| Author |
Message |
    
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 12:57 pm: | 
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Hi everyone,
Fifth officer Lowe divided the passengers of boat 14 among the other lifeboats. (10,12, 04 and D.)
Of some passengers I know in which boat they ended.
For example. Mrs. Selena Cook and Mrs. Amelia Lemore ended up in lifeboat D. Miss Sarah Rebecca Compton was transferred to boat D. too. And Mrs. Minahan and Miss Minahan too.
Did anyone know in which boat some of the others where transferred? And where any passengers left in lifeboat 14?
Regards,
Hildo |
Peter Engberg-Klarström
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 3:53 pm: |
|
Dear Hildo, quite a few passengers claimed they stayed in boat No 14, e g Mrs and Miss Brown, the Collyers. Officer Lowe claimed he transferred all of them to other boats. He said he was left with eight or nine people, which, if this were true, means that about 40 people were transferred. Chief Steward Hardy in boat D said they received about ten, and I believe boats 4, 10 and 12 also received about ten each.
Best regards,
Peter |
Michael Findlay
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 4:13 pm: |
|
Hi Peter,
I know that Charlotte Collyer stated that she and her daughter remained in boat #14 and returned to the scene of the wreck with Lowe and the others. I have never understood what Lowe could have been thinking when he returned to the scene with an eight-year-old child without any knowledge of just what they might encounter. I thought for sure that all the children would have been taken out of the boat before the return. Edith Brown Haisman never mentioned returning to rescue the struggling swimmers, although her mother did so it is probable that they too remained.
Getting back to the question of passenger transfers, Eva Hart and her mother were transferred out of boat #14 as well, but they ended up in different boats. Some sources claim that Eva ended up in boat D but I have never seen any confirmation of this. I have no idea what boat Esther Hart was transferred to. Any ideas?
I know of about two or three other women who were also "shuffled" out of boat #14 but I would like to check their accounts again to confirm whether or not they mentioned what boat they eventually ended up in.
Regards,
Mike |
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 8:42 pm: |
|
Hi Peter and Mike,
So it's nearly sure that the Brown and Collyers were left in boat 14 after fifth officer Lowe had divided the passengers across the other four lifeboats.
The Harts were transferred to another boat. But separate ones. Mrs. Mellinger and her daughter were transferred to lifeboat 12. Am I right?
I have checked list of passengers of lifeboat 14, there were a lot of children in that boat, when it left Titanic. Eight or ten?
Regards,
Hildo |
Dave Gittins
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 9:06 pm: |
|
Correction. Charlotte Collyer did not say she stayed in Boat 14. A magazine did. There's a big difference, given the standard of journalism at the time. Lowe, in sworn evidence, said he got all the passengers out and that's good enough for me. |
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 9:40 pm: |
|
Hi Dave,
So the press has wrote something down, that's not true.
So we can say there were no passengers left in lifeboat 14 when Lowe went back to the place Titanic went down? But how do you explain the fact that he also said that eight or nine people stayed in boat 14? Where they all crew members? It's possible including Lowe there were nine crew members aboard boat 14. So I think that you can be right that all passengers were transferred to other boats. But there is a little possibility that some passengers were left in boat 14. I think not much two to four, but not many more.
Regards,
Hildo |
Dave Gittins
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 2:44 am: |
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I don't know where you get 8 or 9. Here's what Lowe said.
The Commissioner: How many men had you in the boat ?—I do not know; I should say
seven.
15873. Including yourself ?—Yes, I should say six and myself.
15874. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you row six oars back to the wreck ?—No, five oars, I think, and I
had a man on the look-out.
Earlier he said,
15864. Did you transfer any of your passengers ?—Yes. I transferred all of them.
15865. Among the other boats ?—Into the other four boats.
Can anybody seriously imagine Lowe taking a woman with a small child in tow along? The magazine story about Collyer belongs with Rigel the dog and the Luis Klein fairy tale. |
Craig Stringer
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 7:27 am: |
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Dear Hildo,
Hello! I will answer your email shortly, but to add to this message here - Nellie Wallcroft and Clear Cameron were transferred from number 14 to number 10. Both ladies recalled that number 10 had water in the bottom.
Regards
Craig |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 8:22 am: |
|
Dave -
Excellent point (and I have another sworn statement from Lowe in addition to his inquiry testimony stating clearly that he transferred all the passengers out).
Curiously, in Marjorie Collyer's accounts she makes it clear that she and her mother were not in the boat when it returned.
The problems with Collyer's newspaper account do not begin or end with the claim she returned with him to rescue survivors - have a look at the section where #14 rowed several miles to the Carpathia (with women at the oars, no less). I suspect it's a case of what Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain called 'connective tissue' when one of his Civil War articles was published with editorial changes and additions.
All the best,
~ Inger |
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 10:27 am: |
|
Dear Dave and Inger,
I think you both are right. About there were no passengers aboard lifeboat 14, when it return.
If he said that six or seven crew members were left in the boat, then he must transferred some crew members to other boats. But is this right? He transferred some crew members from other boats in his boat. He had 9 crew members in his boat. And it sounds odd that he first transferred some to other boats and then take some other crew members back from other boats.
But about that there were no passengers aboard lifeboat 14, when it returns, you have convinced me.
Regards,
Hildo |
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 10:29 am: |
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Dear Craig,
Thanks for the information of Miss Cameron and Miss Walcroft.
Regards,
Hildo |
Michael Findlay
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 1:53 pm: |
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Hi Dave,
I believe that we cannot say for sure just what happened in boat #14 regarding Lowe's return to the scene. I have always had a hard time believing that any women or children remained in the boat during the return to the wreck. As I mentioned earlier, I cannot imagine Lowe would subject an eight-year-old child to an encounter that would undoubtedly be dangerous. Many of the crew who remained with Lowe later claimed they had a fear of not knowing just what they would encounter when they arrived in the midst of the struggling and dying swimmers.
Charlotte Collyer did mention the incident regarding the Chinese sailor being hauled aboard, and Lowe's comments to the effect that there were others better worth saving than a 'Jap.' Of course, it can be argued that the reporter fabricated the story and therefore some of what Charlotte was describing was, like Inger correctly pointed out, pieced together by the editor or journalist.
It is difficult to say. While it is improbable that Charlotte, Marjorie and other women remained, there is a possibility. We cannot say for sure. After all, if the women did return with Lowe, I highly doubt Lowe would testify that he brought them with him to the scene. The next question to Lowe would be: "Why did you take such action?"
In my opinion, it's one of the many unanswered questions that will linger with the Titanic's legacy, though I personally doubt that any women were subjected to the recovery operation conducted by Lowe.
Any thoughts, Peter?
Mike Findlay |
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 8:36 pm: |
|
Hi everyone,
I had another look on the subject how many crew members were left after Lowe had transferred the passengers to other boats. He had including himself 8 crew members in his boat.
So I was wrong with my number of 9. I had counted Harold Phillimore as a crew member when it left Titanic, but he was one who was picked up from the water.
But I have a question about Mr. Charles Eugene Williams, a second class passenger in lifeboat 14. Lowe had him in his lifeboat for rowing. Was he transferred to another boat or was he allowed to stay in lifeboat 14? And does anyone know what his age was at that time?
Regards,
Hildo |
Lester Mitcham
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 10:24 pm: |
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Hi Hildo,
Interesting question about boat 14. A photograph taken of boat 14 as it approached the Carpathia shows a rather empty lifeboat. At the American Inquiry Evans said there were 8 or 9 men in boat when they went back. They picked up 4, one of whom died. Later they took one women and about 10 or 11 men from boat A. There were then about 25 in our boat, including the one who died.
This seems to exclude the idea of any women and children being in boat 14 when it went back.
Lester |
Phillip Gowan
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 3:12 am: |
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Hildo,
Charles Eugene Williams was born July 28, 1888 making him 23 years old at the time of the sinking.
Phil |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 1:18 pm: |
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Hallo, Hildo -
Crowe's testimony states that Williams volunteered and returned with #14 to attempt to pick up survivors (pg. 621 of the American Inquiry).
I agree, Mike, that it is not beyond the realms of possibility that women returned with Lowe to pick up survivors.
I find it rather unlikely, however, that Lowe would lie under oath on this point, as any of the crew or passengers in his little flotilla of boats could have contradicted him when called to give evidence. It's one thing to fib about something when there's only you and perhaps a couple of other witnesses, it's another when there are a few boatloads of people who could stand up and say 'oi! That isn't what happened!'. Lowe stood to gain nothing - I can't imagine the inquiries taking him to task if he had to return with passengers, given that it was an attempt at rescue under difficult circumstances. If the next question posed had been 'Why did you take such action?' the answer would have to be along the lines of 'I was there to save life' followed by an explanation of why he didn't transfer them all out. If he were going to leave anyone in #14 I don't think it would be a child.
There was another point that was potentially far more damaging to Lowe, and on which he could have very easily lied had he been so inclined. When asked at the English Inquiry point blank who had ordered him into a lifeboat he responded with absolute honesty that he had received no orders to take command of a boat. Lowe could so easily have lied at that point and said that any of the deceased senior officers had ordered him to take command of a lifeboat at the first opportunity. He was the most junior of the surviving officers, and his word would not have been questioned (as Boxhall's and Pitmans was not questioned). However, although he didn't volunteer the information, he responded with complete frankness when asked directly. If he was so open about a potentially far more damaging point when there would have been no witnesses to contradict him, why would we suppose he lied when there was a potential for anyone who went back in #14 to state to the inquiries that he was lying?
~ Inger |
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 10:24 pm: |
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Hi Lester, Inger and Phillip,
Thanks for the information about lifeboat 14.
So it's 100% sure no women or children were left in boat 14 when it returned.
So Lowe went back with at least 7 crew members and one male passengers. Charles E. Williams.
Thanks Inger for this information.
And Phillip, thank you for the information about the age of Charles E. Williams.
Regards,
Hildo |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 10:47 pm: |
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Hallo, Hildo -
There are few things about the Titanic it would be safe to say were 100% sure - Lowe not taking women and children back with him in his rescue attempt isn't one of them. I'll just go so far as to say I consider it unlikely :-)
All the best,
Inger |
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 10:57 pm: |
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Hello Inger,
So It's better to say it unlikely. So I will say insted of 100% sure, unlikly.
Regards,
Hildo |
Fiona Nitschke
| | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 10:27 am: |
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Hello all,
Hildo, you've had several responses on your questions regarding passengers being on #14 when Lowe returned to search for survivors. It's a bit late to be joining the party, but here's my 10c worth. 
There's the various conflicting stories from other survivors on whether or not all passengers were transferred to other lifeboats before #14's return. For what it's worth, I agree with Dave and Inger regarding Mrs Collyer's account - or rather, a journalist's account of Mrs Collyer's account  . Poor Mrs Collyer, singing for her supper… Charles Williams, the passenger who volunteered to stay and row, is the only passenger that can be directly accounted for in #14 going by primary sources.
But - my reason for adding to this thread is the evidence from the crew in #14. A while ago I put together a table on them relating to #14 'issues'. Lowe's account has been well covered by others (particularly Inger), but here's the information from the rest of #14's 'crew' relevant to your question:
AB Joseph Scarrott- 439. … Mr Lowe decided to transfer the passengers that we had, so many in each boat, and then make up the full crew; it did not matter whether it was sailors or anything, and make up the full crew… …The boats were made fast and the passengers were transferred, and we went away... (British BOT enquiry)
- …We divided the passengers of our boat amongst the other four, and then taking one man from each boat so as to make a crew we rowed away amongst the wreckage… (The Sphere, 1912, from Titanic Voices and also in Scarrott's ET biography)
AB Edward John Buley (transferred from #10 to #14)- …Officer Lowe came alongside, and he had his boat filled up, and he distributed them among the other boats, and he said to all the seamen in the boat to jump in his boat until he went back among the wreckage to see if there were any people that had lived… (US Senate enquiry)
- (Examined by Mr Butler Aspinall) 18102. We have seen [Lowe], and he has told us the story, and I think the result of his coming up was that he got his boat full. He put out a great many of his passengers into other boats and then went away with you in his boat, did he not? - Yes. (British BOT enquiry)
AB Frank Oliver Evans (transferred from #10 to #14)- Mr EVANS. No. 14 boat. He came over in No. 14 boat, and he says, "Are there any seamen there?" We said, "Yes, sir." He said, "All right; you will have to distribute these passengers among these boats. Tie them all together and come into my boat," he said, "to go over into the wreckage and pick up anyone that is alive there." So we got into his boat and went straight over toward the wreckage… Senator SMITH. When you went over toward the wreckage, how many people were in your boat? Mr EVANS. Eight or nine, sir. (US Senate enquiry)
Window Cleaner William Harder- Was not called on to give evidence at either enquiry.
- Source for being on #14: ET & AB Scarrott (comments on the 'window cleaner', BOT enquiry)
Leading Fireman Thomas Threlfall
- Was not called on to give evidence at either enquiry
- Source for being on #14: ET
Fireman Frederick Harris- Was not called on to give evidence at either enquiry
- Source for being on #14: ET
First Class Saloon Steward George Frederick Crowe- Senator BOURNE. Explain what you mean by when you transferred your people. Mr CROWE. The officers on one of the boats that was near to us told them to stand by, and he got, I think, four or maybe five boats together. We transferred so many people from one boat to the other boats; we distributed from here to there. ...Mr CROWE. The officer said we could take 80 people in all, but the ladies seemed to make a protest at his idea of going back again with these people in the boat... (US Senate enquiry)
Bath Steward Frank Herbert Morris- 5339. Did you put any of your passengers into any other lifeboat? - We put all our passengers in. 5340. Then did it leave your boat empty? - Yes. (British BOT enquiry)
- Morris, even though a steward, went with the rescue party rather than staying behind to 'look after the ladies'
Third Class Steward Alfred Pugh- Was not called on to give evidence at either enquiry
- Source for being on #14, ET
- No information on whether he was one of the stewards transferred with the passengers to 'look after the ladies'as per Buley's comments
Steward Morris specifically states that all our passengers were transferred to the other lifeboats. This is implicit in the statements of the others, particularly Scarrott:...transfer the passengers we had.... No one mentions any passenger bar Williams, the volunteer, remaining. So, I don't readily agree with the qualified statement that it was unlikely that any passengers remained, but would further qualify it as being highly unlikely.
Cheers,
Fiona
(who would be interested in more information on Mrs Brown's account if anyone could oblige. The Haisman biography has remarkably little information on this aspect.) |
Hildo Thiel
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 8:46 am: |
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Hi Fiona,
Thanks for the information. So we can say that it is highly unlikely that there were other passengers left in the boat, than Mr. Williams.
Regards,
Hildo |
George Behe
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 10:50 am: |
|
Inger wrote:
>I find it rather unlikely, however, that Lowe >would lie under oath on this point, as any of the >crew
>or passengers in his little flotilla of boats >could have contradicted him when called to give
>evidence.
Hi, Inger!
Lowe didn't worry about contradictory testimony when he lied about boat #14 shuttling other lifeboats away from the Titanic's side. (The *importance* of this false testimony is beside the point -- the fact remains that Lowe lied for no apparent reason.)
All my best,
George |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 8:49 pm: |
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G'day, Fi -
Thanks for that *excellent* overview of the crew testimony on #14. I'll sit down and do that data trawl we discussed as soon as I can (looking a bit unlikely I'll get it done before I leave on Friday, though - the place is chaos, and Moni is leaving me little notes gently suggesting that books belong on shelves, not in a big nest around a desk with their accompanying notebooks, scrawled bits of paper, copies, photos etc).
George, I have a source on this you are going to love :-) Lowe's sworn affidavit, when read with his inquiry comments and the testimony of the crewmen, means his comments make a good deal more sense. I look forward to discussing this with you post-publication, as there's some other good stuff in there that would probably interest you (including comments on the 'Mystery Ship').
All the best,
Inger |
Manuel Reiprich
Member
Username: manuel
Post Number: 72
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 12:23 pm: |
|
Hello all,
i have a general question about boats 10, 12, 14 and D:
When did Lowe start to collect his accumulation of boats at the port side? Immediately after he leaved the ship in 14 and covered a distance to the ship?
How did he, in the dark night, without a light on board of his boat, communicate with the other boats in order to "collect" them?
D was the latest boat he "captured", but what was the first?
Best regards
Manuel |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3358
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 11:23 am: |
|
Hallo Manuel - I'll try to pull together some specific cites for you on the movement of the boats Lowe gathered together (I'm wrestling an upper respiratory tract infection at the moment that has left me *cough* disinclined to go through sources). There are variations in the accounts, however.
Clench, in Boat 12, noted in his British Inquiry testimony that the order to stay with Boat 14 came before they were lowered from the deck:
quote:Mr. CLENCH. No, sir; an able seaman. We had instructions when we went down that we were to keep our eye on No. 14 boat, where Mr. Lowe, the fifth officer, was, and keep all together as much as we could, so that we would not get drifted away from one another.
Clench, however, has Lowe arriving at Boat 12 after the ship sank:
quote:Mr. CLENCH. We was rowing up there, and up come the officer, after the ship was gone down, come up with us with his boat, and transferred some of his people he had in his boat into two boats of ours; I could not say the number of the other boats, but he transferred his people into ours so that he would have a clear boat to go around to look for the people who were floating in the water.
This possibly fits in with Sarah Compton's suggestion that Lowe was loathe to row far from the sinking ship, and that he only did so in response to pleas from the passengers.
Poindexter, also in 12, gives a similar account, which has Lowe there for only 'a few minutes':
quote:3040. What answer did you get? - I heard somebody call out, and they came up to us - another lifeboat.
3041. Were they showing you a light from that other boat? - No.
3042. Do you know the number of that lifeboat? - No.
3043. Do you know who was in charge of it? - No.
3044. Was it an Officer or a seaman? - A seaman.
3045. Do you know the name of the man in charge? - I think it was Foley, a storekeeper.
3046. Did anything pass between you and that boat with regard to changing passengers? - No.
3047. (The Commissioner.) What did you hail it for? - To tie up, to keep together.
3048. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) Did you tie up and keep together? - Yes.
3049. What happened next? - We saw another boat in charge of Officer Lowe.
3050. Did that boat come to you, or did you go to it? - He came to me.
3051. When he came to you, what happened? - He discharged some of his passengers into my boat and some into the other boat that was tied up astern of me.
3052. How many passengers did he put into your boat? - About a dozen.
3053. Did he remain with you then, or go away? - A few minutes.
3054. And at the end of the few minutes what did he do? - He took the men crew, what he had already had, and went and searched.
Poindexter is confusing on several points, however - in addition to his timing of 'several minutes', he has another boat joining the flotilla after Lowe left, and believed that it was Boat 14. Buley and Morris gave similar accounts of Lowe arriving after the boats were already loosely in together, then organising them and arranging for the transfer of passengers.
Crowe says Lowe "got, I think, four or maybe five boats together", but does not indicate how he did this, or in what order, or where the boats were in proximity to each other.
Scarrott, in Boat 14, had them arriving to find the other boats about 150 yards from the ship, where Lowe told them they were under his command:
quote:407. Then did she lie there? - She lay there with the remainder of the other boats - with the four other boats that we saw when we got clear of the ship.
408. Did you see four other boats there? - Yes.
409. Did you speak them? - Yes.
410. And was anything done with the other boats? - Mr. Lowe asked them who was in charge of the boats, what Officers were there, and we got a reply from each boat individually to say they had no Officer in the boat. He said: "All right consider the whole of you are under my orders; remain with me," and when the ship sank, when there was nothing left of her above the water, he waited, I suppose, about a couple of minutes, not more, and ordered all our boats to row where we last saw the ship to see if we could pick up anybody.
Scarrott, again, is confusing. In both this and his account in the Sphere, he had Lowe order the return of all the boats, very shortly after the sinking, and then pulling away again where he tied them up and affected the transfer. There is little evidence to support this, although Poindexter does mention Boat 12 returning shortly after the sinking but failing to find anyone. Scarrott said one of the other boats returning did manage to pick up some people - perhaps he is thinking of Boat 4, but there is no evidence that it was Lowe who ordered Boat 4 to pick up survivors.
Scarrott goes on to describe how:
quote:439. Now, after seeing there was no chance of rescuing passengers, what did you do; did you remain there or did you sail away in any direction, or row, or what? - Mr. Lowe ordered four of the boats to tie together by the painters. He told the men that were in charge of them, the seamen there, what the object was. He said, "If you are tied together and keep all together, if there is any passing steamer they will see a large object like that on the water quicker than they would a small one." During the time that was going on - we intended to make fast ourselves, of course, with the four - we heard cries coming from another direction. Mr. Lowe decided to transfer the passengers that we had, so many in each boat, and then make up the full crew; it did not matter whether it was sailors or anything, and make up the full crew and go in the direction of those cries and see if we could save anybody else. The boats were made fast and the passengers were transferred, and we went away and went among the wreckage. When we got to where the cries were we were amongst hundreds, I should say, of dead bodies floating in lifebelts.
Lowe, in all four accounts he gave of the sinking, suggested that he actively rounded up the boats, and even escorted them to the other lifeboats.
Mrs Ryerson gives an indication of how Lowe used both whistle and voice to pull the flotilla together:
quote:After the Titanic sank we saw no lights, and no one seemed to know what direction to take. Lowe, the officer in charge of the boat, had called out earlier for all to tie together, so we now heard his whistle, and as soon as we could make out the other boats in the dark, five of us were tied together.
Nellie Walcroft wrote in a letter dated 29 April 1912 that Lowe "got about four boats together and distributed his passengers amongst them" - the context that assembling the boats took place after the Titanic went down. Clear Cameron on 21 April 1912 wrote that "Our Officer seemed to be the only one among 7 boats, he kept us together, in fact he tied us together".
Rene Harris gave an interview for the New York Evening Journal in which she stated:
quote:We had been drifting about an hour when out of the darkness came a voice, strong, ringing, youthful. 'Anybody there?' The quartermaster answered. 'All right, quartermaster,' came the voice, "how many have you aboard?' 'Nineteen.' 'How many can you hold?' 'Thirty.' 'All right, tie up to me.'
A boat swung round in front of us and we tied fast. We started off with new strength. Now and then the young, strong voice rang back at us, 'Everybody happy?' 'You're tied fast. Don't worry.' 'Morning's coming.' At little intervals the voice would call, 'Any boats around? Tie up to me.'
In a short while the young voice of the invisible commander was guiding a flotilla of open boats. Hertofore we had been drifting about, the people in every boat trying to keep the others away from it. Now there was union.
There is, of course, rather more evidence from these boats, but this is a bit of an overview.
As I reconstruct it, I believe there was a general idea for the aft portside boats to stay together as they were lowered, at least 14 and 12 and possibly others. However, once they reached the water, Boats 10 and 12 pulled away and remained in proximity, while Lowe hestitated over rowing far from the ship. Eventually he joined 10 and 12 and added 4 and D to the little group. He used his voice and officers whistle to summons the other boats. |
Manuel Reiprich
Member
Username: manuel
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 12:54 pm: |
|
Inger, thanks a lot for this detailed information.
Best regards
Manuel |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3374
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 10:30 pm: |
|
No worries, Manuel. It was by no means an exhaustive list of source re. Lowe's flotilla of boats, but a bit of an overview. At some future time, when I can incorporate his two additional written statements as well as his testimony at the inquiries, it would be interesting to view the accounts with specific reference to Harold Lowe's evidence on what happened. |
T. Eric Brown
Member
Username: jack_phillips_lives
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 7:55 pm: |
|
Who were the six people Lowe found alive when he came back? Does anyone know their names?
----------------------------------------
"What do you see?"-Sixth Officer Moody |
Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 871
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 9:31 pm: |
|
Hello Eric,
The number "6" comes from the movie. It is generally accepted that Lowe pulled 3 or 4 from the water.
William Hoyt who died soon after. A Chinese passenger. Fang Lang is the one generally accepted. Crew member Harold Philimore and perhaps "1" other. |
Bill Wormstedt
Member
Username: wormstedt
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
|
This final 'other' may be 2nd class passenger Emilio Portaluppi.
ANTR lists crewman Jack Stewart as picked up by 14, however it appears more likely he was in 15.
Bill
|
Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 874
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 11:32 pm: |
|
Hello Bill,
Thank you for that. I understood Stewart was unlikely, but overlooked Portaluppi.
Regards,
Lester |
Danielle Gastineau
Member
Username: serenity
Post Number: 20
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 1:33 am: |
|
I know I am probably late in this discussion cause I saw most of it was in 2000 but I just wanted to comment.
I would think that before Mr. Lowe left for the wreck site he would of made absolutly sure that no children left on #14.
Danielle
|
Matthew Nicholas Clover
Member
Username: ruthbecker
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 12:04 pm: |
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Hi, I don't know if somebody already asked the question here; but I know lifeboat 14 picked up 4 people out of the water. Who?
Thanks. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 2362
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 7:52 pm: |
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Matthew, read the posts above made on 5 June by Lester and Bill. |
Yan V Ivania
Member
Username: looney_yan
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:29 pm: |
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OK, #14 RETURNED TO PICK UP THE SURVIVORS FROM THE WATER. sO FAR THE MOST COMMON NUMBER OF PEOPLE PICKED FROM THE WATER WAS 4 ( I ALSO HEARD SOMEWHERE 6, I BELEIVE IT WAS A TESTIMONY OF A SAILOR). SO FAR WE CAN ONLY SAY FOR SURE THAT MR. HOYT AND MR. LANG (CHINESE GUY) WERE FISHED OUT FROM THE WATER. THEN GOES THE CONFUSION. SOME SOURCES POInT TO Stewart while the others point to Phillomore. Which one could it be? Is it a possibility that they were both rescued from the water? Can somebody point to an article with thier testimony.
The person # 4 is not mentioned many times. Many people think that it was Mr. Portalluppi ( he claimed to escape on small iceberg) while the other point to Mr. Lavshin ( aka A. Harmer) who died on Carpathia. Also, from my personal research, i couldn't account ten stokers into which boats they left. Their names are Diaper, Dilley, Dore, Flarty, Godley, Graham, Othen, Perry, Self and Sparkman. Is their is possibility that one of those firemen could be person #4? Best regards, YAN. |
Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1060
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:07 am: |
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Yan,
There have been other discussions on who the 4 were. Hopefully a Moderator will see this and move your question and my answer to the appropriate thread.
The most likely names are: William Hoyt who died soon after. Chinese passenger Fang Lang. Crew member Harold Philimore and 2nd class passenger Emilio Portaluppi.
As noted by Bill Wormstedt: "...Jack Stewart ..... it appears more likely he was in 15." |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9102
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:58 am: |
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I have no idea which thread would be the most appropriate so this one seems as good as any.
Oh...Yan, could you do us a wee favour and avoid posting in ALL CAPS? ALL CAPS is surprisingly difficult to read and is considered to be SHOUTING on the internet, and I know you didn't mean to shout at us.
As to your question, there are enough anomolies in the available sources to make it very difficult to tell with absolute 100% certainty who ended up in what boat or how they got there, and it doesn't help that some of the surviviors themselves were not always sure about it. With a ship sunk from beneath them, they understandably had more pressing concerns. Especially if they ended up in the water. Quite a few are known but some will remain forever questionable even though there are some very talanted and capable researchers such as Lester Mitcham who have worked on the problems.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1062
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:15 am: |
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Michael,
The thread I had in mind is: Which Lifeboat: Boats 13 - 16: Lifeboat 14. - Sorry should have specified before.
Lester
[Moderator's note: This post and the three posts above it, were in another thread started today outside of this subtopic, but have been moved here. JDT] |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9106
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:22 pm: |
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Okay Lester...senior moment and all that, and Jason took care of this. For some reason, this thread's link didn't reflect the fact that anything had been moved here.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:46 pm: |
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Hello Michael,
"senior moment and all that" - are you allowed to have any of those? - I thought it was only me! - Go to the fridge and open the Pantry door instead!
With all good wishes for 2006,
Lester |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9112
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 3:45 am: |
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>>"senior moment and all that" - are you allowed to have any of those?<<
I don't think the "Senior Moments" asked my opinion on that any more then did Mr. Arthur Itus. (I hate that guy! He's moved into my left knee to stay!)
>>With all good wishes for 2006, <<
Thanks and to you as well. (Reaches for the Piper Heidsick to toast 2006!)
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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