| Author |
Message |
    
T. Eric Brown
Member
Username: jack_phillips_lives
Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 6:43 am: | 
|
>>the third funnel not 100% sure if it fell after the break up<<
Does it matter? The third funnel would have been underwater about thirty seconds after the break up, given the now accepted angle of the ship at break up (between 30-50 degrees, not 70 as originally reported).
"What do you see?"-Sixth Officer James Moody
|
quincy williams
Member
Username: quin59
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 2:49 pm: |
|
Matt: my great grandfather Charles Duane Williams was killed by a falling funnel. My grandfather in his memoirs does not state which funnel. Since my grandfather states they were on the starboard side of the ship, and visited the bridge and Capt Smith but left the bridge just prior to the first dip of the bow and the resulting wave. I always assumed it was Funnel No.1 which crushed my great grandfather. Now it may not be, if Funnel 1 fell to port and they were on the starboard side. I assume my grandfather has the correct side of the ship since Collapsable A was in the process of being launched on that side and he eventually found his way to Boat A in the water? It is known that the Funnel 2 crushed people as well? If so then it must be Funnel 2 that killed my great grandfather. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12508
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 4:25 am: |
|
>>Now it may not be, if Funnel 1 fell to port and they were on the starboard side.<<
Interesting "IF" here. Did anybody in sworn testimony actually speak to where that funnel fell? Lights ended up in collapsible B and that one was washed off to port. I seem to recall that he barely missed being clobbered by the funnel.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 2414
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 8:48 am: |
|
According to Lightoller, the last two collapsibles were carried by eddying or whatever to opposite sides of the ship after they had floated off. When he reached collapsible B it was on the starboard side of Titanic, and that's where it was positioned when the forward funnell fell and almost struck it. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 2415
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
|
For reference, here are the relevant passages from Lightoller's memoirs (see also his testimonies at both Inquiries):
"I eventually came to the surface once again, this time alongside that last Engleheart boat which Hemming and I had launched from on top of the officers' quarters on the opposite side - for I was now on the starboard side, near the forward funnel."
"The terrific strain of bringing the after end of that huge hull clear out of the water, caused the expansion joint abaft No 1 funnel to open up. (These expansion joints were found necessary in big ships to allow the ship to 'work' in a seaway). The fact that the two wire stays to this funnel, on the after part led over and abaft the expansion joint, threw on them an extraordinary strain, eventually carrying away the port wire guy, to be followed almost immediately by the starboard one. Instantly the port one parted, the funnel started to fall, but the fact that the starboard one held a moment or two longer, gave this huge structure a pull over to that side of the ship, causing it to fall, with its scores of tons, right amongst the struggling mass of humanity already in the water. It struck the water between the Engleheart and the ship, actually missing me by inches."
. |
quincy williams
Member
Username: quin59
Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 2:52 pm: |
|
So there are no survivors accounts of seeing the second funnel fall on people in the water or in the area of the starboard bridge wing?
How certain boats managed to show up on the opposite side of the ship from whence they were launched could be explained in another statement my grandfather said. He said just before the Titanic went down, the stern while rising high into the sky (so much so he could clearly see the propellers outlined against the sky) at the same time rotated around so the ship was pointed towards England. Were there any other accounts mentioning this rotation? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12517
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
|
>>So there are no survivors accounts of seeing the second funnel fall on people in the water or in the area of the starboard bridge wing? <<
Not as far as I know. In any event the second funnel is far enough back that it's extremely difficult to see how it could fall over and do the kind of damage to the starboard bride wing that we know occured. Funnel two would almost certainly have to slide down in that direction and that would change the nature and extent of the damage. You wouldn't likely see any of the davits surviving that would be in the way and yet there are davits there that survive.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
quincy williams
Member
Username: quin59
Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
|
Good point Michael in regards to the starboard davit. Then if they were indeed on the starboard side, the initial bow plunge wave must have taken or washed my great grandfather towards the port side. My grandfather never mentions his father being in the water when the funnel collapsed on top of him. And it just barely missed hitting him.
Thanks for everyones input on this. |
Samuel Halpern
Member
Username: cmdrsam
Post Number: 663
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
|
Bob: Were the passages you quoted from Lightoller's book "Titanic and Other Ships"?
There are no Unsinkable Theories.
Sam Halpern
40° 23' 50'' N, 74° 13' 55'' W.
|
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 2416
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
|
That's right, Sam. His testimonies also leave no doubt that he, boat B and the funnel were all in close proximity in the water on the starboard side; eg in the US Inquiry he stated that he eventually surfaced:
"Alongside of that upturned boat that had been launched on the other side."
"Where had you gone at that time? Had you gone around the ship?"
"No, sir; the boat had come around."
He offered no suggestions in his testimonies of why the first funnel had fallen, and when questioned at the UK Inquiry about the second funnel his answers make it clear that he heard or saw nothing to suggest it had fallen, and was of the opinion that it had become immersed as the ship went under. But of course he was also adamant that the ship went down in one piece!
. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 2417
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
|
Quincy, the Washington Times printed this as a quotation back in 1912:
"We stood on the deck watching the lifeboats of the Titanic being filled and lowered into the water," said Williams. "The water was almost up to our waists and the ship was about at her last. Suddenly one of the great funnels fell. I sprang, endeavoring to pull my father with me. The funnel was swept overboard and my father's body went with it."
If that's accurate, then he certainly wasn't in the water at the time the funnel came down.
. |
quincy williams
Member
Username: quin59
Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 8:45 pm: |
|
Bob. Thanks for relaying that quote by my grandfather. I have read a few contemporary quotes by him with some interesting bits he never mentions in his memoirs. At some point I am planning to collect these 1912 quotes to make an addendum to his memoirs. Maybe for the 100th anniversary. Not sure if it will be something worth publishing...
I will have to go back and read my grandfathers account as I may be wrong that they were on the starboard side. Its been awhile since I have read it.
There are gaps in my grandfathers account. It was written in the early 60s based on notes he wrote while aboard Carpathia. I have read in one book (letter to Gracie maybe?)that he stated not long after the sinking he saw the ship break in two but he never mentions this in his memoirs.
Bob have you read any mention of the ship rotating 180 degrees just before sinking. Could this be the stern section twisting while being carried down by the bow section after splitting in half? |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 2418
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 10:57 pm: |
|
Regarding the 'rotation' of the stern section, here's an abbreviated version of Jack Thayer's account of events as seen from his viewpoint in the water, forward and to starboard:
"Long and I had been standing by the starboard rail, about abreast of the second funnel ... I sat on the rail. I faced out, and with a push of my arms and hands, jumped into the water as far out from the ship as I could ... The ship was in front of me, forty yards away ... The water was over the base of the first funnel. The mass of people on board were surging back, always back towards the floating stern ... Suddenly the whole superstructure of the ship appeared to split, well forward to midship, and bow or buckle upwards. The second funnel ... seemed to be lifted off, emitting a cloud of sparks. It looked as if it would fall on top of me. It missed me by twenty or thirty feet. The suction of it drew me down and down, struggling and swimming, practically spent. As I finally came to the surface I put my hand over my head, in order to push away any obstruction. My hand came against something smooth and firm with rounded shape. I looked up, and realized that it was the cork fender of one of the collapsible lifeboats, which was floating in the water bottom side up ... Sitting on my haunches and holding on for dear life, I was again facing the Titanic
There was the gigantic mass, about fifty or sixty yards away. The forward motion had stopped. She was pivoting on a point just abaft of midship. Her stern was gradually rising into the air, seemingly in no hurry, just slowly and deliberately. We could see groups of the almost fifteen hundred people still aboard, clinging in clusters or bunches, like swarming bees; only to fall in masses, pairs or singly, as the great after part of the ship, two hundred and fifty feet of it, rose into the sky, till it reached a sixty-five or seventy degree angle. Here it seemed to pause, and just hung, for what felt like minutes. Gradually she turned her deck away from us, as though to hide from our sight the awful spectacle. Then, with the deadened noise of the bursting of her last few gallant bulkheads, she slid quietly away from us into the sea."
Compare that with The testimony of the Chief Baker, Charles Joughin, who remained on board the stern section right to the end. He described not a rotation in the sense of a change of heading, but rather a great increase in the list to port, sufficient to throw hundreds of people on the well deck off their feet. At that point he was able to maintain his footing only by holding onto the starboard rail and climbing over it to stand on the side of the ship. The greatly increased list to port would of course account for Thayer's observation that the stern "turned her deck away from us".
Quincy, you will be particularly interested in this comment from Thayer: "I afterwards heard from my friend, Richard Norris Williams, that his Father and mine were standing in a group consisting of Mr George D. Widener and his son Harry, together with some others. They were close in under the second funnel, which was very near to where Long and I were". That confirms that your Grandfather was on the starboard side. Thayer's account of the falling second funnel is more of a puzzle. According to Lightoller, it was only the first funnel that came down on the starboard side.
. |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 177
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
|
Dear Mr. Williams
I came across a brief interview with your grandfather. it has a small picture as well. This is from the 50th anniversary.
"I jumped. My arms and legs began to freeze. I made for the wreckage of a smashed lifeboat and hung on- I don't know how- for nine hours till rescue came. When I think about it now, and tell it, I wonder if it all really happened."
Best wishes
Mike Poirier
" God will get you for that Walter! "
|
steven p greiner
Member
Username: steve_g_in_sd
Post Number: 45
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 1, 2005 - 6:47 am: |
|
well, we can be pretty sure about one thing...
when the two sections came to rest on the bottom, I seriously doubt ANY funnels were still attached |
colin lindsly
Member
Username: newark
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 1, 2005 - 9:53 am: |
|
There was another thing we can be sure of - the Titanic ripped herself apart at the surface and the funnels being attached by gravity and supported in place by guide wires were jettisoned I think very likely at the surface.
In my mind's eye, I can see what Thayer described. It must have been a very frightening sight.
If the 1st funnel falls to the port, could there have been a list to port? And if the 2nd funnel falls to the starboard, could there have been a list to starboard?
And, would the funnels still be attached by their guide wires to the ship as she plunged to the bottom as shown in the recent documentary? |
quincy williams
Member
Username: quin59
Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 1, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
|
Michael: thanks for quoting that article about my grandfather. A keeper for my file.
Bob: interesting what Thayer and Lightoller said. I will have to read his account again as I do have the copy he gave to my grandfather. WEll at least we can confirm that my grandfather and his father were on the Starboard side. And now closer to the base of the second funnel than I thought. If indeed the first funnel fell to port then it must have been the second funnel. But Lightoller's account negates Thayers, or visa versa. The mystery continues.
Thanks to all for piping in on this subject. |
Andrew McNeal
Member
Username: goatman88
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
|
I believe all 4 funnels fell at some point before the ship hit bottom. The first 2 I know fell before she completely sank, the 3rd one broke when the ship split in half. the 4th funnel may have fallen off underwater or when the ship hit the bottom. |
Bill Wormstedt
Member
Username: wormstedt
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 4:01 am: |
|
Obviously the funnels fell off before the ship hit bottom. We have testimony that #1 and possible #2 fell off before the ship split. #3 had to collapse when the section of the ship under it broke apart, either at or just below the surface. We have an account (Dillon, I think) that #4 tipped back toward the stern, before it went under.
Bill
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page
