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Ben Lemmon
Member
Username: megacheetah
Post Number: 65
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 9:41 pm: | 
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Everyone remembers the sight of that poor, abandoned little boy on E-deck in the '97 version of "Titanic." What were those doors that were about to burst open?
"Well, I believe you may get your headline, Mr. Ismay."
Benjamin D. Lemmon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:35 pm: |
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Ben,
That's a good question. I was looking at my plans (Chirnside's) for D and E Decks and they don't match exactly with Cameron's setup.
First, let's follow through the action: After Jack beat Lovejoy in a fight in the 1C dining saloon, he and Rose ran aft, busted through the doors on the starboard side, into a dark paneled wall (which doesn't seem to exist in the D Deck plans), went left about five feet (to starboard) and scuttled down a short flight of stairs that doubled back halfway down and open at the bottom to the left again. This opening would have been in a passageway that traversed across, not longitudinal, if the stairs that led to it were going toward starboard and then back toward port. This passageway, in which they saw the little boy, might have been a secondary corridor, such as the one containing E-65.
However, here is the conundrum: There is a staircase located across from E-65, but E-65 was next to the hull. When Rose and Jack came down the stairs, they looked both ways. The corridor in question ran on for a considerable distance in both directions. The boy they encountered was to their right, which would have put him farther port (although on the starboard side of the ship). The boy's father arrived through an adjacent corridor leading longitudinally from the stern, grabbed the boy, and headed port, toward the doors in question, which burst a moment later. The flood of water carried them all to starboard, which seemed to go on for at least a block. This could not have been the stairs across from E-65.
The only other nearby staircase was that located against the back of the third funnel casing and did go up through the 1C kitchen.
One guess is that it was this staircase, since it extended from the boat deck to E Deck, although it wasn't situated in the same place on Cameron's Titanic. The lovers went down while Lovejoy went up. This staircase was right at the aft expansion joint, which is the generally accepted location at which the breakup ensued. This area, too, is where the bloodied Lovejoy was when said breakup commenced--not too far from the top of the staircase in question. He probably thought the lovers went up to the boat deck and then followed.
Let us also consider the man and the boy. They did not speak English and were definitely not dressed as 1C passengers. The third-funnel staircase mentioned above hits 1C on E Deck, around E-62/63 and 66, so the lovers would have had to go down to either F or G Deck. The problem with that, however, is the 3C pantry is in this area on F Deck and the boiler casing on G Deck--no corridors.
Unless the lovers fled through the kitchens and 2C dining saloon on D Deck and entered 2nd or 3C from there. The problem again is that the 2nd class dining saloon opens to corridors to cabins immediately aft--no wall or staircase--and this is so close to stern that the water hadn't reached that far yet.
There IS a sort of twisting staircase that comes to E Deck from above along the back wall of the casing to the Reciprocating Engine Room, directly under the 1st/2ndC kitchens on D Deck. This staircase opens on the main hallway running lengthwise down starboard, with cabins and doors both aft and forward, and it is located in 2C.
My conjecture is that the mysterious staircase is either this one or the third-funnel staircase. The doors in question were presumably in the main corridor of E Deck on the starboard side, somewhere around the RB casing.
Keep in mind, too, that Cameron was likely not going by the exact layout, as many of the lower-deck arrangements did not coincide with the deck plans. This design was likely a matter of convenience to the plot rather than to accommodate accuracy, so you cannot necessarily rely on this to map out the lovers' flight plan on the real Titanic.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Ben Lemmon
Member
Username: megacheetah
Post Number: 66
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:45 pm: |
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Hmmm . . . I was wondering that. The plans I have in "Titanic, Triumph and Tragedy" do not agree with the direction they went. Still on the topic of the door, would there have actually been one like that on E-deck? If so, where would they have been??
"Well, I believe you may get your headline, Mr. Ismay."
Benjamin D. Lemmon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1852
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:55 pm: |
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Ben,
Sorry for confusion here. I was editing my post when you responded, so you might have missed a couple of things. The doors in question were likely in the main longitudinal corridor on E Deck on the starboard side, around the Reciprocating Engine casing, which fell directly below the 1/2C kitchens. Since there is no exact correlation between the actual deck plans and Cameron's, there is no way to determine for certain, but this appears to be the closest placement.
As for whether or not doors were actually located in the main corridors on E Deck, according to the deck plans, there were. Dotted lines suggest the location of a door or a gate. Whether they were double or single doors, I really don't know. Due to the width of the corridor, I would presume double. Doors (or gates) were fixed at the forward and aft ends of the Reciprocating Engine casing on either side. The aft door on the starboard side was right next to the "twisted" staircase that descended the back wall of the said RE casing.
Again, not perfect, but this is the closest area involved.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 17373
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 12:02 am: |
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>>That's a good question. I was looking at my plans (Chirnside's) for D and E Decks and they don't match exactly with Cameron's setup.<<
Since there was quite a bit about the interior which was given over to dramatic license, this shouldn't come as a surprise. They got the location of the Master-At-Arms shack wrong. On the fictional ship, it was along the side with a porthole so you could see the water creeping up outside. On the real ship, it was located along the centerline across from the forward 3rd class accomadation.
That said, the doors in this scene really weren't out of place. They would have been the typical non-watertight doors which lead into and out of various spaces and which are quite common on a ship.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1853
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 12:27 am: |
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quote: . . .and scuttled down a short flight of stairs that doubled back halfway down and open at the bottom to the left again. This opening would have been in a passageway that traversed across, not longitudinal, if the stairs that led to it were going toward starboard and then back toward port.
Also, let me point out that the staircase they descended might have been 'L'-shaped, which would have opened up on a longitudinal corridor. Again: the main corridor on the starboard side of E Deck.
By the way, it would seem funny that an aft door would burst open and flood water forward on a ship sinking at the head. If the lovers had somehow come out in the port side corridor on E Deck, the man would have run forward. However, no passenger cabins were located in this area on E Deck--that would have been Scotland Road, which, thinking about it, was where Rose and Jack busted through the wall and told Steward Hart to "shut up!" This corridor--Scotland Road--was by far larger than the one in which the little boy was found and couldn't have been involved in the 'bursting door' scene.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 2:33 am: |
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I have no interest in trying to work out what Camero depicted, but there seems to be some confusion with regard to Titanic's actual staircases.
>>There IS a sort of twisting staircase that comes to E Deck from above along the back wall of the casing to the Reciprocating Engine Room, directly under the 1st/2ndC kitchens on D Deck. This staircase opens on the main hallway running lengthwise down starboard, with cabins and doors both aft and forward, and it is located in 2C.<<
I do not believe so. My understading is that the twisted stairway descends from a passageway that leads from Scotland Rd down to the Engineer's quarters on the starboard side of F-deck. There is a small staircase near the Engineer's Mess for the port-side Engineer's rooms on F-deck.
Then there is the staircase just forward of the forward 2nd Class stairway that runs from D-deck down to E-deck with a separate continuance to F-deck aft of E-87 and descending near F-11.
The Steward's Staircase which descended from the Boat-deck, became port and starboard stairs between D and E-decks which is different from the Shipbuilder/Olympic plans.
Where can I find Mark Chirnside's plans?
Lester |
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1856
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 2:50 am: |
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Les,
I don't remember the link to Chirnside's site. Perhaps Mike, Jason or Mark can provide it.
As for the E Deck plans, I could email it to you now so you can see what I am talking about, but the PMs won't allow an attachment. There is a curved staircase between the RE casing and E-79. Please let me know if you know what it is. Thanks.
In any case, Ben asked, and this and the Steward's Staircase (right behind the third funnel casing?) are the closest in proximity to the area depicted in the scene to which he was referring.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1857
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 3:01 am: |
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View Image
I realized that this isn't Chirnside's, but it will show the staircase to which I am referring. Look at E-79. The staircase in question is just forward of that.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Ben Lemmon
Member
Username: megacheetah
Post Number: 69
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 3:11 am: |
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Ok, so now I have a new question, Mark. Right where the staircase meets the bottom near E-79, what does that line mean? Does it mean there is a wall there or does it just mean a barrier. I ask this because you said that the passage goes both ways for quite a distance.
"Well, I believe you may get your headline, Mr. Ismay."
Benjamin D. Lemmon
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Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1367
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 3:46 am: |
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Ben, There is a wall opposite E-75, otherwise you would fall 8.5 ft to the base of the steps, which descent port to Starboard from E-deck to F-deck.
Mark seems to believe the steps come from above and "This staircase opens on the main hallway running lengthwise down starboard" It does not. As I posted above: The stairway descends from a passageway that leads from Scotland Rd and goes down to the Engineer's quarters on the starboard side of F-deck.
I am not aware of any plans on Mark's web-site,
Lester |
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1858
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 3:59 am: |
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Ben,
I think it's a door. Considering that the cabins just aft of that point can be used as 1C, I don't see any reason why a wall would be there, as opposed to an accommodating doorway. Maybe it is a wall. It looks looks a door to me. Sorry about that.
If it is a wall, then the Stewards stairway would likely be your depiction. I think it is anyway, considering that the stairway in the movie accessed the kitchen. The details of the surroundings are different, but the location is about right.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1859
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 4:09 am: |
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Lester,
Thank you for the clarification. The one step of that staircase seems to overlap the wall and rest on the E Deck corridor, so I thought they were connected.
As for the wall issue, Ben was referring to the line over the corridor just before E-79, not the wall opposite to E-75. He was wondering if the corridor on starboard side continues on or ends right there. It appeared like a possible door to me. Sorry again.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Ben Lemmon
Member
Username: megacheetah
Post Number: 70
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 4:13 am: |
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Looking at my plans in "Titanic, Triumph and Tragedy," I would have to say that it's a door. The only reason I said that is because the plans in TT&T show every door way like a mathematical angle symbol. The area in question simply shows a line. I think that Cameron may have done research, but not as much as he has claimed. The film itself shows this off.
I have two side questions. How do you make your writing have character styles and more emoticons? The other question, did the film version of ANTR have gates like the ones in the 1997 "Titanic?"
"Well, I believe you may get your headline, Mr. Ismay."
Benjamin D. Lemmon
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Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1368
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 4:58 am: |
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Ben, Mark,
The plans in TT&T do not show all of the doorways. That one should show as WTD the same as it does aft of the 2nd Class Barber's Shop and also at the forward starboard corner of the Engine Casing. The matching WTD on the port-side is also shown as if it is a solid wall. Also near room 103 [post-side] and the 2nd Class Purser [starboard-side] those solid walls are also WTDs.
There was also a WTD at the end of the passageway immediately aft of the Reciprocating Engine Casing. The one that led to the Engineer's stairs going down to F-deck.
Many other doorways are not shown. You would need to do a detailed comparison with Bruce's plans. The ones on the Discovery Channel link I gave you.
>>did the film version of ANTR have gates like the ones in the 1997 "Titanic?"<< From memory yes. |
Ben Lemmon
Member
Username: megacheetah
Post Number: 71
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 5:10 am: |
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Water-tight doors are going to be considered as walls to me, at least during the time I need them. They'll be closed, and thus are no better than walls at the time. All I need are areas where my MC can travel at the time. Besides, if I need any extra plans, I already have the "Titanic" deckplans bookmarked. I can simply transfer there when I need to. Thanks for the interest, though.
"Well, I believe you may get your headline, Mr. Ismay."
Benjamin D. Lemmon
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1860
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:40 am: |
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quote:I am not aware of any plans on Mark's web-site
That was Bruce's site, Les. My mistake.
quote:How do you make your writing have character styles and more emoticons?
Ben, go:
Here: http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/cgi-bin/discus/board-image-lister.cgi
and here: http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=formatting
Samples:      
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Robert T. Paige
Member
Username: jnb
Post Number: 870
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 8:57 pm: |
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BTW- How accurate (or not) would you (Mark, Michael,Jason, et.al) consider the deck plans and the graphics for "Titanic-Adventure Out Of Time" CD-ROM game ?
Respectfully Submitted,
Robert T. Paige
"The best I've seen, ma'am....Hardly any rats."
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Robert T. Paige
Member
Username: jnb
Post Number: 871
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:06 pm: |
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>>Everyone remembers the sight of that poor, abandoned little boy on E-deck in the '97 version of "Titanic." What were those doors that were about to burst open?>>
Just an observation...maybe another "copy" from another film in "Titanic" (1997)
Titanic (1953)- Richard Sturges picks up girl in steerage class family...only in this version they are safely deposited in a life boat.
ANTR- Steward picks up abandoned boy and takes to upper deck...last seen awaiting final plunge.
Titanic (1997) - Jack and Rose start to pick up abandoned boy...who is picked up, apparently by his father as the doors burst open.
Respectfully Submitted,
Robert T. Paige
"The best I've seen, ma'am....Hardly any rats."
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Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 4428
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:48 pm: |
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quote:How accurate (or not) would you (Mark, Michael,Jason, et.al) consider the deck plans and the graphics for "Titanic-Adventure Out Of Time" CD-ROM game ?
The deck plans in Titanic: Adventure Out of Time are not great, as they are not entirely accurate. But they aren't the worst either. For instance, they have the Squash Court on F-deck, when it was clearly on G-deck, as Lester corrected me several years ago on here. Although, I give them credit for trying. I'm sure there are other errors in terms of location, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. Lester, have you got any?
As far as the graphics go, I found them to be quite good and still do. In fact, I was very impressed when I first played it.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 1951
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 12:51 am: |
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quote:For instance, they have the Squash Court on F-deck, when it was clearly on G-deck
Ah, but the entrance to the court was on F deck and then down a flight of stairs. And it was the only way out.
Sam Halpern
TITANICOLOGY
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Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Username: hoppy
Post Number: 1861
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 1:05 am: |
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One thing I didn't like about this game (aside from the fact that the game function itself wouldn't work for me, only the tour feature) was that I didn't have access to the entire ship, which would have been nice; predominantly 1C areas were available to me.
One inaccuracy that jumped right out was the front walls (partitions) that separated the 1C dining saloon from the reception area. Those featured in the tour/game were solid white w/o windows/glass. Or were they really white panel? No access to the saloon, either.
Another thing that stood out to me when I stood on the foyer to the aft-grand staircase is that A-36/37 weren't there--just paneling. The same for the purser's office on C Deck off the grand staircase, if I remember correctly.
The likely reason that these rooms were left out was due to their not being relevant to the game, but it would still have been nice to see accurateness here. Other than that, like Jason said, it was quite impressive.
By the way, some of those 1C suites were accessed by mini-hallways that branched from the main passageways to the door. How accurate is this? I thought all doors were right on the main passageways.
"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose!"
Rough-edged but harmless --Mark Hopkins
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Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 4434
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 1:30 am: |
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quote:Ah, but the entrance to the court was on F deck and then down a flight of stairs.
Yes, you're right, Sam. Minor correction to my post: The game actually has the Squash Court entrance on D-deck and the Squash Court on F-deck.
quote:The likely reason that these rooms were left out was due to their not being relevant to the game, but it would still have been nice to see accurateness here.
Actually, Mark, they had budget problems and that may have been the reason as to why those rooms weren't included. It's unfortunate that they weren't, as it would have made the game more accurate, as you said. I know that the reason that a lot of the doors were locked, was because of the very same issue. IIRC, they didn't allocate enough money for it. Very disappointing to say the least.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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Ben Lemmon
Member
Username: megacheetah
Post Number: 75
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 2:38 am: |
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This game sounds interesting. When was it made?
"Well, I believe you may get your headline, Mr. Ismay."
Benjamin D. Lemmon
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 17387
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 4:04 am: |
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>>Right where the staircase meets the bottom near E-79, what does that line mean?<<
Coming into this late, but I think that's a bulkhead. There were quite a few passages that simply dead ended that way if only to prevent one class from having easy access to parts of the ship where they weren't supposed to be. The lower decks could be quite a rat warran.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Ben Lemmon
Member
Username: megacheetah
Post Number: 76
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 4:20 am: |
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quote:"If that's where the rats are going, that's good enough for me."
I remember this quote when you said "rat warran," Michael. Were there really that many rats on the "Titanic?" If so, how the heck did they get there?
"Well, I believe you may get your headline, Mr. Ismay."
Benjamin D. Lemmon
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 17391
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 4:26 am: |
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>>Were there really that many rats on the "Titanic?" <<
Yes. I doubt there were a lot of them aboard, but they were there.
>>If so, how the heck did they get there?<<
Hidden in the food stores of just by going up the mooring lines. Rat gaurds weren't in common use then, and that made it difficult to keep them off.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 4438
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 3:01 pm: |
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quote:When was it made?
The game was released on October 31, 1996 by Cyberflix. It's a great game with a terrific plot; see here. If you're interested in purchasing it, it's available on ebay for a reasonable price and it pops up quite often.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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Matt Pereira
Member
Username: milner62
Post Number: 443
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 9:39 am: |
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Jason, the game is great but my orignal copy would never work for me it would play so far then freeze up and the cd was always very hot cause of the strange way the cd works I read the game cd scans back and forth constantly in the game which most that I was informed didnt. I couldnt play it on a windows 95 computer i got in 1995, and I still could only barely play it after the computer was updated to windows 98, and now with windows XP I got it to work but theres still that little freeze problem. Not to mention my orignal 1996 release I got new in 96 has a major crack in disc one now.
I have been looking forward to the game called Survivor, which has the Titanic in it where your supposed to survive the sinking I think but I dont know its been like 5 years literally since I heard about it and theres nothing new about if or when it would be released.
Back to where these doors were located at they look alot like the ones in the Adventure Out of Time game that was found on scotland road. Its possible Cameron borrowed from this. But the thing is though on the port side I dont recall doors being on the starboard side of E deck which is where they would have appeared at after leaving down those stairs at the aft end of the Dining Saloon on D deck. The only door aft of where they would be is what I assume to be a manual water tight door like found on the bulk head between the swimming pool and the turkish bath. If you watch the movie you see them looking at the stairs that they just came down and water is pouring down the stairs which indicates that door is aft which means the water is coming in from the stern towards the bow which if this door was accurate it would be water pouring forward through the bulkhead on E deck dividing the Recprocating engine room and Boiler room #1.
But this is just a movie they threw in stuff to make it more interesting to a wider audience than just us historically correct buffs. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 4197
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 11:24 am: |
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Replay Studios, the German company who began work on the Survivor game back in 2004, have been sidetracked by other projects but have more recently announced that they hope to release the game at the tail end of this year. That might, of course, be wishful thinking! |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 4646
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 4:29 pm: |
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quote:I couldnt play it on a windows 95 computer i got in 1995, and I still could only barely play it after the computer was updated to windows 98, and now with windows XP I got it to work but theres still that little freeze problem.
That's one of many problems, associated with attempting to play the game on a computer with Windows XP.
quote:I have been looking forward to the game called Survivor
I haven't heard of it before, but it sounds interesting.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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Matt Pereira
Member
Username: milner62
Post Number: 444
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:49 am: |
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It is. The game in the orignal release put you through disasters that you must survive and supposedly you get points for being the hero and helping others,ect. Some of them that is in the game at first was the 9-11 world trade center disaster which I heard that was removed a few months later, Hurricane Andrew I belive it was, Titanic and some others that I dont know off the top of my head.
But if they are still working on it atleast theres some hope. I was starting to think they gave up on it. |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 4659
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 3:32 pm: |
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Ah, yes. I remember it now.
Thanks, Matt.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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