| Author |
Message |
    
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 30
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 12:46 am: | 
|
Hello out there.
I've been curious about something. As we all know, it was said by Cameron, with very good evidence to back him up, that the Grand Staircase was torn from it's foundations during the violent flooding, and very likely floated out of the ship. i.e. witness accounts, people supposedly floating on it, movie set, etc.
I can see that happening to the A-Deck Grand Staircase, and maybe even B deck, but what about the C, and D deck staircases? They went down pretty gently. Their staircases were't subjected to that strong of a "blow". So what happened to them? And their rought iron?
Did the entire 5-6 flights all come out and float through the dome? The structure in that area doesn't look like that would be the case. But if not, then what else could have happened to them to where there's absolutely NOTHING left of any hint of a staircase in the actual wreck.
This may have come as a stupid question to some, and a moot point since the staircase IS gone, but I'm really puzzled on this one and rather curious as to what some of the architects and engineers on this site might have to suggest.
Thanks everybody!
Jeff. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12535
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 3:48 am: |
|
I don't think that the Grand Staircase came out in one piece. The sinking may have looked sedate from the outside but you can bet it was anything but sedate from the inside. The hydrodynmaic forces at work were enormous. Enough in my opinion to tear the structure of the Grand Staircase to shreds. It's not much of a stretch to see how those pieces would have been ejected in chunks small and large.
To borrow an analogy offered up by Parks Stephenson, think of this area as the world's largest Cuisinart blender. It's not hard to figure out the rest.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
George Heiss
Member
Username: jukingeo
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 4:13 am: |
|
Hello Jeff, Funny you should bring this up. I was thinking about the same thing when I just saw the Discovery channel special, "The Last Mysteries of the Titanic". It is amazing that even though surrounding wood where the staircase was is still present and intact, how come the staircase itself is totally gone. So I initially thought as you said, that the staircase broke loose and perhaps floated through the dome on the way down, BUT when James Cameron was manuevering one of the small robot cameras down to go towards the remains of the Turkish Bath, the wrought iron framework of the dome is actually laying on the bottom. So then the staircase couldn't have floated through the dome...it would have taken the iron framework with it. I then was thinking that perhaps the staircase did break loose and move aft, smashing through the lounge walls and into the cabin walls, perhaps smashing itself way down to the split section of the ship. But as you pointed out, the water was not gushing in below B deck and theorecially the staircase should still be present on the lower decks. The fact that the wrought iron from the dome rests at the base where the staircase starts, suggests that the entire starcase ripped loose prior to the dome collapsing entirely and coming to rest on the bottom. But then is the question, where did it go? There is not a trace of it. And being that there is wood intact in the surrounding area so I don't think it was completely eaten away. Also, if it was, then the iron work would have remained and would be present piled up on the floor near the dome...but there is no evidence of that either. So then, the only viable solution that I can think of was when the bow began it's final plunge that the force of the current of the water running through the structure could have sheered the entire staircase from its mountings, smashed it against the cabin walls and other structures and either it is in many pieces near the break of the ship or in fact ejected from the ship entirely. |
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 8:43 am: |
|
George, you bring up a good point as far as giant pieces smashing their way aft through the ship until finally breaking out of the split end of the ship. I'm no structural engineer, but in my imagination I could see that being very possible.
I also like what Michael said. That makes a heck of a lot of sense too. By the force of water and currents working their way though, they could have tugged and pulled and literally twisted the staircase to bits. And then the pieces float out the dome opening or float to other areas of the ship.
I would think that if the staircase was smashed and mangled like that on each floor, that some of that wrought iron would have come loose from the wood fittings, and floated down to the bottom floor rather quickly due to the iron factor. Like I say, I'm no engineer or architect, I'm pretty much going on blind imagination and knowing what happens to wood and metal in water. Not much to tell there. 
I'm just really interested in hearing people's different ideas on what might have happened. Since we will really never know for sure. Michael and George thank you for your insight. I hope to talk more on this subject as it is one of very much interest to me.
Am I correct in understanding that the clock "Honor And Glory" actually remained intact until (maybe) a few years before Titanic was found? Because I remember in Ballard's 'Secrets Of The Titanic' when they sent Jason down there they aimed it right at where the clock would have been and there was an imprint of a large rectangular "mounting" that looked to have recently fallen from it's place. Would this have been the clock? They say it was on the VHS, but documentaries have claimed all kinds of stuff that turned out not to be true in the end. *shrug*. Anyway, thanks again you guys and I hope to hear more about your thoughts on this subject. Have a great one!
Jeff. |
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 32
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 8:47 am: |
|
I just have to add, there was A LOT of staircase there to have all been washed out of the dome entirely. It's still just so hard to believe that there's just NO evidence of the actual staircase having ever been there. Really just the dome. I guess it's just hard to accept, in a way, that something so gorgeous is totally lost forever. Not even it's ruins are there to see. I know it's been a known fact for years that the staircase is gone, but that really was my favorite part of the ship and just knowing the work it took to build it just all washed away in 2 hours. Really in the staircase's case, maybe 20 minutes to destroy once the sinking increased to that pint? A real shame. |
Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 1224
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 2:29 pm: |
|
We here in the UK haven't seen The Last Mysteries of the Titanic. Is it true that fragments of the forward dome were found at the base of the forward grand staircase's foundation?
Cheers
Paul
--
http://www.paullee.com |
Monica Hall
Moderator
Username: monica
Post Number: 1513
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
|
I think we get it this coming weekend, or the next, on Discovery. Did you get my email? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12541
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 4:13 pm: |
|
>>Am I correct in understanding that the clock "Honor And Glory" actually remained intact until (maybe) a few years before Titanic was found?<<
Since were speaking to a time befor direct observations were a possibility, there's really no way to know. Strange things can happen during sinkings. We have examples of incredible destruction from the staircase being flushed out in chunks up to and including the failure of the hull girder (The break up) and yet you can still go into the Strauss's stateroom and see that clock on the fireplace mantle undisturbed.
Go figure.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 36
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
|
>>Is it true that fragments of the forward dome were found at the base of the forward grand staircase's foundation?<<
I believe so. Mike, Didn't Cameron actually point out pieces? Or just record what LOOKED like pieces of the dome? But from what I saw and understand, pieces of the dome are definitely down there.
By the way I agree with you Mike on the Clock in the Strauss' room. What are the odds that something like that would stay RIGHT there. It's pretty uncanny.
And like Cameron says, it's really a blessing that the staircase did fall apart and float away so they have that pretty easy access into the interior of the ship. Has Cameron pretty much explored everything you can get to from the Grand Staircase? All of the main passenger areas that are left?
What ended up being the verdict on the swimming pool? That's about the only interior that Cameron hasn't shown us. Wish the lounge hadn't been smashed by the break up. Most unfortunate. Thanks all and have a great day!
Jeff. |
George Heiss
Member
Username: jukingeo
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 5:51 am: |
|
Hello again. Oh, Gee, this topic is running away with itself--fun!
Ok, Jeff, I would agree with Mike's "LaMachine" Theory and the entire staircase could have been smashed totally apart...BUT I would believe that even in this case, SOMETHING would be left behind on the bottom. The wood could have been obliterated, yes, but what about all the iron? Something would be left...you agree? Yet all that is laying there is the framework for the dome. THAT is what makes this very puzzling. The staircase was made out of iron too. So I think there is a greater force at play here. The stairway was carried away from its mountings. I just thought of something that could bring light to the matter and it has to do with those answering my questions about what happened to Jim Cameron's staircase when filming the movie.
Ok, I got a good look at the backs of the staircases from a computer rendering of the Staircase. The backs of the stairs were covered with an ornate panel. So then behind each step there would be a triangular shaped cavity filled with air. So considering the number of steps, and there were quite a few, that would make a rather bouyant and floatable device now wouldn't it? So even though the water didn't rush in on the lower decks, it is entirely possible that the bouyancy alone could have ripped the staircase apart deck by deck as the water rose. Now the bow takes it's plunge downward and the bouyant stair case pieces which are now resting on the ceiling of each deck will want to try to float up again this would support my theory that most likely the staircase plowed through the cabins and other rooms on each deck until it amassed in a huge pile of mess where the break is. I honestly believe if that area of the break is searched carefully, I bet some pieces of the staircase would be there.
Oh, and Jeff, yes the shadow that is on the wall where the staircase used to be is where the clock was. But the clock has been gone since the Titanic was discovered. So no one will know when it disappeared. I would guess it was ripped off the wall right off the bat, otherwise it would probably be laying next to the iron framework for the dome.
Yes, it is hard to accept that the entire staircase disappeared without a trace. As you can tell it is one of my favorite areas of the ship as well. I was VERY disappointed to learn about that when I saw the initial footage of Ballard's explorations. But it has to be somewhere down there. Perhaps deeper exploration will reveal it's mysterious disappearance.
Jeff AND Paul. Yes, Cameron did point out that the crumpled ironwork at the base of where the staircase used to be is infact the framework of the dome.
Jeff, the Staircase had well openings in it's design...you could look down as it wrapped itself from deck to deck. I believe the opening would have been large enough to admit the 'bot cams. But I do agree that with the staircase not there, it definately made the job alot easier. I think it would be cool though if Cameron did try to explore the area of the Lounge (whatever is left of it). I wouldn't be surprised if our staircase is sitting in there .
Yes, I am curious about the condition of the swimming pool itself.
Geo |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12548
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 7:22 am: |
|
>>Mike, Didn't Cameron actually point out pieces?<<
He pointed out what he thought to be the framework from the dome. I thought it looked more like a foundation framework. Very functional in appearance rather then the more artistic appearance one would expect for the dome.
>>Has Cameron pretty much explored everything you can get to from the Grand Staircase? All of the main passenger areas that are left?<<
I think it would be fair to say he explored everything he could possibly get to in the time he had available to look around. There still remain signifigent portions of the ship that are unexplored and probably always will be.
>>BUT I would believe that even in this case, SOMETHING would be left behind on the bottom. The wood could have been obliterated, yes, but what about all the iron? Something would be left...you agree?<<
The utter lack of any evidence of such would tend to indicate otherwise. If it's not there, then it's not there. At best, we can only specualte as to why.
>>The staircase was made out of iron too.<<
That staircase was made out of heavy woods...oak if I recall correctly...and also heavy iron bulastrades. I don't think it would have gone anywhere without a lot of help. Apparantly, that "Help" was available.
One thing we need to keep in mind is that Cameron's staircase was a set and structurally very different from the way it would have been secured on an operational vessel. For all of that, their lowering the set into the water as they did was very sedate compared to the violence of a real world sinking. I don't know if the gaps and hollows would have made a difference in trapping a signifigent amount of air. All I can say with certainty is that whatever ripped the Grand Staircase up, it was beefy enough that I wouldn't want to be in the way when it was doing it's work!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 42
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
|
Oh okay Mike. Because I was somehow under the impression that Cameron actually built the staircase exactly the way they had done it in 1912, structurally speaking as well, based on historical plans. I guess that was more for look. Because I agree with you, and George...there were some pretty scary forces at work at that point ripping things to shreds. I guess I'm more curious about the wrought iron, and why it didn't detach from the wood as it broke apart. Oh also, you'll both probably know what I'm referring to, and Mike I think you made a reference to it in your last post...when they send the ROV down the what-would-be staircase, at the very bottom you see this, what looks like, wood structure with 3-4 beams in the middle of it, and this thing looks like it's the exact shape of the staircase with the curving outward on both sides. I'll have to watch my tape again, but I believe Cameron sent and ROV underneath all that to see what was down there, but found nothing but jagged mess, and a few dome pieces. I'm wondering what exactly that big wood "frame" is. It's very hard to positively identify something like that in a shipwreck 93 years old, I know. Still just strikes the curiosity. Thanks Mike and George! |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12552
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
|
>>Oh okay Mike. Because I was somehow under the impression that Cameron actually built the staircase exactly the way they had done it in 1912, structurally speaking as well, based on historical plans<<
Actually, he couldn't. It's not just the staircase but the way it's secured in place. A movie set just has to look good and hold up to some daily use long enough to complete the production. An actual operational ship is a very different matter. While the set and the real Grand Staircase loooked identical...and they were supposed to...they really weren't identical underneath.
In point of fact, the movie grand Staircase was actually a made a bit larger so it would look better on film.
>>but I believe Cameron sent and ROV underneath all that to see what was down there, but found nothing but jagged mess, and a few dome pieces.<<
Guess I'll have to do the same. I recall the foundation framework very clearly but didn't notice anything else down there which had even a vague resemblance to the dome.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
Bill Wormstedt
Member
Username: wormstedt
Post Number: 1051
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 5:08 pm: |
|
I'm with Mike. I don't recall anything down there other than the stair foundation itself.
Bill
|
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 8:08 pm: |
|
Oh so that's the stair foundation that we're always seeing down there. THanks for clearing that up guys. And maybe I dreamed it up, but I could have sworn on one of these past weekend DC docs, Cameron made it a point of checking to see what was under that framework. If I find it on my tape, I'll tell you guys which show it's on. Thanks for all your answers guys. I wasn't aware at all that the Grand Staircase for the movie was actually built a bit bigger for looks. THat's really neat. Thanks again guys! I must head back to work now. :-(
Jeff. |
George Heiss
Member
Username: jukingeo
Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 12:57 am: |
|
Hello Jeff, Mike
I heard that from someone else in another post that they swore the staircase was larger and more impressive than the original. I guess they were right then.
A far as the remains on the bottom of the actual ship. Well I would have to see the program again. Cameron did clearly state it was the dome framework, but the camera went by too quickly to really focus on it. I guess another look is warrented. Did you guys tape the program? |
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 49
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 1:26 am: |
|
George, I taped the program (actually all 3 LMOT's) lol. I seem to remember the staircase foundation investigation as being on the 1st showing of LMOT. I'll check tonight and let you guys know by tomorrow. |
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 52
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 3:08 am: |
|
Okay, it was in the 1-hour LMOT special. Cameron calls attention to an object and says it's from the dome. It's hard to make out and like everyone said, the cameras moving one way or another, but it looks almost like a...spider-web. I believe Cameron said that it was girders from the dome. There's no ornateness to it, it's just a squeezed together web of iron. Cameron says it's part of the dome though. I won't say one way or the other. I just wanted to show you guys what I was talking about. Parts of it look like it had to have come from the very "peak" of the dome. Or on the very-upper parts of it. The "girders" kind of curve in and come together towards the center as the dome would have. It's still hard, for me anyway, to make a dome out of this basically, pile of trash. Still neat to see though. And I trust Cameron as far as Titanic, if he says it's the dome, there's a pretty good chance that it is. Hopefully we'll find out for sure in future (sooner than later) expeditions!
Jeff. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12559
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 4:52 am: |
|
>>Did you guys tape the program?<<
Yes I did and they lingered in the staircase well long enough that you could make out the functional form of the foundation. Photos of this same area also appear in Ghosts of the Abyss (Film and book) and I also recall some detailed photos of this area in the GotA Outtakes articles that Ken Marschall wrote up for the THS Commutator.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
Kevin Perez
Member
Username: kperez90
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 5:53 am: |
|
It has been a while since I've watched or read anything Titanic related, but what EXACTLY caused that staircase to rip from its foundations any ways? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12563
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 5:58 am: |
|
>>but what EXACTLY caused that staircase to rip from its foundations any ways?<<
Nobody knows with 100% certaintly, but the hydrodynamic forces of all that water pouring in plus any related stresses on the hull as it plunged through the water column would be a good bet.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
Clifton Johnson
Member
Username: dragonmaster45
Post Number: 43
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 12:40 am: |
|
Along with what Michael said on a few posts above as well as the previous one, the hydrodynamic forces of the water column would surely support the extraction of the Grand Staircase. And the carved oak would be bouyant so with Park's blender theory on another thread, the thrashed oak would surge out of the dome opening with a maelstrom of fury. And the ironwork at the bottom of the staircase does look like a foundation of some sort. Although I do remember reading somewhere else about that ironwork being part of the structure that covered the dome. If I am wrong please feel free to point it out. And please dont ask me about the balustrades because your guess is as good as mine.
Have A Nice Day
Cliff Johnson |
George Heiss
Member
Username: jukingeo
Post Number: 43
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
|
I would have to see the program again, but perhaps when James Cameron pointed out the tangles mess of steel on the bottom and referred to it as the dome...maybe he meant the dome cover. But regardless, dome frame or dome cover, it is still on the bottom there and the staircase is gone. If the staircase completely went through a "La Machine" effect as Mike (and others) pointed out and ejected through the dome, then it more then likely would take the frame with it...Yet the dome (or dome cover) frame still sits on the bottom. I am really curious if they did more research in the area where the break is if they find the pieces of the staircase there. Or we may never know as it may be trapped beneath all the collapsed decking. It is definately an intriguing mystery.
Geo
An iceberg is like a giant zepoli...it flips over when one side is done .
|
Austin Long
Member
Username: titanicgeek2413
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 12:30 am: |
|
I have a question about the aft Grand Staircase. Has that even been looked at? I mean...it wasn't as well known but it did exist. I don't think it is very possible, nut if it wasn't destroyed in the sinking, it could be more intact than the forward staircase. Just a thought. |
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 69
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 12:54 am: |
|
Austin, I'm thinking something that kind of relates to what you just said. I agree, someone should at least check for the aft grand staircase or pieces of it, if they haven't already. You'd think someone has. Never know though.
Has anybody ever attempted to send an ROV down either of the 2nd Class staircases. The B and A deck exits still exist, so I wonder if the stairs might be underneath? Or at least another hole like the one we see in the Grand Staircase that will allow ROVs access to the interior of the stern. Like you say, just a thought. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12605
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 2:56 am: |
|
It might be helpful to take note of This Deckplan and This Model Built By Roy Mengot of what's left of the stern section. It doesn't take Jimmy Nuetron Boy Genius to figure out why nobody has made any attempt to get in there and see. The region where the Aft Grand Staircase was located is an obliterated mess. If anything remains of the staircase, my bet is that it's just about unrecognizable.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
Jeffrey Word
Member
Username: titanicguy
Post Number: 74
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 3:48 am: |
|
>>If anything remains of the staircase, my bet is that it's just about unrecognizable.<<
I'd agree 100%. It'd still be neat to see though.
>>It doesn't take Jimmy Nuetron Boy Genius to figure out why nobody has made any attempt to get in there and see<<
lol. It certainly doesn't. It'd be an EXTREMELY high risk, if not totally impossible. I just keep looking directly forward of the 2nd Class entrance on the boat deck, and keep thinking that they would squeeze a landing there and send an ROV in. But, that deck could collapse like wet paper right out from under them and send them falling into the bowels of the ship. Which would be a disaster. I see a couple of spaces where one could land the sub without having to worry about what's really around them as far as debris, but it doesn't look like the structure would hold up to it at all. I'm not sure how much one of those subs weighs. It still shocks me that the bow can tolerate subs landing without falling through. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12609
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
|
>>I'm not sure how much one of those subs weighs. It still shocks me that the bow can tolerate subs landing without falling through.<<
I understand these craft are just barely on the negetive side of the line of nuetral boyancy. That's why they take so long to decend 12,500 feet to the wreck. Because of this, they won't be putting a whole lot of weight down on any point of the structure where they decide to land. The trouble is that looks can be very decieving and like you said, the structure itself probably wouldn't hold up at all. I suspect it's all it can do to support the weight of an anorexic lobster right now, much less a submersible.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
George Heiss
Member
Username: jukingeo
Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 3:30 pm: |
|
Hello all,
Mike made everything clear by providing the links for both the deck plan and the model of the stern wreck. If you all look closely to the deck plan...the Aft grand staircase is right above the engine. The engine casing is right next to the staircase. More then likely it was smashed apart when the ship split. From what I gather, the morning after the sinking search parties did find pieces of the staircase floating around in the sea. More then likely these pieces were from the aft staircase. In addition, the fact that the aft dome was found in the debris field is more than enough to convince me that this area was totally shreaded and less would be found intact than of the forward staircase. But now there lies the mystery, that staircase just totally disappeared. **Shrugs**.
An iceberg is like a giant zepoli...it flips over when one side is done .
|
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12614
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 2:24 am: |
|
>>But now there lies the mystery, that staircase just totally disappeared. **Shrugs**.<<
More like splintered into some of the world's most expensive toothpicks. Being in the area of a ship that breaks up can be quite a health hazard! (The rest of the ship ain't much of an improvement either.)
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
|
