| Author |
Message |
    
Seong Ae-Mun
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2000 - 8:21 am: | 
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I was wondering if anyone had any accounts from Miss Julie Smyth, who was probably rescued in Lifeboat # 13. I would appreciate any help in finding any accounts from her. Also, who does everyone feel was the oriental man who was seen in Lifeboat # 13? I have seen Masabuni Hosono placed in this lifeboat, or alternatively, one of the Chinese sailors. Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.
Most sincerely,
Seong |
Phillip Gowan (Philg)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2000 - 3:53 pm: |
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Seong,
Julia Smyth's story will be a part of the soon to be published biographical book by Senan Molony about the Irish aboard Titanic. But briefly, she had an unhappy first marriage about which she never spoke and later a very long and happy marriage. I've been in close touch with her niece in Jamaica, New York who did not even know that her aunt had previously been married until I told her. Julia had no children but adored her nieces and I have a great photo of a smiling Julia with her niece Diana taken in Central Park. She lived out her entire life in New York City and is buried there.
Regards,
Phillip Gowan |
Michael Findlay (Mikef)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2000 - 11:19 pm: |
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Dear Seong,
Masabumi Hosono was not rescued in boat #13. According to Hosono's own recently discovered account of the sinking, he was saved in boat #10. Steward F. Dent Ray remembered a "Japanese" man in boat #13. However, I believe Ray may have been mistaken in his identification. Although it is possible that one of the Chinese sailors made it into boat #13, it appears that they were all together at boat C. Since there were a number of men who entered boat #13, I'm sure that all of the Chinese sailors had a better opportunity to get into this boat if they were there.
Regarding Julia Smyth White, she lived in New York City until her death in 1977. Unfortunately, my fellow researchers and I recently discovered that her grave is unmarked at the St. Raymond's Cemetery in the Bronx. My research has led me to believe that Julia Smyth was in boat #13, along with several friends.
I hope this information will be of some help.
Sincerely,
Michael Findlay |
Peter Engberg-Klarström (Peter)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2000 - 3:27 pm: |
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Dear everybody, re a Chinese in boat 13; Agnes Sandström of boat 13 also remembered a Japanese (that's what she said) in her boat, as did steward Ray, so there doesn't seem to be much doubt about that fact. Four other Chinese sailors made it into boat C, and one was picked up from the sea, making six survivors out of eight. As for Mr Hosono; his recollections only mention incidents in or near boat No 10, where the crew remembered a Japanese or Chinese man in the boat.
Peter Engberg-Klarström |
Seong Ae-Mun
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2000 - 6:08 am: |
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Dear Mark and Peter,
Thank you kindly for your thoughts regarding the Oriental passenger seen in Lifeboat #13. I was also wondering if either of you had seen anything to suggest that there might have been an Oriental passenger in Lifeboat #15. One Irish lady in this boat said that there was a "Japanese man" who had escaped by hiding himself in the boat. If Mr. Hosono was in Lifeboat #10, and four of the six Chinese sailors were in Collapsible C, one in Lifeboat #13, and one picked up by Lifeboat #14, then who might this have been? I was wondering if there is any accounts that anyone is aware of that refer to an Oriental passenger in Lifeboat #15. I find it difficult to accept the Irish lady's word without additional evidence, unless there is evidence that there were more than seven Oriental passengers on the ship. She might well have been mistaken, or perhaps this lady was in Lifeboat #13 and not #15? Her name was Berta Mulvehill. Thank you again much for your thoughts and opinions.
Sincerely,
Seong |
Peter Engberg-Klarström (Peter)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2000 - 1:37 pm: |
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Dear Seong, I don't think there was any Chinese person in boat No 15. Bertha Mulvihill is one of those Irish ladies who is a bit difficult to place in a particular lifeboat as far as I know. If memory serves me correctly, she is one of the ladies Eugene Daly claimed to have helped before the ship sank. He would also claim that there was shooting near the lifeboat into which he helped the two ladies, so this would indicate No 14, I believe. There was no sort of shooting near the starboard aft boats at any rate, and no man had to hide in any way in boats 13 or 15, since they both were filled mainly with men (2/3 and 3/4 respectively). Do you think she might be referring to a Syrian man? I am not sure whether 'Oriental' is correct in that case, but still...one never knows. Be that as it may, there were indeed six surviving Chinese men and one Japanese, but there were five Syrian men saved as well. I believe most of them claimed they had to jump for it, but again, so did most third class men. I have a strong feeling they ended up in No 15, even though some people have placed the Syrian men in boat D, based on Chief Steward Hardy's account, but he does not say there were Syrian men in the boat, and other passengers deny this.
Peter
Peter |
Senan Molony
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 6:46 pm: |
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Hmmm... Julia Smyth was indeed in #13 with compatriot Kate Connolly. Somes Irish female accounts seem to place Daniel Buckley in this boat too, and Buckley says shots were fired over the heads of men who entered the boat in which he eventually stayed in a bid to encourage them to climb out.. I wouldn't be so sure that there was no shooting on the starboard side until Collapsible C.
Smyth, Buckley, and other boat 13 accounts will be included in "The Irish Aboard Titanic", published by Wolfhound Press, next month May 2000. |
Peter Engberg-Klarström (Peter)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 10:57 pm: |
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Dear Senan, re shootings on the ship; no witnesses from the starboard side ever mention shootings taking place before boat C left. I agree that Buckley's account is a bit enigmatic; he describes being threatened etc, which does not go well with the starboard side at all, where men were (more or less) freely allowed to enter the boats. I have seen suggestions that men tried to trick themselves into the starboard boats, but to the best of my knowledge this was not necessary - when there were no more women around, men could enter without further ado, provided there was space for them. Julia Smyth mentions a young lad from Ireland whom she knew, who was in her lifeboat if memory serves me correctly. I can't remember whether she actually gives the name, though.
Peter |
Pat Cook
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 9:22 am: |
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For what it's worth I really don't believe that Daniel Buckley was in lifeboat #13. What I base this on is the following:
Buckley stated at the U S Hearings that: "I went into the boat. Then two officers came along and said all the men should come out..."
This event isn't mentioned in any other accounts I have read, those being of Beauchamp, Barrett, F. D. Ray, Lawrence Beesley and Washington Dodge. (Working on Hilda Slayter right now as well.)
Buckley stated at the U S Hearings that "...the officers drew their revolvers and fired shots over our heads..." Again, no mention in any of the other occupants' accounts listed above.
Then Buckley stated that after he managed to stay in the boat, it was lowered and he makes no mention of the horror of BOTH being lowered into the path of the water exhaust threatening to swamp the small boat OR the impending lifeboat #15, which was lowered almost on top of #13.
And, of course, Buckley's account that he was covered with a shawl, disguised as a woman. Again, none of the other accounts mentions this NOR (as one of you pointed out earlier, I believe) was there any reason to disguise Buckley since men were allowed into the boats on the starboard side.
Again, just my opinion on this point - take it for what it's worth.
Best regards,
Cook |
David Gleicher
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 8:54 pm: |
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Pat,
I agree with you. I think the evidence points in fact to Lifeboat #14, which left around the same time as #13, and in which the various incidents described by Buckley occurred.
DG |
Dave Gittins
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 9:58 pm: |
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How’s this for a theory on Dan Buckley?
His story does not fit boat 13. This boat saw no guns fired but it did have the drama with boat 15, which Buckley never mentions. He obviously was not in boat 4 with Madeleine Astor as he thought, because that was lowered from A deck and again there was no gunfire.
I favour boat 14. He says he went in the 6th boat lowered and if he means the 6th on the port side this could have been boat 14. The British enquiry put it 5th on that side but Lowe said 12, 14 and 16 all went at much the same time. Rough enough, I say. As it was lowered, Lowe fired shots, which Buckley, crouching in the boat, could easily have thought went over his head. There are reports that some kind of verbal warning was also given.
Lowe later found an “Italian” with a shawl over his head and pitched him into another boat when he was preparing to go to the rescue of those in the sea. Given that Lowe had trouble identifying nationalities and used “Italian” as a synonym for “coward”, I suggest that the “Italian” was in fact Buckley. If Buckley said nothing to Lowe at the time, he could well have been taken for a non-English speaker.
Now I’ll just sit back and prepare to duck! |
Pat Cook
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2000 - 9:49 am: |
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Hi, Dave,
Makes sense to me! I have since heard from Peter Engberg-Klarstrom and Tad Fitch and both agree that Buckley was probably in either #14 or C. (They may post their own conclusions here later - I hope I'm quoting them correctly.) Peter tends, however, to lean toward C, because of the shooting and pulling out of men passengers.
However, to be honest with you, for years I always thought the man pulled up by Lowe was Buckley. On the other hand, he (Buckley) makes no mention of the event at the hearings, this after he boldly 'confessed' to passing for a woman and crying. I tend to believe Buckley was in C myself. JMHO, here - take it for what it's worth.
Best regards,
Cook |
Tad Fitch
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2000 - 5:18 pm: |
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Hello Dave,
How are you? I tend to agree with Pat and Peter here regarding Buckley, and also feel that he probably boarded Collapsible C. The reasons I believe this, are because he mentions the gunfire and men being pulled out of the boat, and also that the ship sank about fifteen minutes after his boat had been lowered away. Collapsible C was lowered around this same ammount of time before the ship sank. As for the "Italian" who "dressed himself like a woman" and was discovered by Fifth Officer Lowe, I feel that this may have been Edward Ryan. He was in Lifeboat # 14, and admitted in a private letter that he covered his head with a shawl to escape.
Best regards,
Tad Fitch |
Dave Gittins
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2000 - 1:57 am: |
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Shooting at collapsible C? Primary source please! That was the boat Bruce Ismay went in and I know of no account of shooting or of men being pulled out. |
David Gleicher
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2000 - 5:13 am: |
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There are accounts by Thayer, Woolner, Daly and Rheims of shots around the launching (using the term loosely) of the last two collapsibles (C and A) on the sarboard side--this is where the celebrated suicide/murder claim comes from. Others, notably Rowe, Pearcey and Ismay himself denied that any disturbances occurred in the launching of collapsible C. By contrast, as Lord writes, there is only one thoroughly documented shooting on the Titanic--that was by Lowe during the loading of lifeboat 14.
In any case, a careful reading of Buckley's testimony, it seems to me, makes it unlikely that collapsible C was the lifeboat Buckley entered. Buckley testified that he helped in the preparing and launching of five lifeboats and to have jumped into the sixth. One can infer these were lifeboats at the rear of the ship, which were launched within minutes of each other. In what sense collapsible C would have been the 'sixth boat' is unclear.
Moreover, Buckley does not refer at all to heading to the front of the ship to get to the sixth lifeboat. And if we are to believe, as Quinn contends, that collapsible C was launched at 2AM or so, would Buckley have completely left out the fact that he entered one of the last boats on the ship, the one which the famous Ismay had also gotten into? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?
DG |
Pat Cook
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2000 - 1:27 pm: |
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Wow! A lot of good points brought up here! Since I am only involved with a Lawrence Beesley related project at the moment, my only intention was to find out who was in #13 and who wasn't.
As regards Buckley being in #14 or collapsible C, I have a question. How do we know that Buckley, after going back down stairs again and returning, went to the sternmost boat deck? What if he went toward the bow? He mentions only 6 boats left, what about lifeboats 2, 4, 6, D, C...?
Also, in Mary Higgins' biography of her mother, Bridget Bradley - "Unsinkable Bridget", she tells of the great friendship of Daniel Buckley and her mother; they knew each other before the voyage, embarked together, explored the ship together, etc. In the book, Higgins states that Buckley placed Bridget into a lifeboat, even has her check the number and call it out to him. Lifeboat #4.
I obviously don't have any definite answers here but, amazingly enough, until this discussion started, I would never have even THOUGHT of Buckley being on the forward boat deck.
Now I realize this book was written decades later and by a woman who only heard the stories her mother told. Just thought I would 'add this to the mix', so to speak. I'm just glad we elliminated him from #13 - he's out of my hair!
Best regards,
Cook |
David Gleicher
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2000 - 4:55 pm: |
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Pat,
There are numerous difficulties with your sequence of lifeboats 2, 4, 6, D, C.
Collapsible D was launched after C.
Passengers on lifeboat 4 were organized very early on--12:30 or so--and had all sorts of problems, the boat not being launched until very late--1:55 or so. Buckley clearly did not work on this boat, although it is conceivable that he did leave Bridgett Bradley with lifeboat 4 when he first came to the boat deck, which likely was around 12:30. The Encyclopedia Titanica does not list Bradley in lifeboat 4, however.
Finally, lifeboat 6 left early on, around 12:55, much before lifeboat 2 which left around 1:45.
In short, there is almost no possibility Buckley was referring to boats at the front of the ship.
DG |
Pat Cook
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2000 - 7:21 pm: |
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David,
I apoligize - I was simply listing the boats that, for one reason or another, left about or after 1:OO; I wasn't trying to list them in order of departure.
Also, I am not one of those who believe that Bradley was in #4, nor do I disbelieve it - wide open on that one. I was merely placing here the account written by her daughter.
However, after rereading Clear Cameron's and Nellie Walcroft's letters (both the personal one to 'Clara' and her newspaper letter) and Charlotte Collyer's article (which is here on Phil's site, as you probably know) - all of which state that, outside of Lowe firing warning shots and one 'lad' jumping into the boat, there were no men pulled from #14 nor skirmish with any officers, I still believe Buckley was (of our choices, given the evidence we've covered thus far) in collapsible C. Just my opinion here;take it for what it's worth. Wide open on this one, as well, tho'.
Thanks for your patience and research!
Best regards,
Cook |
Dave Gittins
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2000 - 11:28 am: |
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Following comments from David Gleicher I had another look at the evidence he mentions. If anything I’m more confused. Undoubtably some disturbance involving gunshots took place at the forward end of the boat deck but exactly what took place where is a mystery.
Rheims give a graphic description of a passenger being shot and an officer shooting himself but merely says it happened at the last boat and does not say on which side.
The version of Daly’s tale that I have says that he saw two passengers shot below decks, when they tried to rush the stairs. I believe there is another version of his tale. I don’t like his credibility.
Thayer, writing many years on, says there were two starboard boats left when McElroy fired two shots into the air. I don’t generally trust these old memories, but at least this has some agreement with Woolner.
The most detailed account is from Hugh Woolner, who says he was on the port side when he saw the flashes of two pistol shots on the starboard and went to investigate. According to him a number of men were hauled out of what sounds like boat C. He was quite clear that it was a collapsible and that it was later lowered, so he doesn’t mean boat A. The odd thing is that nobody else records this at boat C. Also four stowaways remained in the boat in spite of threats and gunfire. Is Woolner merely trying to put himself in a good light by contrasting his conduct with the less brave? (You can see I’m a cynical devil!)
Overall, I’m still sticking to Buckley being in boat 14. This is the one boat we can definitely connect with both gunshots and action to keep men out. Lowe said he fired shots and others agreed. Lowe found a man wearing a shawl over his head. To me, it all adds up, but after all this is Titanic and it’s part of the fun to argue out matters like this, though in the great overall picture, they don’t really matter a damn. |
Tad Fitch
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2000 - 8:16 pm: |
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Dear David,
Hello. How are you? Are you so sure that there are not enough references to shots fired at Collapsible C to thoroughly establish the incident that occurred there? I would not be. Over a dozen people who were in Collapsible C (or present during the loading of the boat) later testified, wrote letters describing the event, or gave press interviews which mention shots fired at that boat. Some of the witnesses include Mariana Assaf, Emily Badman, Abraham Hyman, Frankie Goldsmith, Ellen Shine, Amy Stanley, Bjornstrom Steffanson, Jack Thayer, Mrs. Whabee, and Hugh Woolner. Fireman Harry Senior saw Murdoch fire shots in the air at this boat, and related the story in a interview that appeared in the Daily Sketch. Hugh Woolner testified about this incident, also saying that Murdoch fired the shots. Jack Thayer recalled an officer firing two shots at the boat as well, but thought McElroy was the officer involved. He wrote that in 1940. There is just as many accounts of shots fired at Collapsible C as there is of shots fired at Lifeboat # 14, if not more, so why would you suggest that this incident cannot be established? A quick glance at the biographies of the occupants of Collapsible C on this site will reveal some of the accounts mentioned above.
You wrote:
"Overall, I’m still sticking to Buckley being in boat 14. This is the one boat we can definitely connect with both gunshots and action to keep men out. Lowe said he fired shots and others agreed. Lowe found a man wearing a shawl over his head."
As I showed above, this is not the "one boat" we can definitely connect with gunfire. Shots were fired at Collapsible C, and men were thrown out. Buckley's description fits Collapsible C better than Lifeboat # 14. Shots were fired at both boats, but only one man was thrown out of # 14, while several men were thrown out of Collapsible C, just as Buckley testified. Buckley describes that his lifeboat left 15 minutes before the ship sank. Lifeboat # 14 left over 35 minutes before the ship sank, while Collapsible C left around 15 minutes before the ship sank. As for the man with the shawl that Fifth Officer Lowe found in Lifeboat # 14, remember that Edward Ryan was definitely in this boat, and admitted in a private letter that he covered himself with a shawl and was able to walk past the officer in charge, who thought he was a woman. As for Buckley's description of how many boats he saw lowered, what are the odds that the "sixth boat" he saw lowered was actually the sixth boat lowered on the his side of the boat deck? Remember, he did not gain immediate access to the boat deck, and many boats were lowered nearly simultaneously, so it is unlikely that he would have known that he was in the sixth boat lowered on his side of the ship. The sixth boat he saw lowered, or helped lower? Sure. The sixth boat that actually left on his side of the ship? Unlikely.
There are two other shooting incidents that are mentioned in survivor accounts, but cannot be as thoroughly established. Colonel Gracie related how Lightoller told him that he fired shots at Collapsible D, but this incident cannot be established. For details of the shooting incident at Collapsible A (which, by the way, is a completely seperate incident from what occurred at Collapsible C), I refer you to Bill Wormstedt and George Behe's excellent websites. Their address can be found in the links page on this site. I hope this helps clear up which gunfire incidents can be established, and which cannot. I hope that you will have a nice start to the week.
Best regards,
Tad Fitch |
Peter Engberg-Klarström
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2000 - 8:56 am: |
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Dear Tad, I also tend to agree with you that there indeed was some sort of shooting near C (though not aimed at anyone). However, how do we know that Mariana Assaf, Mrs Wahabee and Ellen Shine were in or near boat C? Mrs Assaf's interview I have seen is rather vague and inconclusive, Mrs Wahabee's accounts could indicate C or D, and Ellen Shine I have seen placed in several different boats (among others, No 16). Håkan Björnström Steffanson gave several different accounts in Swedish, sometimes obviously having to jump for it - the almost compulsory story for men - but he doesn't stress the fact that there was shooting in any account in Swedish. I didn't know that Emily Badman described shooting near C? Or Amy Stanley for that matter? Frankie Goldsmith was rather young at the time, and his mother certainly never mentions an incident of that sort. I know that Hilda Hellström never mentioned that at all, and nor did anyone of the witnesses at the two inquests.....
Peter |
Tad Fitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2000 - 5:11 pm: |
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Dear Peter,
I completely agree with you regarding the warning shots fired at Collapsible C. They do not seem to have been aimed at anyone (however, the alleged incident at Collapsible A is an entirely different matter, and the subject of much debate, but I am not going to get into that now). As for the placements that you are unsure of, I assume that you tend to agree with me on Mrs. Assaf and Mrs. Whabee, since you have them placed in Collapsible C on this site, and your own website, just as I do.
He may not have said so in certain Swedish interviews that you have seen, but Björnström Steffanson most certainly *did* mention shots fired at Collapsible C (aimed in the air), and says that he jumped down into Collapsible D to escape. He told this in a widely published account which appeared in the New York Times, and several other papers.
You wrote:
"I know that Hilda Hellström never mentioned that at all, and nor did anyone of the witnesses at the two inquests....."
The incident at Collapsible C *was* mentioned during the American inquiry. Hugh Woolner testified that Murdoch fired shots at Collapsible C, that Steffanson and himself pulled men out of this boat, and that they both jumped down into Collapsible D from A-Deck as it was being lowered. Steffanson's own account agrees with this completely, and was given before Woolner even testified.
Emily Badman did mention seeing shots fired in several interviews, and Amy Stanley wrote about the gunfire at Collapsible C in a private letter, saying that a man jumped into the boat, and that an officer fired shots to "frighten the men from rushing the boat."
Frankie Goldsmith was 9 at the time of the sinking, definitely old enough to retain clear memories of the disaster. In several interviews, he mentioned that an officer fired shots at his boat, but that they were aimed in the air. He even gave recorded interviews in which he mentions this....
Best regards,
Tad Fitch |
Michael Poirier
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 11:57 am: |
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Pat:
Buckley printed one one of those accounts that unfortunately you have to take with a grain of salt. You can tell just by reading it that some things don't mesh.
Mike |
Pat Cook
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 1:22 pm: |
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Mike,
Believe me, I do. As I wrote in an earlier posting on this thread, I personally don't believe Bradley was in #4. I was simply making the point that, due to Bradley's overall story and the frequency with which Daniel Buckley shows up, the two MUST'VE known each other before getting on the ship. As to which boat either escaped in, I'm still open. I believe, however, they were not in the SAME boat.
Best regards,
Cook |
Manuel Reiprich
Member
Username: manuel
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:40 am: |
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Hello all !
I have questions about the lowering of Nr. 9, 11, 13, 15. I have heard that they were regulary loaded with passengers from Deck A (like Nr. 4) and not from the boat deck. All four boats?
And when were they swung out and lowered to the A-Deck? Just before loading ( around 1.20 ) or already at the beginning of the evacuation?
Manuel
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Manuel Reiprich
Member
Username: manuel
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 12:24 pm: |
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Nobody who knows an answer?  |
Peter Engberg-Klarström
Member
Username: peter
Post Number: 167
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 2:41 pm: |
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Dear Manuel, boats 11 and 13 were mainly loaded with passengers and crew from Deck A. No. 13 probably had some crew in it from Boat Deck, however, before it was lowered to Deck A. No. 15 was probably mainly filled with people (mainly men - passengers and crew) from Boat Deck, then took a few more from Deck A. Washington Dodge said he observed a big group of people around No. 15 on Boat Deck, so he descended to Deck A instead and entered No. 13 from there. Boat No. 9 on the other hand is rather enigmatic. I haven't found conclusive evidence re if it was loaded and lowered from Boat Deck or Deck A.
Best regards,
Peter |
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