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Message |
    
Will C. White
Member
Username: seastorywriter
Post Number: 265
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, April 9, 2009 - 5:24 am: | 
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Sam-I tend to agree. It sounds like somebody yanked it open, either on purpose or by accident. However, just as a by-the-way, were there any main conduits deep enough in the ship to have been damaged at the outset by the collision? I've seen large wires neatly clipped in half or "skinned" and go to ground by smashed conduits. WILL |
Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 2428
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 9, 2009 - 3:13 pm: |
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>>were there any main conduits deep enough in the ship to have been damaged at the outset by the collision?<<
I highly doubt it Will given the allision with the berg only caused several seams to open up in the shell plating. To my knowledge, which is somewhat limited, they did not run any conduits along the ship's side.
Sam Halpern
TITANICOLOGY
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Richard Brown
Member
Username: rickyb
Post Number: 67
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 10:24 pm: |
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I have been giving some more thought to the boiler room lights, and I still think they are important in discovering what time things happened. Here is a rough timeline, using the lights going out at as a plan. This assumes all testimony is what happened (which is of course up for debate) and also that Scott was in the turbine room the whole time (he may of course have been in the engine room after the watertight doors closed).
0:00 Collision -
0:00 Scott sees all stop.
0:01 all watertight doors close - Scott cannot see telegraph anymore
0:10 Barrett finds BR6 flooded
0:12 men are ordered topside
0:14 lights go out in BR's (may be earlier)
0:14 Barrett gets firemen to get lamps
0:14 Hesketh orders Hendrickson to get lamps
0:15 Hendrickson gets lamps. All engine room watertight doors are closed still (Scott still cannot see telegraph)
0:16 Hendrickson leaves with already prepared lamps. Soon after Hendrickson leaves, BR 1 door is opened 2 feet (probably to let the engineers see when the lights come back on). Turbine room door may also be opened at this point or in the next couple of mins. (no time though between this and Olliver arriving for engines to run ahead, due to the tight timing for him to see BR1 door up and lights off, as lights come back on mins after Hendrickson left the engine room).
0:17 Olliver arrives with note, Hendrickson enters BR6.
0:18 Olliver leaves engine room, at no time do the engines move. BR lights come on just after Olliver leaves. Barrett heads off to get more men.
0:19 Hendrickson arrives at BR5
0:22 Olliver see Smith signal half ahead, Scott sees the same in the engine room, where the watertight doors are now open. According to Scott half ahead goes on for 10 mins. Olliver doesn't really know, probably for at least 5 mins.
Of course the times may be out, but I think it is significant, as to my mind if Scott was in the turbine room and the lights were out for only a few mins, then the half ahead order must have been given after Olliver left the engine room. This would put the half ahead order at up to 20 mins after hitting the berg (which is what Jim/Sam suggested on the other thread), and at least 15 mins after hitting.
Oh, and Hendrickson seems to be confused. I think he went to the engine room twice, once early on to get the lamps, when the watertight doors were closed, the second to report the water entering the hatch. He refers to both as being 45mins after the collision (and seems to get the two trips confused). Clearly it must be the later one which was 45 mins after the collision. Would there have been 3rd class passengers at around 15 mins after the collision wandering aft with luggage? He claims this happened when he went to get the lamps. |
Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 2447
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 11:28 pm: |
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Didn't Cavell talk about 3rd class on E deck after he came out of the bunker?
I too think Hendrickson was mixing things up when he testified. Seeing the hatch cover balloon up would have been very early on after the collision, the same time he saw water down at the foot of the spiral staircase. That hatch cover was located on the same deck his quarters were on. When they called all hands about 20 minutes after the collision, water was seen coming up around that hatch on G deck (see Symons and Pitman), and was seen flowing down the spiral stairs from G deck just aft of the hatch a few minutes before (Threlfall). Could it be that Olliver saw the ahead order before he was given the note to take to Bell? Olliver says nothing about engines moving or not that they were stopped when they took to the boats.
There always seem to be more questions than answers.
Sam Halpern
TITANICOLOGY
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Richard Brown
Member
Username: rickyb
Post Number: 68
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 11:37 pm: |
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Actually, Olliver said
Senator BURTON.
Where did you find the chief engineer?
Mr. OLLIVER.
Down in the engine room.
Senator BURTON.
What we he doing?
Mr. OLLIVER.
He was at work down there.
Senator BURTON.
Were the engines running?
Mr. OLLIVER.
The engines were not running. They were stopped.
So the engines were not running at that time. |
Richard Brown
Member
Username: rickyb
Post Number: 69
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 11:40 pm: |
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Yes, Cavell did report that. As for the rest, I am starting to think that Hendrickson only went to the engine room once. Although where 45mins come from I dont know. |
Richard Brown
Member
Username: rickyb
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 9:18 am: |
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Heh, I was just thinking of Hendrickson in a loop. He saw the hatch flooding, went to the engine room for lamps, went to get men from the forecastle, saw the hatch flooding, went to the engine room for lamps, went to get men from the forecastle, saw the hatch flooding etc etc. |
Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 2449
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 3:19 pm: |
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That's what happens Richard when I rely on memory instead of going directly to the source. Shows how fallible one's memory can be. Thanks for keeping me honest.
But it is possible that Smith may have rung down STOP shortly after handing Olliver the note if the engines ran ahead again for only 2 minutes (Dillon 3727-3729). But then you may be right in Olliver seeing the ahead order given after returning from engine room. That would also tend to explain Beesley's observation of the ship moving ahead shortly before he saw them start to uncover the boats.
By the way, when Olliver said he saw Smith ring AHEAD HALF it was on a blacked out bridge. It's not clear the telegraphs were actually lighted. Maybe Jim can give some insight here. But if Olliver based his observation on the position of the telegraph handles, it is possible that he may have mistaken AHEAD SLOW for AHEAD HALF. As you can see from the attached photo, AHEAD SLOW (green) is almost at the 3 o'clock position, and AHEAD HALF (yellow) is pointing a little beyond the 3 o'clock position. The actual telegraph handles are in STANDBY.
Sam Halpern
TITANICOLOGY
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David G. Brown
Member
Username: brown
Post Number: 2264
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 4:11 pm: |
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A well-made point by Sam regarding the telegraph handles. Olliver would have been observing in near darkness. It was policy not to illuminate the telegraphs to preserve night vision while at sea. Olliver could well have mis-read the position of the handles.
-- David G. Brown |
Richard Brown
Member
Username: rickyb
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 4:50 pm: |
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Yes, I was assuming that it was a mistake by Olliver (or even Scott who may have been some distance from the telegraph). I doubt there were two ahead orders.
The timing really depends on how long the lights were out for, and thus how long we can allow between Hendrickson leaving and Olliver arriving in the engine room. It is possible it was after Olliver talked to the carpenter, but that would depend on how long it takes to get to the engine room. Here is some testimony:
Senator BURTON.
Did you hear him report anything to the captain?
Mr. OLLIVER.
No, sir; I did not wait for an answer. As soon as I got on the bridge, I had another message.
Senator BURTON.
What was the other message?
Mr. OLLIVER.
A message to take to the chief engineer.
So he could not have stood on the bridge for more than a few moments. Would it take him 2 mins (and this is the lower estimate for how long the engines ran ahead for) to get from there to the engine room?
As for the time period the engines ran ahead for, Dillon states the engines ran ahead for 2 mins, Scott claims 10 mins. Scott said there was 10-15 mins between stop and ahead (which fits with my timeline, as I think 10mins for Barrett is far to late: more likely 5mins). However, it is hard to know who is better at judging times. Dillon also has the engines running in reverse, which seems odd as most people (except Boxhall) state the engines just stopped (although the point was not really pressed, so it is possible these people just did not mention it).
Would running the engines ahead help to get rid of excess steam (as an alternative idea to those presented already)?
Oh, and how did the carpenter take a draft on E deck? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 26716
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 2:23 am: |
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>>Would running the engines ahead help to get rid of excess steam <<
Uhhhh...yes...but not anywhere near as quickly as could be done by blowing it off. However, moving a ship with a busted nose isn't tops on the list of the brightest moves in the world (It tends to speed up flooding and aggravate damage.) Besides which, if you intend to move the ship, you hold off on blowing off any steam.
>>Oh, and how did the carpenter take a draft on E deck?<<
I don't think anybody bothered to take notice. By the time Boxhall found the man, he was already sounding the ship. By midnight, they had enough information to know what the ship's fate would be. Whether or not the carpenter stopped at that point or continued on for a time is lost to history.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Charles B. Weeks Jr.
Member
Username: charles_weeks
Post Number: 251
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 7:50 pm: |
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Richard:
The carpenter wasn't taking the draft, rather he was taking soundings of the bilges, to see if they had water in them. Drafts are external measurements of how deep the hull sits in the water, the numbers painted on the bow and stern show this. Soundings are internal measurements of the depth of water in the bilges. In Titanic's case the increasing depth of water in the bilges was leading to an increased draft forward.
Regards, Charlie Weeks |
Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 2463
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 2:55 am: |
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Hi Charlie.
I think Richard was asking what the procedure was to sound the bilges from E deck. I believe they had pipes that can be accessed from E deck which went all the way to ship's bottom so the carpenter can do that from that deck, which was the bulkhead deck. You might be able to explain this better.
Sam Halpern
TITANICOLOGY
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 26729
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 4:17 am: |
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>>I believe they had pipes that can be accessed from E deck which went all the way to ship's bottom so the carpenter can do that from that deck, which was the bulkhead deck. <<
The smart money is that you're right Sam. Sounding tubes have been around for a long time. On a number of ships on which I served, they were closed off with a cap which could be unscrewed with a T-wrench, after that, a tape or line with a weight on the end is sent down to get the measure of how much water was in the tanks.
Titanic's carpenter may not have even had to do that much. All you had to do was look down into a space through the hatch/ladderwell. If you saw water in there, you knew you had a problem!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Charles B. Weeks Jr.
Member
Username: charles_weeks
Post Number: 252
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 10:13 pm: |
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Sam:
I would agree, he was using the sounding tubes which ran from E-Deck down to the Bilge Wells. He would lower a brass rod on a line down till it hit bottom then bring it up. The rod was graduated in inches and usually covered in chalk. The height to which the chalk was washed of, told you how deep the bilge water was. E-Deck would have been a very logical place to have the tops of the sounding tubes, easy access the length of the ship.
Regards,
Charlie |
Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 2466
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 1:06 am: |
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Thanks Capt. Weeks and Michael. I just couldn't remember what those sounding tubes were called. It also explains why Olliver found the carpenter down on E deck already involved in doing that. The one issue that someone, I think it was Capt. Erik Wood, had raised is why did Capt. Smith first ask Olliver to find the carpenter, and later (when Boxhall returned from his first inspection forward) Smith also asked Boxhall to also find the carpenter to sound the ship?
Sam Halpern
TITANICOLOGY
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 26753
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 4:09 am: |
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Captain Smith may simply have spaced things out after he got the information. I have moments like that.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 2468
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 4:23 pm: |
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Something to speculate upon I suppose. Although what we know comes from Olliver, Hichens and Boxhall, it could be that they left off some little details. Olliver said he was told to find the carpenter and tell him to sound the ship, and that he found him on E deck forward somewhere doing it. Maybe Smith then told Boxhall to find the carpenter to get a report as to what he found so far? I bet Olliver came back to the bridge before Boxhall did at first. Smith would have known that they ship suffered some damage despite Boxhall saying he didn't see any in the passenger areas he looked at because the ship took on a small list to starboard very soon after the collision, at least according Hichens.
Sam Halpern
TITANICOLOGY
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