to devine the thoughts of even one person, much less several hundred who didn't survive. Gates certainly weren't an issue because they were located in only two places below decks. One was up forward on E-deck in the 3rd class area, and the other was located at the base of the ladder going down into a vegetable preperation area. None of them wer any barrier to getting up from below, and the 3rd class accomadation up forward was abandoned early in the sinking.
Cathy Akers-Jordon did a wonderful job of putting the whole locked gates myth to rest at the 2006 symposium. If any of you have Powerpoint, her presentation can be accessed on This Webpage.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1319
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 7, 2007 - 6:06 am: |
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Michael,
I am certainly well aware of this, among other possibilities. The fact that other immigrants disregarded the order to wait and then struck out on their own seems to eliminate the enculturated attitude of "accepting one's own fate," otherwise one might presume that all of the immigrants would have waited because they'd have all shared the same class attitude. They didn't. Each person is different, yes, and deciding to wait was probably one factor. But I suspect there were other reasons, too. That's why I asked. If it had been such an obvious answer, I wouldn't have asked the question.
As for Cathy's site, I already saw it. You posted it at least four times for me already, hehe, although I realize that the link is for anybody interested. As described above, I disregarded the gates as a factor right away because of Cathy's findings.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Cathy Akers-Jordan
Member
Username: cathyaj
Post Number: 184
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 7, 2007 - 1:59 pm: |
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Hi Michael and Mark,
Thanks for reading my presentation from the 2004 Titanic Symposium! I'm turning it into an article to submit to the Commutator.
Since the Symposium I've found several additional passenger accounts of locked gates/doors/barriers (usually doors) so although there is no physical evidence of gates below decks, I now believe there were at least some physical barriers (in addition to all the cultural and psychological barriers).
Cathy
Cathy Akers-Jordan
Davison, MI
USA
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14776
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 4:19 am: |
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>>Thanks for reading my presentation from the 2004 Titanic Symposium! I'm turning it into an article to submit to the Commutator.<<
I had no trouble reading it the first time since I was there when you first presented it. I'll be looking forward to seeing it when it appears in the Commutator.
I don't know how much of an impact it'll have. Like a lot of other stories, the locked gates thing is so deeply ingrained in the mythos that I doubt it'll ever go away.
>>I now believe there were at least some physical barriers<<
That much wouldn't surprise me. The funny thing is...or perhaps not so funny in view of the price in lives...is that there was probably little need for such. The way the ship was built, she was practically made to order for class segragation, and making the crossing of such divisions very difficult.
>>otherwise one might presume that all of the immigrants would have waited because they'd have all shared the same class attitude. They didn't.<<
I'm aware of that. Unfortuantely, for every one who appeared to break the mould, there seemed to be just as many who were inclined to wait for instructions, at least until the situation became so untenable that the only choice was to take matters into their own hands or drown like rats in a trap.
That a lot of these people didn't come up until very late in the sinking speaks to a sort of inertia on some level. Whether it was the crew keeping them down (vis a vis the Little Hitler Syndrome that Brian Ticehurst once spoke to) or the passengers waiting for instructions is the really intriging question.
It may well have been both.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1320
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 6:24 am: |
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quote:Thanks for reading my presentation from the 2004 Titanic Symposium! I'm turning it into an article to submit to the Commutator.
I found it very interesting, Cathy. Please let me know in which issue it will be featured, and I will make it a point to read it.
That reminds me: How/where do I subscribe to the Comutator? I wanted to before but never had a chance to do so.
quote:the locked gates thing is so deeply ingrained in the mythos that I doubt it'll ever go away.
Well, Mike, with this new development, there might actually be some truth behind that mythos, although locked doors do not necessarily spell out a deliberate 'lock-in' of steerage passengers. The stewards might have forgotten to unlock the doors in question during the growing chaos and other emergency duties to which they had to attend. After all, the doors were possibly kept locked on a regular basis. As you and others (including myself) have said in the past: Titanic was a class-segregated ship. Overlooking those doors would have been easy.
quote:Whether it was the crew keeping them down (vis a vis the Little Hitler Syndrome that Brian Ticehurst once spoke to) or the passengers waiting for instructions is the really intriguing question. It may well have been both.
Wow, Mike. A long time ago, when you and I were debating this, you seemed to insist that no favoritism took place, that the steerage were not deliberately held down. Now you're open to the idea of possible mal intent. True, this is not confirmed, and probably can never be, but it certainly is a possibility. Then again, it might have been a case where the stewards thought for sure that the order would eventually come, but it unfortunately never did. This would not have been the stewards' fault.
One thing I did learn here, especially from you, is to never jump to conclusions and to focus on the evidence at hand before making an assessment (although I'll admit that it is impossible for any human to form an entirely objective opinion; some partiality will always seep through. We are humans, after all, and subject to our own experiences).
The point two paragraphs above does raise yet another older idea, too: bringing steerage to the boat deck earlier. This would undoubtedly have ensured the survival of more of the third class than had been saved. Someone had once asked here (was it I?): With the impending danger looming, why didn't the stewards start ushering the steerage to the boat deck right away? Well, I am aware of a sailor's duty: Do what you're told--nothing more and certainly nothing less. If the captain did not issue an order stating that the steerage were to be brought up to the boats, then they were not, even if dangerous circumstances dictated it. This would be a sticky situation indeed, and one that might leave plenty of ship workers feeling regret in the wake of a great tragedy. As you once said: Panic might have ensued on the boat deck if any of the third class were to have been brought up early. The last thing the officers needed was a crazy mob swarming around them while they tried to load and lower the lifeboats.
quote:at least until the situation became so untenable that the only choice was to take matters into their own hands or drown like rats in a trap.
Yet another older but interesting point, that of disregarding the orders of authority for the sake of survival. IF the stewards had ordered the steerage to remain there and wait--either by force or persuasion--and then some of those passengers decided to disregard these instructions and strike off on their own when no further instructions came forth, are these individuals still considered in the wrong or out-of-line, even though their attempts secured their survival? Are those who did what they were told--to wait--in the right even though waiting sealed their deaths? Again: It's a very sticky situation.
This reminds me of that one scene in The Poseidon Adventure when the purser ordered everyone to stay put, but Reverend Scott challenged him and took a band of passengers upward to the engine room. They were the only survivors. IF the stewards had ordered the steerage to stay put, this would be a real-life example of how disregarding orders resulted in survival and listening didn't. It is very interesting and not always easy to answer to appease every level (legal, moral, ethical, human, etc.) at the same time because the issue can be a very complex and contextually specific one to address.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Will C. White
Member
Username: seastorywriter
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 7:11 am: |
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One thing that must be remembered is that these people were not sailors; and I doubt that many had any water experience whatsoever. If the crew didn't tell them, and they had no frame of reference to the actual level of danger they faced, they simply waited until the level of peril was so clear that there was little or nothing that could be done about it. |
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1321
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 8:07 am: |
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Will - then why did some of the third class passengers strike off on their own for the boat deck? I don't doubt the validity of what you are saying, but if the level of danger was that oblivious to the steerage, then none would have likely fled to the top decks.
Also, please remember that the bow started flooding early on, so the male passengers caught wind of it very quickly. Some headed for the top decks and others fled aft to warn and retrieve their female loved ones (including children), who sure as heck would have learned about the danger from the menfolk, regardless of what the stewards knew or said.
Just a thought.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 444
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 12:01 pm: |
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Mark,
To subscribe to the Commutator, visit this link:
http://www.titanic1.org/membership/index.asp
Tim Trower
Please visit www.TitanicBranson.com, the World's Largest Titanic Museum Attraction
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1322
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 12:23 pm: |
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Thank you, Timothy.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14789
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 4:15 pm: |
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>>Wow, Mike. A long time ago, when you and I were debating this, you seemed to insist that no favoritism took place, that the steerage were not deliberately held down. <<
Times change, new evidence emerges, I go with the flow, but take note of the qualiyers in my statement. I didn't say they were held down. I was speculating as to why they didn't come up, and offering two debatable possibilities. Very debatable as it happens.
>>Then again, it might have been a case where the stewards thought for sure that the order would eventually come, but it unfortunately never did. This would not have been the stewards' fault.<<
That may well have been the reality. Not only does that speak to a certain inertia, it also speaks to the claim by one of the officers that the Steerage was simply forgotten about. Miscommunication almost always comes along for the ride when things go to hell. Titanic was no different.
>>Well, I am aware of a sailor's duty: Do what you're told--nothing more and certainly nothing less.<<
(ponders) There is *some* merit to that, and all thr more so in 1912 where authority was never disregarded or questioned lightly if at all. Still, I have to point out that we sailors are not automatons and even in the early part of the 20th century, blind obediance was not expected to come at the expense of good sense.
Your orders to stay in a certain space for example are clearly rendered null and void if you see a wall of water heading right towards you.
BUT...and you had to know this was coming...what exactly was the situation down below, and what did the stewards know about it? If they had orders to detain the Steerage, and the situation didn't appear threatening, they would have seen little if any reason to exercise any initiative.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 578
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 10:44 pm: |
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I hope some big time producer sees this post or even a small time producer.
I've stated this before. They should make a movie about the Steerage passengers on Titanic and what it was like to coming to America. Your average person has this idea that steerage was locked bellow and the there was a deliberate attempt to keep them behind the gates of which there were several and away from the boats. Most people have no idea what it was even like in Third Class. Most movies are mostly about First Class. I myself had thought this was the case after seeing every Titanic movie which has steerage being locked bellow and dying when the ship sinks. So I hope they make a movie just about third class someday.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
"With Recollections of by gone happy days."
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 445
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 11:48 pm: |
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George,
Even given the Brobdingnagian size of the entire disaster, I doubt that a movie would ever cover just the Third Class. Sadly, the movie-going public would rather see the antics of supposed (and real) passengers and crew, and additionally it would be difficult if not impossible to tell the story of one class without including the others -- at least on the periphery of the screenplay.
Tim Trower
Please visit www.TitanicBranson.com, the World's Largest Titanic Museum Attraction
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1774
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 8, 2007 - 11:58 pm: |
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George. You said
quote:Most movies are mostly about First Class.
I thought Cameron's movie was about the contrast between 1st and 3rd classes. The forgotten class is 2nd Cl. Anyway, whatever you want in a movie can be done but you first have to write up a business case to show why it should be done.
There are no Unsinkable Theories.
Sam Halpern
40° 23' 50'' N, 74° 13' 55'' W.
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 586
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 3:34 am: |
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Well I figure that a movie of the week would be a good vehicle for a story about Steerage. Something entertaining and informative. The other classes could have a little show time. The reason I think it would be a good Idea is to battle the belief that steerage was locked below to die.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
"With Recollections of by gone happy days."
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14799
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 4:37 am: |
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>>The reason I think it would be a good Idea is to battle the belief that steerage was locked below to die.<<
I doubt a movie would achieve that. Now if somebody was to do a documentary that was well researched and with the available evidence being presented to show the reality as opposed to the myth, that might help a bit.
The thing is being able to justify the expense to somebody with the money to make this happen.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1323
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 5:34 am: |
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quote:Your average person has this idea that steerage was locked bellow and the there was a deliberate attempt to keep them behind the gates of which there were several and away from the boats.
That's the thing about the whole mythos case, George. I tried to clarify above that although some doors were locked below that doesn't mean that the steerage were pinned down deliberately, because there is no evidence of this. You must remember that the mindset of those who lived in that era was class-segmented, meaning that society placed differing values on people based on the particular class to which such a person belonged. Unfair according to our standards perhaps, but that's the way it was.
That said, I don't think that those who ran liners would likely have forced steerage to remain in the bowels of a sinking ship with the intent that they die there. Yes, as one researcher put it, steerage were deemed as "cattle," but legal entities had a thing about such discriminatory practices. The last thing a ship's captain would want to face (should he survive a tragedy) was charges of potential murder.
In this particular case, miscommunication was probably a major factor regarding what happened to the third class. As one officer testified, the steerage was all but forgotten in the chaos. That doesn't mean they were deliberately left to die.
quote:The thing is being able to justify the expense to somebody with the money to make this happen.
The sad thing is, most people fall into the mythos, so would they buy a telling that contradicted what they had believed all along? Probably not. They'd likely think it was a "cover up" of what actually happen. Producers think ahead of time regarding these things, and many are smart enough to know that you don't invest in a project that will inevitably cause that proverbial bomb to explode. However, movies like that have been made before, and precisely for their controversial nature. That's one reason, in my humble opinion, why many Titanic film makers have conveyed such beliefs in their vehicles--because such beliefs have been popular and increased the "star power" of said movie.
I am with Mike: Do a serious documentary first to introduce the reality in an academic or non-entertainment venue so as to gradually indoctrinate the public by feeding people gradually until that reality is set like cement in their minds. Throwing such a unappealing and unexpected set of conclusions on them all at once will likely have negative effects.
quote:If they had orders to detain the Steerage, and the situation didn't appear threatening, they would have seen little if any reason to exercise any initiative.
The thing is, too, Mike, that the third-class men knew early on what was going on because they had fled the inundating forward section. The stewards might not have had enough knowledge to exercise an initiative, but, sure as heck, the menfolk did.
I wonder what type of conflict [might have] occurred between the stewards and menfolk who insisted on sharing their hair-raising experiences forward.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14808
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 6:01 am: |
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>>The sad thing is, most people fall into the mythos, so would they buy a telling that contradicted what they had believed all along? Probably not. <<
I think it would depend on how you spun it. Say a History's Mysteries with Arthur Kent, his little conspiratorial wink, and a hint of this being "The real story" along with hints of a salacious little cover up....
Hay, I'm not saying it would be logical, but it just might sell!
>>The thing is, too, Mike, that the third-class men knew early on what was going on because they had fled the inundating forward section.<<
But did they share that information with anyone back aft? I know if I was aware that the ship was sinking and I had made it topside, I wouldn't be particularly anxious to go back down below for any reason. (And I wouldn't linger long if I did!)
>>I wonder what type of conflict [might have] occurred between the stewards and menfolk who insisted on sharing their hair-raising experiences forward.<<
I suspect it would involve bruised knuckles and bloody noses. The finer points of diplomacy were often lost on these salt-of-the earth types, but they sure understood the direct approach!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 592
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 6:25 am: |
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I guess the closest I'll get is a docu-drama. I'd settle for that.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
"With Recollections of by gone happy days."
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1324
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 7:32 am: |
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quote:Hay, I'm not saying it would be logical, but it just might sell!
People tend to like gossip, or those stories conveyed in a gossiping fashion. The have an intriguing sense about them. The again, too much of the Marxist approach may dilute the heaviness of said truth. *shrugs*
quote:But did they share that information with anyone back aft? I know if I was aware that the ship was sinking and I had made it topside, I wouldn't be particularly anxious to go back down below for any reason. (And I wouldn't linger long if I did!)
No, I was referring to those family men (sons, brothers, fathers) who headed back down Scotland Road to retrieve their loved ones. It's understandable that they'd want to get their entire families out of there as soon as possible.
On the other hand, considering how many entire families perished (Sages, Goodwins, Rices, Skoogs), that strategy didn't quite work for everybody.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1325
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 8:06 am: |
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quote:I guess the closest I'll get is a docu-drama. I'd settle for that.
George, you make it sound as if a docu-drama is nothing. Hey, that might be just the perfect thing to introduce new information in both educational and entertainment contexts without the presentation being too much of either one. ;)
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 594
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 10:11 am: |
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Mark-
Docudrama are okay. I've just seen a few that were some real stinkers and they were in my mind when I wrote that post. I've also seen some good ones so I really could go with a docudrama. Example- I used to watch this show on E called Mysteries and Scandals about Hollywood celebrities past and present and some were good and others were absolute trash.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton Esq.
"With Recollections of by gone happy days."
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Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 3570
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 10:41 am: |
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Getting back on topic, the way to see if any of those who reached the boat deck at the last minute survived is to look at the list of survivors who allegedly went into the water. It's on this site.
Some of these were third class passengers. (Some are frauds too, but that's another story!)
It may be that their stories can be checked to see if any came from the crowd who came up the grand staircase. I suspect very few did.
Dave Gittins
Titanic: Monument and Warning.
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14809
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 4:24 pm: |
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>>The again, too much of the Marxist approach may dilute the heaviness of said truth. *shrugs*<<
Eh??? What Marxist approach? What I was suggesting was hinting at conspiracy as the bait on the hook. Conspiracy theories have an evergreen quality that cross political party lines.
>>On the other hand, considering how many entire families perished (Sages, Goodwins, Rices, Skoogs), that strategy didn't quite work for everybody.<<
Not really knowable I'm afraid. Getting the families out would be the easy part. The real trick would be getting them into a boat. As I understand it, by the time this crowd came up, there weren't many left. Most of the survivors were the ones who got up ahead of the last minute rush.
>>Docudrama are okay.<<
It would be if they took the time and effort to get it right. They claim to, but I've rarely seen any that were little better then a fictional account. Colour me skeptical of that approach.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1328
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 4:41 pm: |
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quote:Eh??? What Marxist approach? What I was suggesting was hinting at conspiracy as the bait on the hook. Conspiracy theories have an evergreen quality that cross political party lines.
Ah, when you mention conspiracy theories, I couldn't help but think of the "blow-it-all-out-of-proportion" view that Marxists tend to take. Sorry. Must have misunderstood.
quote:They claim to, but I've rarely seen any that were little better then a fictional account. Colour me skeptical of that approach.
Yeah, I remember when you used to criticize the History Channel big time, Michael. Do you still feel the same way about it now?
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1329
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 4:44 pm: |
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quote:As I understand it, by the time this crowd came up, there weren't many left. Most of the survivors were the ones who got up ahead of the last minute rush.
And the four families I mentioned were only a miniscule portion of, say, how many families altogether? There were a lot, an not only in steerage!
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14821
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 5:41 pm: |
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>>how many families altogether?<<
Quite a few. The Allisons for example, and how many down in 2cnd Class?
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1330
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 - 7:10 pm: |
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quote:and how many down in 2cnd Class?
I'd have to pull out Eaton and Haas and count off the list in the back. But I do remember one of those compilers responding to a post of mine a long time ago, saying that it was still incomplete for some reason. Do you remember that?
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14823
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 5:21 am: |
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>>Do you remember that?<<
Not offhand. So much has gone on here over the past seven years that I've been a part of it that I just can't keep track anymore.
You might find that a useful topic for an article of your own. It's not as if the 2cnd cabin ever recieved a great deal of attention.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3773
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 8:59 am: |
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If I remember right, in 2nd Class there were no casualties in family groups where young children (ie under 12} were travelling with their mother only. But in every case where the father was present (7 or 8, I think) he was lost and the rest of the family survived. |
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1335
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 11, 2007 - 12:26 pm: |
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I will check out the entire passenger manifest to get an accurate tally. That would even help in comparing the loss of entire families in each class.
quote:You might find that a useful topic for an article of your own. It's not as if the 2cnd cabin ever received a great deal of attention.
I'm not sure what new angle I can take on it or what new information can be illustrated through such an article, but continuing research always finds something new regarding the insightful. Comparing the tallies will undoubtedly bring up new associations never before considered. I'm just not quite sure how far to go with the research.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3775
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 11, 2007 - 9:22 pm: |
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I don't think you'll find any entire families with children lost in 1st or 2nd Class, but there were some adult family groups who went down together. In 1st Class there were the Strauses and the Whites (father and son). In 2nd Class the married couples lost were the Carters, Chapmans, Howards, Lahtinens and Turpins. Also several groups of brothers - the Giles, Gales, Hickmans and Jefferys. Any more? |
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1340
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 11, 2007 - 10:21 pm: |
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Allisons and Wideners (father and son) in 1st class. As for the Carters, do you mean Billy and Lillian (Lucille?) Carter? I though they were saved, each in a separate boat (Billy in Collapsible C?). I can find more by looking through the list. Even though entire families remain exclusive to the 3rd class, it's interesting to note some of the patterns emerging here with respect to each class. I am even thinking of expanding the viable categories to include, say, young adults, teens (did any teens under 18 die in 1st or 2nd class?). See? These categories might make it easier to determine and assess the losses in each class/cabin.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3777
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 11, 2007 - 10:34 pm: |
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I was thinking of family groups lost in entirety - that rules out the Wideners and Allisons. The Carters in 2nd Class were Ernest and Lilian, who both died. |
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1342
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 12:19 am: |
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Ah, well I wasn't sure to which category you were referring. You brought up several types of groups--entire families, couples, brothers, and father and son--in that paragraph, so I mentioned those that came to mind.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14862
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 3:56 am: |
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>>I'm just not quite sure how far to go with the research.<<
As far as your questions take you as well as any need to tie up loose ends, Mark. There may not have been entire families lost in the 1st and 2cnd cabin, but for some it was a near run thing. All else aside, attention to the second class is long overdue given just how invisible they've been on history's radar screen.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1346
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 11:07 am: |
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quote:As far as your questions take you as well as any need to tie up loose ends, Mark.
Of course, that's always true. I'm just not certain if my questions touch on something yet undiscovered or merely on pieces of information already ascertained yet unknown by me. Doing the research will determine that as well, eh? hehe.
quote:All else aside, attention to the second class is long overdue given just how invisible they've been on history's radar screen.
This is true, although it appears as if Bob has already been on top of that, hehe. Maybe readers could benefit from a focus on 2nd class losses.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3779
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 11:17 am: |
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I wouldn't say that the 2nd Class have been overlooked by Titanic historians or by this forum, but they do get the least coverage in the feature films. In ANTR the token 2nd-Class couple are barely distinguishable from 1st Class, and are provided with a stateroom which most 1st Class passengers would have envied! And in the Cameron epic, where class distinctions are an essential element of plot, these middle-range passengers are nowhere to be seen. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 14882
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 6:02 pm: |
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>>I wouldn't say that the 2nd Class have been overlooked by Titanic historians or by this forum<<
True, they're not, but preportionately, just how much attention do they get overall? Even in here? Seems that a lot of people are interested in the Rich and The Famous or the Poor and Disgusting. Unless you're sombody like Lawrance Beesley, nobody seems to notice.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Roy Kristiansen
Member
Username: whh
Post Number: 782
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 10:43 pm: |
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Hi, Michael!
>>True, they're not, but preportionately, just how much attention do they get overall? Even in here? Seems that a lot of people are interested in the Rich and The Famous or the Poor and Disgusting. Unless you're sombody like Lawrance Beesley, nobody seems to notice.
Agreed. There were many terrific people and stories in the 2nd Class. Oh, well {sigh!) . . .
Titanic Liturgy. Titanic Icons.
Roy |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3780
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 11:36 pm: |
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>>Proportionately, just how much attention do they get overall? Even in here?<<
Looking at the Passenger Research section and its main sub-sections "Biographical - 1st Class" etc we can get some idea of the differing levels of interest in this forum. By comparing the total number of posts in each section, adjusted according to the number of passengers who travelled in that Class on the Titanic, we get a ratio very like the ratio of ticket prices! Very roughly there are almost twice as many posts per passenger in 2nd Class as for 3rd Class, and almost twice as many again for 1st Class as for 2nd. This suggests that (bearing in mind their numbers) it's the 3rd Class, not 2nd, who attract the least interest as individuals. But we need to remember that the 1st Class in general had a much higher profile in the Media of the day, so there's more scope for debate and for passing on of information. The further down the social scale we go, the greater the anonimity and the less there is we can say about individuals.
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 464
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 12:13 am: |
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When looking at the numbers that Bob has analyzed, it is indeed a stunning reflection of the interest that there is regarding the lower socio-economic classes. His conclusion is correct, and we can neither flux, nor whither, nor change its state in any measure.
I've just finished revision of a book review of "Titanic Eyewitness: My Story" by Frank Goldsmith for "The Titanic Commutator", and I am struck by two things. First, in my collection, I have accounts that are primarily by or about First -- and the occasional Second Class passengers. The second point is that the Third Class is even forgotten, it seems, even by those who were there and could recount their experiences.
One last thing is to do a Google search on Sarah Roth, Third Class survivor, and then run another on John Jacob Astor IV, First Class passenger. How many hits did YOU get for each person?
Tim Trower
Please visit www.TitanicBranson.com, the World's Largest Titanic Museum Attraction
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 12:36 am: |
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Timothy -
What about comparing the number of hits between Sarah Roth and, say, Lawrence Beesley? Maybe even Eugene Peter Daily or Daniel Buckley--two very well known 3rd class passengers--and any of other 2nd class passengers. The band members, who were booked as 2nd class, are famous, but are they so for being members of 2nd class?
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 465
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 1:04 am: |
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Sure, and you might include Frankie Goldsmith in that number. But these are the exceptions, not the rule.
Tim Trower
Please visit www.TitanicBranson.com, the World's Largest Titanic Museum Attraction
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