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Gelareh Manghebati
Member
Username: gelareh
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 2, 2007 - 1:28 am: | 
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I assume there should have been a whirlpool when the ship was going down. Does anyone have any information? |
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1597
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 2, 2007 - 2:33 am: |
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Gelareh,
For there to have been a whirlpool, something would have to had created it. The bow of the Titanic went down slanted to port before the aft-middle section crumbled away. The stern portion of the ship wasn't even erect as commonly believed, but lying in the water, also leaning to port with the very end kind of jutting out and up high enough for those in the life boats to see the propellers. This particular orientation was maintained as it, too, slipped into the water--not enough to have cause a significant whirlpool.
Please see the stages described here at www.marconigraph.com for visual assistance. Just follow the appropriate links on the list to the left.
If I forgot to consider something else that might have contributed to such a phenomenon, perhaps someone else can chime in with some news.
Just my input. Hope it helps.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Robert T. Paige
Member
Username: jnb
Post Number: 817
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 2, 2007 - 2:57 am: |
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6075. And did you find yourself in the water?
- Yes.
6076. Did you feel that you were dragged under or did you keep on the top of the water?
- I do not believe my head went under the water at all. It may have been wetted, but no more.
6077. Are you a good swimmer?
- Yes.
Testimony of Charles Joughin
http://www.titanicinquiry.org/BOTInq/BOTInq06Joughin01.php
Respectfully Submitted,
Robert T. Paige
"The best I've seen, ma'am....Hardly any rats."
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 2, 2007 - 3:56 am: |
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Yes, I remember hearing that he stepped right off the tip of the stern as it slid, not twisted/corkscrewed, into the water. He was considered the very last person off that ship that night. If such a whirlpool had existed, he would have certainly been pulled down. Thanks, Rob.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1846
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 3, 2007 - 4:36 am: |
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Why would any sinking ship create a whirlpool? I know why a whirlpool is created in a bath tub when you pull the plug to empty it, but on the open ocean?
There are no Unsinkable Theories.
Sam Halpern
40° 23' 50'' N, 74° 13' 55'' W.
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1605
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 3, 2007 - 3:21 pm: |
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My thoughts exactly, Sam--no source of creation.
I wonder if the poster making the inquiry is thinking of suction. Supposedly, that's still in debate, although it seems to have been proven to have never occurred.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1848
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 3, 2007 - 3:52 pm: |
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quote:And now, concentric circles seized the lone boat itself, and all its crew, and each floating oar, and every lance-pole, and spinning, animate and inanimate, all round and round in one vortex, carried the smallest chip of the Pequod out of sight.
There are no Unsinkable Theories.
Sam Halpern
40° 23' 50'' N, 74° 13' 55'' W.
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David G. Brown
Member
Username: brown
Post Number: 2120
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 3, 2007 - 9:09 pm: |
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Great literature does not have to be accurate. By the way, what was the name of the narrator character in Moby Dick?
I think a lot of people mistake "whirlpools" with the downflooding of a ship as it sinks. Often, some portions of the hull or superstructure are pulled under before they have filled with water. The result is a sort of waterfalls effect as the ocean tries to fill the empty spaces. This was probably the sort of event that trapped Lightoller against the fiddley grate.
A word of warning to those who are busy thumbing the opening pages of Moby Dick. There is a trick to the question about the identity of the narrator. Think individually about each of the three words in the opening sentence. You'll need a dictionary and a Bible concordance.
A literary snob is somebody who hears "Starbuck" and does not think of coffee.
-- David G. Brown |
Will C. White
Member
Username: seastorywriter
Post Number: 128
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 6:01 am: |
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David-T'was Ishmael. Hope you're feeling better. WILL |
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1613
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 7:57 am: |
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David-
Sorry to hear about your surgery. I can only imagine what awful things your stomach is making you do nowadays. Good luck and get well soon.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3879
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 10:08 am: |
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The narrator does not, as far as I can recall, offer his real name but suggests rather that we call him 'Ishmael' - a biblical reference which suggests an orphan or outcast, a wanderer cut off from his roots. |
David G. Brown
Member
Username: brown
Post Number: 2121
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 12:53 pm: |
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Bob has it right! The narrator asks us to "Call me Ishmael," but never gives his correct name.
As to the surgery...no sympathy should be extended my way because the whole affair was my own damned fault. Shouldn't have driven my Jeep in front of such a large truck. It only took a week to fix the Jeep. I'll be on the mend a bit longer.
If anyone wants to read Moby Dick (and you should), I have several copies in my library. However, my favorite sea story is The Bird Of Dawning by John Masefield. The one copy in my library never goes out the door!
-- David G. Brown |
Sam Brannigan
Member
Username: avawines
Post Number: 131
Registered: 2-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 1:59 pm: |
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Sorry to hear about your troubles David. Get well soon!
I'm particularly fond of Nicholas Monsarrat's sea stories, especially "The Master Mariner".
To go back to the topic, is it possible that a sinking ship (not necessarily the Titanic) could create a whirlpool by turning on a point and creating a depression on the surface as it sinks?
Is there definitive evidence that the Titanic did not sink in such a way?
I suppose the most likely area for whirlpool hunters to look at would be the point of the break up. There must have been some sort of suction or process that accounts for the sheer amount of missing bodies of victims.
I realise it would be an extremely morbid and depressing area of study, but at the point of the break up there must have been a surge of water into the shattered hull from the immediate vicinity, which may have accounted for many victims.
The questions are:
How many people were likely to have been in the water at the point of the break up?
Where there any lifeboats close enough to the area? Their survival would dispel the ferocity of this incident. The collapsibles were in the water but presumably far enough forward to miss the effects (?)
How many people may have fallen in to the sea at the point of break up and then been sucked in to the ship?
How many people were pulled in to, or down to a distance, by the stern as it sank, not necessarily by suction, perhaps by becoming trapped against open ports or ventilators (as Lightoller experienced)?
To summarise, while there may not have been a whirlpool as such, is it fair to say that there were some pretty epic hydrodynamic forces at work which may account for the paucity of victims found by the Mackay-Bennet and others?
I realise a lot of these questions are hypothetical, and I apologise in advance if they have been covered elsewhere.
"...it's all Titanic, this."
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 15906
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 3:33 pm: |
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>>Shouldn't have driven my Jeep in front of such a large truck.<<
OUCH!!!!
At least you're still breathing and reasonably whole.
>>To go back to the topic, is it possible that a sinking ship (not necessarily the Titanic) could create a whirlpool by turning on a point and creating a depression on the surface as it sinks?<<
I don't think any such would be a whirlpool as it would be more along the lines of induced currents. Depending on how the hull twists around, they can be powerful in their own right. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a depression. I've seen any number of photos and motion pictures of actual ship sinkings and more often then not, what happens is that the surface is churned up be escaping air and debris.
>>Is there definitive evidence that the Titanic did not sink in such a way? <<
Ask Charles Joughin. (See his testimony above.) I don't know if I'd call it definative, but he represents the only one who actually rode the stern all the way down who lived to tell about it.
>>is it fair to say that there were some pretty epic hydrodynamic forces at work which may account for the paucity of victims found by the Mackay-Bennet and others?<<
I think it depends on where you were, but if you're thinking along the lines of "sucked down" I can't say as I buy that one. Anyone topside would have been left there. Anyone inside would have gone all the way to the bottom. I wouldn't read too much into the reletively small numbers of bodies recovered. Had the recovery vessels magically materialized there within a few hours of the sinking, I think more would have been recovered. However, recovery vessels didn't get out there or several days. By this time, the wind, wave, currents, and perhaps some hungry sea life had done it's work. Seeing just how small a human body is against the sea, I'm genuinely amazed that they recovered as many as they did.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 5:13 pm: |
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quote:Shouldn't have driven my Jeep in front of such a large truck.
Like driving a ship in front of an iceberg I presume? 
Stick to the bridge simulators. It's more realistic and a lot more safer.
There are no Unsinkable Theories.
Sam Halpern
40° 23' 50'' N, 74° 13' 55'' W.
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