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Tracy Smith
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 7:02 am: | 
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I've always wondered why the two collapsibles stored upside down, away from the davits, were left until the last moments to be attended to.
It always seemed to me that crewmen should have been assigned to get them ready and fitted into the first available davits vacated by already lowered boats. And that this should have been done as soon as said davits had been vacated. I'm sure they had enough crewmen aboard to have had a group assigned to doing just this without having to take men away from the lifeboats already being lowered.
Anyone know why this wasn't done? Was it that they'd only fit into a specific pair of davits? If that was so, then they could have launched the boat already in those davits early on and allowed the group assigned to those collapsibles enough time to fit them in and use them properly.
Waiting until there wasn't time to launch them properly seems stupid to me. If there's a good reason why they had to have been left until last, I'd like to know. |
Michael H. Standart
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 1:01 pm: |
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Good questions, Tracy, and the funny thing is that they had more lifeboats to deal with then they had competant crewmen to deal with them. They had to put the priority in getting those boats away that they could. As it happens, C and D were stored right side up next to a set of davits and they were reletively simple to get hooked up and away. If memory serves, they were also the last two lifeboats launched successfully.
What I beleive to be really bizzaar is that Collapsibles A and B were stored upside down on top of the deckhouse! That scene in Camaron's flick showcasing the nightmare they had dealing with this set up is probably a lot more accurate then we may think. In retrospect, it all looks pretty silly to us now, but we had best be mindful of the beleif they held that the ship was unsinkable. Why set up lifeboats for an emergency nobody ever expected would happen?
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart |
Dan Cherry
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 3:09 pm: |
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Michael and Tracy,
The collapsibles weren't stored upside down on the roof of the officers quarters. They were right side up, stowed collapsed, in chocks. I can think of two pictures on the Olympic-class liners which show this, one in Titanic Voices, and one in EE O'Donnell's Last Days of Titanic.
The collapsibles on the roof, if the time came for them to be needed, technically could be lowered from a block and pulley system installed on the funnel stays on either side of the collapsible. Though I have seen this pulley system installed on the Olympic (Titanic and her Sisters book), I have never seen it in any Titanic photos (though you can see the eyehooks in the stays where the block and tackle would have been installed), and therefore I believe she went to sea without them aboard. I have found in my years of research that the ship left Southampton less complete than most people know - missing lifeboat equipment, handrails, unpainted components, to name some items.
Regards,
Dan |
Michael H. Standart
| | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 6:23 pm: |
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Thanks Dan, I stand corrected. When the mind goes and all that. Still a clumsy arrangement though. George Behe mentioned something about certain fittings and I beleive some rooms that were incomplete when the ship sailed. A far from unusual occurance. Schedules have to be met so sometimes, shortcuts are taken. I've seen that for myself in new construction for warships.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart |
Dan Cherry
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 3:36 pm: |
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Michael,
clumsy arrangement indeed. They just had to make the "more lifeboats" people happy - nobody said it had to make sense!
I don't quite recall where the original writings came from which had said that A and B were stowed upside down on the roof. ANTR and Cameron's Titanic had them correct.
Regarding going to sea incomplete, in Titanic Voices, it mentions a story by a worker who mentioned the Titanic left Belfast without her clock face on the forward GSC. A small, circular mirror was supposedly inserted in its place until the clock could be installed. I don't know if it arrived, was taken aboard and fitted in Southampton. I can't find anything to go either way.
Regards,
Dan |
Michael H. Standart
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 7:45 pm: |
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That upside down thing may be a cerebral short circuit on my part. Sorry about that. I was going over some very detailed plans (The CAD plans advertised om the TMRA website) and the collapsibles are indeed presented as stowed right side up.
The only photo's I have of the clock on the Grand Staircase were almost assuredly taken on the Olympic, so I can't offer much help there. The Olympic was used as a stand in for her unfortunate sister quite frequently.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart |
Dan Cherry
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 8:44 pm: |
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Michael,
Apologies never necessary! :-)
I have the CAD plans from the TRMA - if you ever want to build a model - they're a must have!
I am going from oft-failing memory, but I think Walter Lord first described the collapsibles as being upside down on the roof. It's not a cerebral short circuit you had, just remembering that you read it somewhere, but I think Lord just made a deduction based on the best evidence he had at the time.
In researching and corroborating with other Titanic researchers, Olympic pictures can be helpful in obtaining a glimpse of Titanic, though in other aspects it is not, or poses even more questions. Unfortunately for the Titanic researcher, Olympic was the favored sister, mostly because she was the first, and was around the longest. Olympic's building, launching, outfitting and maiden sailing were extensively covered. When Titanic came around, the documentation hoopla had died down. Kind of like the second moon landing...
Regards,
Dan |
Michael H. Standart
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 12:09 am: |
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>>Kind of like the second moon landing...<<
Yeah, until the ship sank. I heard that little manuever raised a few eyebrows.
I have both of Lord's books back in my collection, with kind thanks to the generosity of Karen Sweigart for The Night Lives On. I'll have to double check my texts when I can. So many books, so little time.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart |
Tracy Smith
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 12:28 am: |
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I got the upside down idea from ANTR; that's for sure |
jacqueline hall
| | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 11:02 pm: |
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In one part of a statement given to the newspaper by my grandfather Harry Senior, a fireman on the Titanic, he states "we got up to the hurricane deck to lower some of the collapsible boats but there was no tackle or anything to load them by. we had to throw them down to the boat deck and run the risk of their breaking"
He was aboard collapsible lifeboat B |
Jan C. Nielsen
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 1:50 pm: |
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Jacqueline,
Regarding your grandfather, if you look in the "Survivor Suicides" and "PTSD Sydromes" you'll see that it appears that a large number of survivors suffered from some kind of post traumatic syndrome. It appears to be random, but I've also noticed that there are certain trends: the men on the bridge, prominent public persons who survived in the lifeboats, and the men on collapsible B.
With respect to the survivors from B, Jack Thayer committed suicide, Archie Gracie died shortly after the sinking, John Collins ended up in an insane asylum, Second Officer Lightoller suffered various symptoms of PTSD.
To your knowledge, and if you don't mind me asking, did your grandfather suffer any kind of phobia, stress, symptoms, or whatever, as a result of the disaster? |
jacqueline hall
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 9:06 pm: |
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Jan,
I have asked my mother if her father suffered from any of the disorders you mention and the answer was no. He was a happy family man and an excellent father. Granddad died in 1937 of throat cancer. I hope this answers your query. |
Jan C. Nielsen
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 6:32 am: |
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Okay, Jacqueline, thanks very much for checking that out. |
Karen Sweigart
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 10:01 pm: |
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"with kind thanks to the generosity of Karen Sweigart for The Night Lives On."
You're welcome Michael!! |
Manuel Reiprich
Member
Username: manuel
Post Number: 37
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 2:01 pm: |
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I have two questions about Collapsible B:
How many people were already on its keel when the ship sank at 2.20? Harold Bride was under the boat, I know, but who was the first person above?
And second question:
What was the position of B to the ship at that time? I would think the boat should have still swim nearby the submerged bow,( a few meters away of the ship cause of the falling first funnel).
But Eugene Daly and Jack Thayer said (Titanic: An illustrated History) that they were afraid that the STERN could fall on the boat.
How could they were afraid if the boat was nearby the BOW?
Cordially
Manuel Reiprich |
Manuel Reiprich
Member
Username: manuel
Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 4:59 pm: |
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Another question:
When did they start to prepare the two boats to lower them from the officers roof to the boat deck?
Cordially
Manuel |
Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 527
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 4:02 pm: |
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When the other boats were all gone? |
Bill Wormstedt
Member
Username: wormstedt
Post Number: 655
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 8:57 pm: |
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I think A and B were first looked at, AFTER C and D had been launched. Due to location, and that A and B would use the same davits as C and D.
For example, Lightoller helped load and launch D. When done there, he climbed up on the roof with some others, and started trying to get B down to the deck. |
Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 541
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:08 pm: |
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>>A and B would use the same davits as C and D.<<
Unfortunately, there was no time for the davits!
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Bill Wormstedt
Member
Username: wormstedt
Post Number: 657
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 4:56 pm: |
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Jeremy:
Exactly! Both C and D were lowered just a short distance to the water (10 or 15 feet, I think), and it was coming up fast. By the time A and B were gotten down to the deck, and the crew started trying to attach A to the falls (B being upside down), the water was coming up on deck and it was too late. |
Jeremy Lee
Member
Username: achynes
Post Number: 566
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 9:11 am: |
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That's why even if there were adequate lifeboats on the Titanic, I would seriously doubt that they would be launched in time. |
Terry Adams
Member
Username: terry_adams
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 5:01 pm: |
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This is my first posting. My wife's great uncle was Carl Olof Jansson, a single 3rd class, Swedeish survivor; who entered the water after CA & CB were "launched" and swam to one of them. All sources in this web site show him aboard CA with a friend (August Wennerstrom (Andersson)). However a newspaper article the family has saved mentions that he was aboard an inverted CB with S/O Lightoller and his friend Wennerstrom. One thing I have found is that Carl's interviews changed drastically over time, which is true of many of the 3rd Class surviving men. I am trying to clear this up. Does anyone know of any accurate evidence confirming his being on Collapsible A and not on B ?? |
Chris Dohany
Member
Username: cdohany
Post Number: 124
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 1:09 am: |
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If I recall correctly some of Wennerstrom's accounts likewise mentioned Jansson being with him. Wennerstrom's description of the disposition of his boat point to collapsible A, as well as his mention of Mr. and Mrs. Lindell being in or at this boat. One of the Lindells' wedding rings was later found in 'A', lending credence to Wennerstrom (and thus Jansson) being in the boat. |
Peter Engberg-Klarström
Member
Username: peter
Post Number: 139
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 11:31 am: |
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Dear Terry, Carl Olof Jansson wrote a lengthy letter to his parents a short time after the disaster. This letter describes the events in and near collapsible boat A. There is no doubt that he was in boat A. |
Terry Adams
Member
Username: terry_adams
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 4:50 pm: |
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Dear Peter, Thank you for your response. We do have the letter that Carl wrote to his family after his rescue aboard the Carpathia. It only refers to the boat he and his friend were in, as a "raft" and not as Collapsible "A" or "B". However a later newspaper article from his home town (Wahoo,NE)states that he remembered being in a Collapsible boat with S/O Lightoller (which would have been Collapsible B, not A. This article introduces some doubt as to which boat he was in. Can you tell me why you feel "there is no doubt that he was in boat A" ?? |
Chris Dohany
Member
Username: cdohany
Post Number: 125
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 5:44 pm: |
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I wonder if Jansson was mistaking officer Lowe for officer Lightoller? |
Mike Herbold
Member
Username: mikeh
Post Number: 418
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 8:25 pm: |
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Terry:
Drop me a line, and I'll put you in touch with August Wennerstrom's grandson. You two can compare notes.
Mike Herbold
mikeherbold@hotmail.com |
Peter Engberg-Klarström
Member
Username: peter
Post Number: 141
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 1:57 am: |
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Terry,in his interviews in Swedish, he mentions being on a raft filled with water. As far as I can remember, he never mentioned that the boat was upside down or something to that effect. Either he or Wennerström talked about the Lindells being in or near the boat, and the fact that their wedding ring (the Lindell one) was found in boat A later would confirm their presence in the boat. There was no other Swede with them as far as I know.
Peter |
T. Eric Brown
Member
Username: jack_phillips_lives
Post Number: 38
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
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Has anyone else noticed that in almost every novel about the Titanic that the hero of the story always jumps overboard and is rescued by Collapsible B? What is the fascination with that boat? After all, a boat is a boat.
"What do you see?"-Sixth Officer James Moody
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Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 2212
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
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When writing fiction, collapsible B comes in handy because the exact number on board it is a bit vague. A writer can happily add one more. The numbers taken into the conventional lifeboats are far better known. And, of course, it makes the fictional character's escape more dramatic.
As far as I can see, the collapsibles were not known by letters until the British inquiry reported. None of the witnesses mention them by letter in the inquiries or in the press. Their accounts are therefore sometimes a bit confusing. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3974
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 6:00 am: |
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Agreeing with the points Dave makes. Putting your protagonist on Collapsible B keeps him with the ship as long as possible, then puts him in the water (I've used the male gender deliberately - both historically and, for the most part in fiction, B's survivors were male). It also places him in close proximity to some of the high-profile characters who left vivid accounts - Lightoller, Gracie, Bride and Thayer. Those accounts have helped to give 'B' a higher profile in the past - something noticeable in, for example, the movie version of ANTR.
'A' would serve an author's dramatic purposes as well, but the accounts of her survivors are, for the most part, less entrenched in canonical Titanic literature - at least not to the same degree that those survivors named above have been. I believe Biel touched upon the matter of surviving atop 'B' in fiction in Down with the Old Canoe. Now that the balance is being redressed in research and more accounts of 'A' are available to authors, I wonder if we'll start seeing 'A' creep into fiction more. We saw a hint of it in Cameron's movie, with Cal surviving on 'A' rather than 'B'. |
T. Eric Brown
Member
Username: jack_phillips_lives
Post Number: 43
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 8:40 pm: |
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Another reason we might begin seeing 'A' pop up more often is because 'B' is becoming cliche. If you add up all the fictional characters that were saved on B, the boat's population likely doubles. A is less glamorous. It's half swamped. The people on it are all soaked with icy cold water. Boat 4 was the only other boat nearby and it's no more special than the other boats. B holds some special place in Titanic lore that I have never fully understood, but have embraced in my short story. (Yes, I fell for the cliche, guilty as charged.) Enjoyed those interesting thoughts.
"What do you see?"-Sixth Officer James Moody
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Marilyn Lena Penner
Member
Username: marylinusca
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 9:18 pm: |
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I think there is more room for dramatic tension if the protagonist swims toward the upside-down "B" instead of heading for the half-swamped "A".
I'll grant that there is dramatic tension in "A's" situation. "A's" lot are cold, wretched and probably frantically bailing out water with whatever they found. They had to survive two vessels going down beneath their feet: the Titanic and the collapsible.
But "B's" lot had more trouble. The protagonist had to swim in the frigid saltwater to the upturned boat. (Hypothermia, and the weight waterlogged clothing sapping his strength) He had to pull himself onto the rounded bottom (now the top). I'm guessing that it would have been slick, not an easy grip for a tired man. Those who got on it before him would have tried to push him off, like they tried in the movie of ANTR. Would he have given up, like the gambler in that movie? Or would he assert himself, like Mr. Lightoller did? Also from the film, he would find it hard to keep his balance on the rounded bottom as it bobbed in the waves. And "B" was slowly sinking as the air beneath it leaked out. And if Mr. Lightoller didn't have his whistle, would any of the other boats bobbling in the darkness have seen their plight? "B" provided more tension building "Will our hero survive?" moments than "A" could have done.
Also, Lightoller was a leader, a heroic character. That's how Walter Lord wrote of him and how Kenneth More portrayed him in the film. A vigorous action man is interesting to readers.
Add Harold Bride, the wireless man, to inform the men on "B" [and the reader] that Carpathia is steaming to the rescue. Will Carpathia get to them before "B" goes under? Think of the babble from the men on "B": "What about Olympic? Baltic? That German ship? Aren't they coming?" "What about that mystery ship with the light just over the horizon?" "A" and the other lifeboats probably didn't know when help would come. "B" had some hopeful news, but would Carpathia, or someone, get to them in time?
I don't think "B" is a cliche because, after Titanic, it was the vessel most likely to sink. Therefore it has the most dramatic possiblities.
[Although if I was writing a Titanic fiction, I would write a verbal blow by blow account of what was said and done in Boat 6.]
Marilyn P.
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Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 2260
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:12 pm: |
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Here are some useful facts.
The men on collapsible B may have thought it would sink but in fact it couldn't. Its hull was divided into many compartments filled with cork. Unlike Titanic, it was unsinkable. You might get some dramatic irony out of this.
The men were helped to stay on board by the boat's clinker construction. The ridges gave them footholds. Without them, they may well have slipped off. Modern lifeboats have handrails on their bottoms in case of capsize. |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3444
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 3:49 am: |
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Hi Marilyn,
quote:[Although if I was writing a Titanic fiction, I would write a verbal blow by blow account of what was said and done in Boat 6.]
That would make for very interesting reading. I can already think of a few things!
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
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