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Joe Shomi (Shomi)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2000 - 11:13 pm: |       |
It strikes me that a fair number of survivors of the Titanic's sinking committed suicide, in years later. Other surivors seemed to have developed a psychosis about it. I've read accounts of several survivors who never talked about the Titanic for the rest of their lives (persons, in addition to, B. Ismay). I can think, offhand, of three who committed suicide, Frederick Fleet, Jack Thayer, and Washington Dodge. Does anyone know of others? Do you think that the suicides are related to the Titanic tragedy in any way? Does anyone have any thoughts on the effect that the tragedy had on survivors mental health in later years? |
Lou Kerr (Lkerr)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2000 - 12:18 am: | |
Hi Joe, I've been struck by this too. Two more passengers that committed suidide according to their information on this site are Dr. Henry Frauenthal and a third class male passenger who was living in Detroit (sorry I can't remember his name) who killed himself in 1951 after his wife divorced him. I've also read elsewhere that Madeline Astor took her own life and I've read on here that she didn't. |
Chris Daino (Chris)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2000 - 2:48 am: | |
According to Titanic: Women & CHildren first, Madeline Astor had a heart condition to which she succumbed.
Jack Thayer committed suicide in 1945, after his mother died. 33 years after the sinking.
Fredrick Fleet committed suicide at the age of 70 something and after his wife died. He was 26 when Titanic sank.
Thats a long time in between the sinking and the suicide.
Chris |
Phillip Gowan (Philg)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2000 - 4:08 am: | |
To the best of my knowledge, only 7 survivors committed suicide--none directly related to their Titanic experience. There are claims that Dodge was murdered and Frauenthal accidentally fell, but I think the evidence weighs in for suicide--especially in the case of Dr. Dodge.
1. Dr. Washington Dodge--1919--gunshot wound to the head due to business and investment problems.
2. Dr. Henry William Frauenthal--1927--jumped from his apartment balcony after months of depression partially resulting from the mental illness of his wife.
3. Johan (John) Niskanen--1927--gunshot wound to head and burns after he set his cabin on fire--depression over failure to strike gold on his property in California.
4. Jack Thayer--1945--throat slit with razor due to depression over the loss of his son, Edward Cassatt Thayer, during World War II.
5. John Morgan Davis--1951--ingested poison during the Christmas holidays after his wife left him.
6. Phyllis May Quick--1954--gunshot wound to the head allegedly due to marital problems.
7. Frederick Fleet--1965--hung himself on a clothesline--due to depression following the death of his wife Eva and being evicted from his home by her brother.
There is also a possibility that gambler George Brayton committed suicide by throwing himself in front of a train in Calexico, California in 1920. I haven't been able to prove that that George Brayton is the same man on Titanic.
Madeleine Astor's cause of death was more likely an accidental overdose of prescription drugs. |
Joe Shomi (Shomi)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2000 - 4:54 am: | |
Gentlemen: Thank you for the excellent feedback. I think that question remains, however, whether the Titanic tragedy contributed to these deaths? And to what degree? Certainly, there were immediate, unrelated triggering events to the suicides: Thayer's son's death, the loss of Fleet's wife. Additionally, there were many years between the Titanic's sinking, and these suicides. But, I think, this is precisely how mental illness works. For example, in Robert Louis Stevenson's famous novel, "The Strange Case of Dr. Jeykll and Mr. Hyde" (which is really a story about mental illness, not monsters), toward the very end Dr. Jeykll explains that "I did not know that the doom and burden of man's life is forever on his shoulders, and when the attempt is made to cast it off, it but returns with more awful pressure." A tragedy revives itself, and its victims relive it, year after year. It probably only gets worse. I believe that despite the remoteness in time between the Titanic event and the suicides of Thayer, Fleet, or the others, the Titanic tragedy could have made these persons, progressively less able to cope, and more vulnerable or "thin-skulled" as the proverbial saying goes. Thus, over the years, the Titanic tragedy killed off more people than the 1,526 on the night of April 14-15, 1912. It killed people for many more years after that. |
Mike Herbold (Mikeh)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2000 - 7:37 am: | |
Philip: I'm interested in what you said about Brayton possibly committing suicide. I'd like to hear more about that. You mentioned it might not be the same Brayton. For one thing it's not clear that his name was Brayton. It could have been Bradley as listed on the ET website. In Kenneth Schultz's Catalog Sixty Five, Item 575, a great niece claims his name was Brereton. Please give more details on the 1920 incident in Calexico, California. |
Mike Herbold (Mikeh)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2000 - 8:53 am: | |
Chris: I don't know what the average number of suicides would be in any given group of 700 people during their lifetime, but 7 seems a bit high. |
Arthur Merchant (Arthur)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2000 - 4:55 pm: | |
In addition to considering the survivor suicides among the Titanic's ultimate toll, one must also consider those whose lives were shortened by the disaster, in particular those w/ pre-existing health problems.
According to the bios, relatives of Alexander Holverson's widow believed the sinking contributed to her early death. There is also Charlotte Collyer, who was consumptive (?) I believe. After losing her husband during the trip to America which was mainly to improve her health, she succumbed less than two years after the sinking. There are many instances such as these, where the Titanic could be considered a contributory factor to the premature end of some survivors, just as much as those who took their own lives.
The pattern of the suicides being almost exclusively male survivors, is mostly a statement of society at that time.
But ultimately it probably comes down to each individual's ability to handle trauma as there are cases of survivor's continuing to thrive despite further tragedies. Mrs. Henry B Harris by all accounts always maintained an upbeat attitude despite first losing her husband than most of her money and living in reduced circumstances for the rest of her life. Jennie Hanson, despite being described as in frail health at the time she lost her husband and his brother, remarried and lived 40 more years. |
Emily DeFilipps (Emily)
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2000 - 6:55 pm: | |
The mental health of survivors of the disaster is an interesting subject. I have been researching a couple from Rochester NY who survived- Ethel and Edward Beane. Mr. Beane never allowed any discussion of the Titanic in his presence while he was alive. He died at a relatively early age in a local state mental hospital. I think men who survived may have had an especially hard time
dealing with it. |
Joe Shomi (Shomi)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 6:18 am: | |
Here's an excerpt from a 1998 newspaper article about Johan Svensson, also known as "Titanic Johnson," who survived the sinking. I think it reinforces the point that the pain of the tragedy became more aggravated as years went by - - possibly explaining the psychosis of some survivors, and the many suicides among others:
"His daughter, Joy Johnson, suspects that the voices screaming from the icy waters of the Atlantic, begging to be saved, haunted him until his death in 1981. As he got older, it just seemed to come back more vividly to him., Joy Johnson says. He had nightmares all the time, it was really tragic. He always asked me, "Why was I saved when so many others were lost". |
Mike Herbold (Mikeh)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2000 - 4:49 pm: | |
Joe:
Since 6 of the 7 Titanic suicides were male and most of the 700plus survivors were female, the suicide rate seems even more astounding. Came across another passenger much affected by the tragedy == Abraham Lincoln Salomon.
Regards, Mike |
Joe Shomi (Shomi)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2000 - 3:36 pm: | |
I have a new passenger to add to the subject matter of this conversation: Robert Daniel. After the Titanic disaster, he suffered through three marriages, cirrhosis of the liver, and died at the age of 56. |
Pamela Pitts
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2000 - 5:06 pm: | |
I'm kinda new at this but I am doing a research paper on the Titanic and needed to know if Murdoch really shot himself like he did in the Titanic movie? |
Tracey McIntire (Tmcintire)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2000 - 5:37 pm: | |
Dear Pamela,
It will never be known for sure if it was Murdoch who killed himself, but the eyewitness accounts of an officer committing suicide do tend to support the fact that SOMEONE did. The other "candidates" for suicide include Chief Officer Henry Wilde and Captain Smith. I tend to think it was Murdoch though. If you would like to have a more in-depth discussion of this, please feel free to e-mail me at traceym@peta-online.org.
Sincerely, Tracey |
Rachel Boland
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2000 - 6:55 pm: | |
It probably wasn't Capt. Smith. I read in one of the many books that some of the crew who were on Collapsible B said that a man swam by and said something like "Good Lads" and they recognized his voice as that of the Capt. When they tried to get an oar to him, he didn't take it. This was more than likely Capt. Smith.
I think he was also too proud of a man to take his own life. Murdoch was ranking officer on the bridge at the time, so he would have had the most guilt. I think it was him. |
Peter Engberg-Klarström (Peter)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2000 - 12:20 pm: | |
Rachel, Tracy; one must bear in mind that very few people actually claimed to having seen a person shooting himself. Rather, they said that 'someone told me....' or something to that effect. I am not entirely convinced that this happened (and I don't believe anyone was shot, either). If someone did shoot himself, it cannot have been Murdoch, who, according to second officer Lightoller, was working with boat A up to the very last moment (and this goes for sixth officer Moody as well). Nobody really saw much of Captain Smith during the last minutes - or during the whole sinking, for that matter - I don't think he was swimming around in the water at all. Some researchers believe he had some sort of a nervous breakdown and did nothing at all that night. He was perhaps sighted at boat 8 around one o'clock, but after that?? If there was some sort of a suicide (and I don't believe there was), it sounds a lot like Wilde to me.
Peter |
Tracey McIntire (Tmcintire)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2000 - 5:48 pm: | |
Dear Peter--Actually there are over 20 eyewitness reports of an officer committing suicide. Some name the officer, but most say "an officer" or "the chief officer." We can't automatically assume they mean Wilde when they say "chief" because many did not know the officers by name or often confused Murdoch and Wilde (Murdoch was Chief Officer before Wilde was transferred from Olympic). Lightoller's account can not be relied on either as he was clearly eager to whitewash the whole incident, even to writing Murdoch's wife and telling her he "died like a man." Later in life Lightoller did admit to knowing of someone who committed suicide, but would not specify a name. Check out George Behe's web site--there is a link from this site. He has an excellent essay on the Murdoch incident. If you would like to discuss this in more depth, please feel free to e-mail me at traceym@peta-online.org. Thanks! |
Bill Wormstedt
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2000 - 1:09 am: | |
In addition to George Behe's site, you might take a look at http://home.att.net/~wormstedt/titanic/shots.html
which details many of the accounts regarding a possible suicide. |
Cindy H
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2000 - 3:57 am: | |
About suicide and Titanic... I'm on the side that Titanic is a major cause. Granted, Chris Daino (his post is above) points out that there is a "long time" between the sinking and the deaths... this is irrelevant. Research on post traumatic stress syndrome indicate that time does NOT heal all wounds but instead can fuel the fire. I do believe that the emotional impact of the sinking was a major factor in the mental stability of the surviving suicidal passengers. |
Mariano Sana
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2000 - 2:44 am: | |
The issue of Titanic-related suicide is interesting. On top of the arguments given in previous messages I'd like to advance my hypothesis as for why suicide was much more common among male survivors. Notice that suicide rates among males are always higher than among women, but in this case they are way too higher.
Let's divide male survivors in three categories:
1) Those who saved themselves by jumping in a boat or by getting a boat seat with some trick or fooling an officer. "Women and children first" was the dominant principle at the moment, and it ruled the loading of the boats. Men who survived this way might have felt that they violated this principle, given that many women died. These male survivors would have been labeled as "cowards" for using boat seats (at least by their own guilty consciences). They would have carried along this shame all through the rest of their lives, with its consequences on their mental health.
2) Those who "fought" for their lives: men who were rescued from the water (or from the overturned collapsible). I ignore if there were women rescued from the water but I'm sure the vast majority of these people were men. The trauma of having fought for life in the frozen water that night must have been in their minds for life. They were the closest ones to the desperate screams of the last ones dying in the water. Those in the collapsible must have survived by denying access to the collapsible to other people. I think there is good reason for trauma among these people as well, although they would not be suspected of cowardice.
3) Those who were saved by being assigned to a boat or allowed into a boat by an officer. These men did not fall in the water. Many (most?) of them were allowed into boats in order to row, which legitimized their inclusion, benefitting them with a clear conscience over the years.
If we turn to women, we see that virtually all of them are in category 3. If my reasoning is correct, those men who took their lives should be in categories 1 or 2 rather than 3... does anyone want to check? (remember that most of those in category 1 surely lied in their accounts to be in category 3 to the public eye).
I could add some subtleties, like assuming that those who loaded the first boats (a vast majority of women) should have been less affected as some of them didn't really experience the fear of dying (I guess many weren't sure of what was going on) and their boats soon took distance from the sinking ship. |
Joe Shomi (Shomi)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2000 - 7:32 am: | |
Mariano:
According to your categories, they break down as follows:
Thayer 2
Dodge 1
Fleet 3
Frauenthal 1
Quick 3
Niskanen 1(?)
Holverson 3
Astor 3
Davis 1(?)
(any others?) Virtually all of the women would be in 3 because none of them were rescued from the water (except for Rosa Abbot, I think, in Collapsible A?). Moreover, none of them were excluded from the boats. Your idea is interesting, but probably too constricted to properly take account of the reasons for the suicides. Further, your categorization of the suicides doesn't bring about any revelation - - because the suicides are fairly split up among the categories. I tend to agree with Arthur Merchant, who explains, above, that it comes down to how each individual handles trauma. This is something that really can't be categorized. Further, society likely had an impact on the men's deaths because society at that time would have been so unforgiving of any implication of cowardice among the survivors. |
Peter Engberg-Klarström (Peter)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2000 - 3:22 pm: | |
Dear everybody, there is one thing to consider: most male survivors simply entered starboard boats, allowed to do so without further ado. Murdoch filled his starboard boats up with anyone rather than send them away half-filled, so most men would be in category three, only those on the port side would be in category one if one divided survivors as above. Very few men had to use 'tricks' to find a seat in a lifeboat. About 100 of 131 surviving male passengers entered a starboard lifeboat, i e category 3 if you follow the reasoning above. Perhaps they felt guilty anyway, I don't know.
Peter |
Mariano Sana
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 7:48 pm: | |
Joe, thanks for taking the time to assign these survivors to the three categories I suggested.
Notice that if four of them belonged in category 1 and also four belonged in category 3, but category 3 outnumbered category 1 (probably by far), then the suicide rate in category 1 is higher than in category 3...
Anyhow, in order to test my hypothesis we would need to have a lot more suicides... Actually, I think I started my previous message thinking on mental health in general, and ended up focusing only on suicide. (In previous messages you cited some more people having severe adjustment disorders later in life, who nevertheless didn't commit suicide... in what categories would you put them?)
Finally, I agree that different people cope with trauma differently. But I would say that they faced different traumas, even if all of them were on the Titanic.
Mariano |
Joe Shomi (Shomi)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 3:14 pm: | |
Okay, Mariano, let's take another look at this:
The suicides and mental sufferings among the persons set forth above may be categorized in the following manner:
Thayer 2
Beane 1
Dodge 1
Collyer 3
Fleet 3
Svensson 1
Frauenthal 1
Salomon 1
Quick 3
Daniel 1 or 2, probably 1
Niskanen 1(?)
Holverson 3
Astor 3
Davis 1 (?)
Please keep in mind that the placement of any one person in a category is highly subjective, and in some instances, simply guesswork. Concededly, many of the problematic ones are in the no. 1 category which, as you say, is a smaller group than the others. Perhaps, but then there is Thayer's suicide, in category 2, which is an extremely small group. All of this tends to buttress your point that "they faced different traumas, even if all of them were on the Titanic."
Again, Arthur Merchant's point about the ability of some, as opposed to others, to handle the trauma is well-taken. It's fair to say that the men in category 1 all heard the screams of people in the water, and witnessed the deaths. Some, like Thayer, in category 2, were right in with the dying people. Johan Svensson ("Titanic Johnson") dreamed about the people dying in the water in later years. Afterward, male survivors were chastized for their alleged cowardice. However, some survivors, such as Masabumi Hosono (spl?), a second class passenger and category 1 person, suffered the public's indignation for many years. Hosono died naturally in 1939. Others, like Robert Daniel, sort of lived out a lie. Daniel apparently spread the, likely false, story that he swam to a lifeboat and was pulled out of the water. Fleet was a category 3 person, yet he killed himself. He may have blamed himself for not sighting the iceberg in time, etc. To resolve this, one would have to lay each of these people on a couch and psychoanalyze him or her. Thanks for the interesting exercise. |
Mariano Sana
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 11:52 pm: | |
Joe,
Thank you for all the research work, and for bringing up this interesting topic. As we seem to have reached some consensus given the available data, I guess I'll move on to some other discussions now. See you there!
Mariano |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 1:31 pm: | |
Another person to add to this list: J. Pierpont Morgan. He died less than one year after the disaster.
Morgan, American financier, steel magnate and railway baron, headed the vast syndicate, International Mercantile Marine Company, which had acquired the White Star Line. He was scheduled to travel on Titanic, but instead, went to France for a visit with his mistress. In "Titanic & Her Sisters" it says the following:
". . . Morgan . . . received the news with great shock . . . he became a recluse, to all intents and purposes withdrawing from public life . . . His health rapidly deteriorated and in March 1913 he died in Rome a broken man."
One might argue that Morgan became sick over the potentiality of huge finanical losses from the disaster. I think not. The financial loss proved to be quite minimal. More likely, Morgan lost several people he knew very well, on Titanic, and had to face the wealthy upper class's disenfranchisement, for what his ship had done to such families and individuals as Astor, Strauss, Thayer, Widener, Butt and others. |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2000 - 7:35 am: | |
With reference to the comment above: "Actually there are over 20 eyewitness reports of an officer committing suicide. Some name the officer, but most say "an officer" or "the chief officer."
According to Bill Wormstedt's site, there are only four passengers who claim to have been eyewitnesses to the event (do you have a supplementary 16 to add to the list?). Of these, Francatelli's can most likely be dismissed for the reasons given on Bill's page. The others bear more consideration.
Peter is quite correct in his comment that "one must bear in mind that very few people actually claimed to having seen a person shooting himself. Rather, they said that 'someone told me....' or something to that effect".
There seems to be a common feeling that it was somehow appropriate that Murdoch shot himself as he was on watch at the time of the disaster - it gave a dramatic closure to events. This sort of speculation is both seductive and dangerous.
The only person who was both in a position to both identify the individuals involved and see what became of them was Lightoller, and he stated that Murdoch did not shoot himself. While Lightoller's account is not beyond question, he is still the only source in the right place at the right time to provide an identification.
Note that I do not say it is impossible that Murdoch shot himself - I am not attributing the act to any individual. I'm simply resisting the certitude with which some want to identify the first officer. |
Daniel Parkes
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 4:51 am: | |
Inger -what an interesting message you have posted! Thank you for this!
Basically, you seem to cast doubt on the suicide scenario based on the lack of eyewitnesses (there are at least 8 actual eyewitnesses, plus 15/16 additional "second-hand" accounts). But remember this: considering that only a handful of the "hundreds" on the starboard side at the time of the alleged incident (c2:10am) survived to tell their story, it is remarkable that there are as many as 8 accounts. Remember that if a suicide did take place, only a handful would have observed it due to the huge number of people in such a small area (causing obstructions), the lack of lighting, the utter chaos and confusion and, importantly, that fact that each individual would have been intent on their own survival and not necessarily focusing on the events surrounding them. In other words, most of those who saw what REALLY occurred were lost with the ship. Additionally, of the 705 who survived the sinking, only a small percent were ever given the opportunity to have their full story told.
Hence, 8 plus 16 other accounts is worthy of attention. Not only this, but when one takes an indepth look into each account, the person's background, their reliability, their location... etc it reveals a startling ring of truth, rather than a media myth concocted for a drama hungry public (e.g. even a high ranking official of the White Star Line admitted that an officer or officers had possibly committed suicide).
In looking at such an issue that has unfortunately become emotional due to geographic or historical prejudice, it is important to maintain a completely unbiased attitude, a proverbial OPEN MIND. Only in this way can the facts be revealed.
On the 15th of April, 2000, a monograph on this very subject was released and will soon be made available in the form of a web-site. Look out for it....
The truth is out there. |
Daniel Parkes
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 5:24 am: | |
In addition to the response I provided to Inger's message:
A comment was made that Second Officer Lightoller was the "only person" who could conclusively rule out Murdoch as the suicide victim. However, the evidence of Colonel Archibald Gracie is far more worthy of consideration. As a military historian (with an eye for detail) who was on the forward starboard side at collapsible A up until the time the boat deck was submerged, he is a far better candidate and his evidence at the Senate Inquiry and in his book are most compelling. He even drew a diagram of the ship pin-pointing the positions of Lightoller, Murdoch and himself.
However, Lightoller, whose evidence is dubious (especially in connection with the "image" of other officers, the White Star Line and himself), was not in a position to witness exactly what occurred. While there is no reason to believe that he did not see Murdoch on the starboard side, he did not see what eventually happened to the First Officer, since he was later positioned "amidships" before diving overboard.
And, on closer inspection, Gracie's evidence is not as conclusive as it might seem either. While he is adamant in his book that Murdoch did not commit suicide, he also did not see what really happened to the First Officer, becoming surrounded by the sudden surge in the crowd (which would have obstructed any view of the real events) and moving aft.
In summary: since the bodies of Smith, Wilde and Murdoch were never recovered, it would be just as "seductive and dangerous" to "resist" any eyewitness evidence without having investigated the eyewitness accounts and the circumstantial evidence in an unprejudiced manner. It is sad when sometimes history is at the mercy of historians loaded with preconceived ideology! |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 7:35 am: | |
Hallo, Daniel!
"In looking at such an issue that has unfortunately become emotional due to geographic or historical prejudice, it is important to maintain a completely unbiased attitude, a proverbial OPEN MIND. Only in this way can the facts be revealed.
I've long attempted to dissociate myself from those who attach a stigma to the idea of suicide -my resistance to the certitude with which some identify an particular officer is based on my reading of accounts, not to personal feelings about the idea of either suicide or the individuals themselves.
I have also noted the geographic prejudices you note - but as an Australian, how do you think I line up? ;-)
As you admonish me, I certainly do keep an open mind on the issue - very open. It's one reason, as I said, that I resist the certitude with which some individuals attempt to ascribe actions to one officer in particular.
"On the 15th of April, 2000, a monograph on this very subject was released and will soon be made available in the form of a web-site. Look out for it.... "
I'll be very interested in seeing this. I'm aware of a good deal of other research that individuals have conducted which has not been made public as yet, and I have my own research and conclusions on the subject.
BTW, could you possibly name your eyewitnesses? I'd be very interested in seeing if I'm familiar with their accounts. |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 7:58 am: | |
"However, Lightoller, whose evidence is dubious (especially in connection with the "image" of other officers, the White Star Line and himself), was not in a position to witness exactly what occurred. While there is no reason to believe that he did not see Murdoch on the starboard side, he did not see what eventually happened to the First Officer, since he was later positioned "amidships" before diving overboard."
Well, not quite amidships - he said at the American inquiry that he was 'practically midships; a little to the starboard side, where I had got to' when he stepped off.
At the English Inquiry:
Q. 14047 Then tell us your last minuite or two on the ship. What did you do? - I went across to the starboard side of the officers' quarters, on the top of the officers' quarters, to see if I could do anything on the starboard side. Well, I could not.
Q. 14048 And coming over to the starboard side on the roof of the officers' quarters, could you see any other officers? - I saw the First Officer working at the falls of the starboard emergency boat, Obviously withthe intention of overhauling them and hooking on to the collapsible boat on their side.
****
Q. 14051. Were there others with him helping? - There were a number round there helping.
Q. 14052. Then what happened? - Well, she seemed to take a bit of a dive, and I just walked into the water.
As I said - very clearly - "Lightoller's account is not beyond question". However, I do believe that it merits very serious consideration.
"In summary: since the bodies of Smith, Wilde and Murdoch were never recovered, it would be just as "seductive and dangerous" to "resist" any eyewitness evidence without having investigated the eyewitness accounts and the circumstantial evidence in an unprejudiced manner. It is sad when sometimes history is at the mercy of historians loaded with preconceived ideology!"
I completely agree - and I'll assume that this is not directed at me, nor are you suggesting that I am 'loaded with preconceived ideology'.
You suggest that "Basically, you seem to cast doubt on the suicide scenario based on the lack of eyewitnesses".
Not so - if you re-read my original post, you'll see that what I was responding to was the assertion that there were some 'twenty eyewitnesses' to the alleged event. If this were so, I doubt that there would be as much controversy over it as there is today. I also clearly pointed out that there are certainly at least some accounts that do merit consideration.
You've made a very sweeping comment on 'preconceived ideology' - would you care to clarify if you believe that I am one of these individuals? I've found that, in the past, simply not jumping on the 'Murdoch did it' bandwagon has been enough to prompt individuals to assert that I'm part of a hidden agenda. This is regardless of the fact that I have also cautioned those too willing to glibly assert that it must have been Wilde. |
Daniel Parkes
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 11:50 am: | |
Hello Inger!
An Australian! Well it seems we are both exempt from any geographical bias -I used to live in Australia but am presently in New Zealand! Thank you for your comments, they are most interesting!
Please do not confuse my generalisation regarding preconceived ideology -it was not a personal reference but a general concern that I have that so many casual and professional historians very often look at history through glasses tainted by their own view of history.
Your response shows clearly that this is not the case. I am most pleased that there is someone willing to look at all the options and am intrigued by the research you have done.
Yes, Lightoller's testimony does merit serious consideration but it will not achieve any more than an obvious conclusion: he did not see what really happened to Murdoch. If he did, then he did not relate it for one reason or another. Hence, his evidence can only be used to detail Murdoch's last movements and activities, not disprove any shooting/suicide allegations.
As for the correspondent that you replied to concerning 'twenty eye-witnesses,' according to my research there are at least 24 witnesses, 8 of whom are eye-witnesses. However, just because the other witnesses did not personally see the alleged suicide does not necessarily invalidate their accounts or observations. It is a case of gaing the BIG PICTURE.
I would be most pleased to share my research with you (at last count it stands at over 150 pages) but while this message board is a good place to explore ideas and questions, there is not enough space (or time) to provide all the information.
You may e-mail me at parkesville@xtra.co.nz if you want further details. I would most enjoy an interchange of research! |
sc187451
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2000 - 5:06 am: | |
Pamela Pitts
If you're still out there, another point of view
on Murdoch's death and life.
http://www.dalbeattie.com/titanic/index.htm
I have nothing to do with this site, I just find
other sides of the story interesting and worth
looking into.
Sandie |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2000 - 7:40 am: | |
Hallo, Sandie!
The site you refer to is indeed interesting, particularly for its insight into Murdoch's personal background. A colleague and I recently met the webmaster while on a visit to Dalbeattie, and he discussed some modifications he intends to make to the site with us. As updates in the past have sometimes been made without a revision of the site as a whole, or proper 'vetting' of material, there is a need to bring some of the work on the question of Murdoch's death into line with the quality of the rest of the pages. I understand that the webmaster intends to do so.
Note that I, too, do not have any affiliation with this site. I do, however, appreciate the work that has gone into gathering biographical material, including images that you will not find elsewhere.
This is also one of the few sites that attempts to address the life of the man outside his role in the Titanic disaster. With the focus on Murdoch's death or actions during the collision, the context of his entire existence falls by the way side. I've had the privilege over the past month of travelling to areas like Liverpool and Scotland in an effort to learn more about this context. I've found that the Murdoch family, historians and researchers who have been working on the material for years, and the people of places like Dalbeattie and Kippford have been remarkably accomodating and hospitable.
Work has just begun on the background for some of the other officers such as Wilde, and I can only hope to be so fortunate in researching him as I have been with some of the other deck officers.
Daniel - I emailed you privately last night (London time). Fairly lengthy and unfocussed discourse, you'll find.
Inger |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Thursday, June 8, 2000 - 8:31 pm: | |
Thanks to Mike Herbold's research we can now add George Brereton's name (aka Bradley, Brayton) to this conversation. He apparently killed himself in 1942 with a shotgun blast. I think the record of this conversation clearly establishes that we're on to something, so many suicides, and yet so many years after the disaster. Titanic must have had something to do with these deaths. Also, it's interesting to realize that the disaster lasted for many decades, and didn't end with the sinking on April 15, 1912. |
Paul Judd
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2000 - 5:27 am: | |
Does anyone know anything about Stewardess Roberts,
as a contact address was Nottingham , born I think about 1880 and we had a family living there about this time. What was her parents names??
ctpjudd@ozemail.com.au |
MIMI FLURASE
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 11:44 am: | |
AS A MATTER OF FACT , I DON'T MEAN TO DISSAPOINT ANY ONE BUT NOT ONE OF THE TITANIC SURVIVORS COMMITED SUICIDE NOT ONE , THEY ALL DIED NATURALLY
MIMI
CHICAGO |
Bitteroot Brute
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 3:26 pm: | |
Dear MIMI FLURASE/MANOLC, so you expect us to believe what you say when youre not even sure of your own last name. And whats flurase anyway? Some kind of nasal spray? |
travisk
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 2:57 am: | |
Sorry, Mimi, but Frederick Fleet committed suicide after his wife died. |
Pat Cook
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 9:59 am: | |
Also, Washington Dodge committed suicide some five years later.
Best regards,
Cook |
Mike Herbold
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 5:36 am: | |
As did George Brereton, who shot himself and Juha Niskanen, who set fire to his cabin and then shot himself. Their death certificates verify that. |
Steve Arnold
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 12:41 pm: | |
Jack Thayer's autopsy report is included on this site, it was also a clear case of suicide. |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 4:23 pm: | |
Having read the recently updated, and excellent, biography on Quartermaster Hichens on this site, I think he should be added to this conversation. Hichens suffered from heavy drinking, apparently brought on by depression, had attempted suicide, and at one point, even attempted to kill someone else. |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 8:17 am: | |
Now, with the revelation about Quartermaster Robert Hichens, consider this: it can now be said that nearly every member of the Titanic's crew who encountered the iceberg on April 14, 1912, at 11:40 p.m., and who were the most directly responsible for the collision, died, committed suicide, or was suicidal. Under my theory they were all killed in the Titanic disaster.
1. William Murdoch, First Officer - died in sinking, possible suicide.
2. James Moody, Sixth Officer - died in sinking.
3. Frederick Fleet, lookout - committed suicide.
4. Reginald Lee, lookout - survived sinking, later fate unknown.
5. Robert Hichens, Quartermaster - suicidal.
It appears that Joseph Boxhall and Alfred Oliver, were not quite on the bridge at the time of the collision.
Thus, except for Lee, whose fate is unknown, under my "mental illness" theory the Titanic disaster may have entirely killed off the crew who were the most directly responsible for it. And the killing didn't end on April 15, 1912. It persisted for many years.
Does anyone know what happened to Reginald Lee? I know his brother, a steward, went down with the ship, because one passenger in Boat No. 5 saw Lee cover his eyes when Titanic sank. Despite losing his brother, Lee tried to keep Boat No. 5's passengers in good spirits, and continued to encourage them while awaiting Carpathia's rescue. |
Scott Blair
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 4:57 pm: | |
Joe,
According to his grandaughter the
Rev. Pat Thomas he served in WW1
went ashore after it and worked
in and around Southampton.He
told stories about the disaster
to his family. He attended the
Cunard -White Star survivors
annual dinner and died in the
1960,s, apparently quite peacefully.
Source is p123 of Gardiner/ Van der Vat
book The Riddle of the Titanic. I
think it was called the Mystery of
the Titanic in the U.S.A.
No reference is given for this
information in the book.
Hope this is some help.
Scott Blair |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 6:55 pm: | |
Scott,
As one of the contributors, above, pointed out: the "mental illness" issue depends on each individual's ability to handle trauma. I think that the incident in Boat No. 5 suggests that Lee had the ability to accept tragedy, and move on. Perhaps this is something the others lacked.
Also, as his Senate testimony indicates, Lee perhaps found that the real fault resided on others', such as the White Star Line officers who failed to provide the crow's nest with binoculars.
Nonetheless, it would be interesting to know if Lee suffered the sort of residual trauma that others like Johan Svensson ("Titanic Johnson") encountered near the end of his life (see his bio on this site).
Heretofore, the instances of suicidal behavior, and death, set forth above, have been mostly random. To me, the high incidence of it among the crew on the bridge and crows nest, however, suggests a link for it to a particular event, i.e., the collision with the ice berg and concomitantly, fault for a horrible disaster.
One of the other contributors, above, suggested a link between suicidal behavior and male passengers who got into lifeboats when women and children were left to die. Certainly, this seems to have troubled, and hounded, Dr. Washington Dodge until he committed suicide in 1919. If you read his speech to the San Francisco Commonwealth Club on May 12, 1912 (see "Links" then "JShomi's pictures" and click under "Community Links"), he tries to explain himself, at length . . . which shows he felt a lot of public pressure and condemnation. Even more telling, newspaper accounts reveal that Dodge cried while he was giving the speech.
Another high profile, public person, Robert Daniel, who apparently made up a lot of stories about having swum around and been rescued from the water, eventually died of cirrhosis of the liver.
Thanks again for your input, and again, my compliments to the people who did the fine ET piece on Robert Hichens. |
Scott Blair
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 9:16 pm: | |
Joe,
In the absence of any other material
the points you make about Lee seem
to be not unreasonable inferences.
Nowadays in the wake of disasters
large or small there is a lot more
in the way of support to deal with
any mental repercussions. Apart
from those who could afford it I
dare say most crew and passengers
just had to get on without any
professional help.That may have
contributed to any apparently
high incidence of suicidal acts
successful or not.
Social pressures must also have
had a part to play.Dodge's case
may well be an example.Certainly
the expected conduct of "leader"
figures in particular may account
for 1st class and possible crew
suicides.
There has to my knowledge been no
assessment of the mental impact of
the disaster on those involved in
a way that could draw out trends.
I wonder if our "modern" awareness
of the consequences of disaster
survival on the mind could be
brought to bear in a systematic
way on the Titanic survivors ?
Any thoughts?
By the way am I correct in
recalling that you are an
Attorney?I am a Scottish
litigation lawyer.
Scott Blair |
Phillip Gowan
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 11:16 pm: | |
Dear Joe and Scott,
Several weeks ago a young lady left a message here on ET and said she was the granddaughter of Reginald Lee, that he died in the 1960's and gave other details. I corresponded with her briefly but it became obvious that her grandfather was not the "Titanic" Reginald Robinson Lee. Since that time, Brian Meister and I were successful in tracking down the real Reginald Lee down and I've obtained his birth and death certificates. I'm in the process of doing additional research now and hope to locate living descendants over the course of the next few months. Once Brian and I have completed all of our related research we will provide the information for inclusion in Lee's biography on this site. (Both Brian and I live in the Midlands/Pee Dee region of South Carolina where research facilities are scarce and much has to be done by phone and mail).
All of the information provided by Van der Vat and all of the information provided by the "granddaughter" is wrong--none of those statements and claims bears any resemblance to the facts concerning the real guy. Joe, you can certainly include him in your list as his death (although not suicide) may have indirectly been influenced by his experience on Titanic. One source I've read states that he "died by the bottle" and although his death certificate does not indicate that, it may have been a factor nevertheless.
We'll give out more details on down the line. This is one fellow I've wanted to find for years and Brian and I are on Cloud 9 to have finally pinned it down.
My best,
Phillip |
Phillip Gowan
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2000 - 12:21 am: | |
Joe and Scott,
When I sent my previous message I was at my office and did not have the death certificate copy there. Once I got home I checked and the exact cause of death given says "natural causes, heart disease following pneumonia and pleurisy." There is information though to suggest that his death might not have been so totally from natural causes but that will remain supposition unless I can find his direct descendants.
Phillip |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2000 - 1:16 am: | |
Scott and Phil,
This is becoming really exciting . . . if you're able to confirm that Lee suffered with problems, too, we may finally have established something or other about some of these suicides. Please keep me posted, Phil.
I agree, Scott, and I have already conceded in conversations above that it's difficult, if not impossible, to draw out trends.
Like you say, economics may have been a factor. Many crew members and passengers couldn't get medical treatment. Moreover, treatment back then probably wasn't very good. For example, in Dr. Dodge's case, he had been admitted to a hospital and placed on a suicide watch for several days. On June 21, 1919, he was released. He immediately went home and shot himself. So much for treatment in 1919.
But if I recall correctly, the world became more focused on post traumatic stress disorders during and after the First World War, in connection with the treatment of soldiers who suffered "shell shock."
I'm sure our modern awareness could be brought to bear, and concededly, I don't know much about disaster traumas. After the Columbine, Colorado school killings, and in connection with recent airline disasters, children and adults were afforded professional counseling. Obviously, "modern" awareness is that mental trauma leads to more deaths. This is the one sure thing that we can learn from what happened to the survivors of the Titanic disaster.
Take care,
Joe
P.S. Scott, you're right! I'm also doing civil litigation. I would really enjoy discussing law practice with you. For example, I would like to know if the Scottish judges are as bad as the ones we have over here. Ha! I already bored the ET crowd with one of my recent war stories so let's talk offline. My email address is: jshomi@hotmail.com. |
mimi
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 10:53 am: | |
Who keeps wiping of my messages ????
Mimi |
Philip Hind
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 2:38 pm: | |
Mimi ?,
>>> Who keeps wiping of my messages ????
Me.
The tone of some of your earlier posts was not appropriate, I reserve the right to moderate this board as necessary.
The rules of this board are clearly laid out on the opening page. Fail to abide by them and you risk having your messages wiped. I encourage all users re-read those rules from time to time.
And, once again, I do ask users to use their proper and complete name and not a nickname or pseudonym and preferably with a usable email address. I cannot stop you doing so, or rather, I have not set the board so as to prevent you doing so but it remains a condition of using the board as laid down in the instuctions as well as the pop up window you will have seen on your first entering the forum.
This may all seem needlessly officious but it is sadly through bitter experience that I have made these rules. I do this in order to maintain sensible and interesting discussion and to prevent abuse of this public forum.
Phil |
Mimi
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 3:01 pm: | |
That is so unfare ,all my earlier posts were appropriate they were honest opinions and facts and worth debating compared to all that rubbish that people have written under the heading Mrs Young & Miss White
about gays and lesbians that has not been cleared
and as I have said before my real name is Mimi so deal with it ,that is the name that my parents chrisined me 34 years ago ,what about that rude Bitterroot Brute does he honestly expect us to believe that that is his real name ?????? he ought to be band from this site in my opinion
MIMI (in case no one got that) MIMI |
Philip Hind
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 3:15 pm: | |
In the words of one Titanic historian known to some of us ...
"I have spoken"
However, Mimi, I am not disputing your name but I would request that if you contact me privately I will gladly furnish you with a full personal account for the board so you can receive email updates etc.
In fact this offer is open to anyone that wants an account. |
Mimi
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 3:23 pm: | |
Thanks anyway but I can't recieve emails, I am in a public library and don't have my own computer yet
Mimi
by the way my uncle has got Eva Harts signature in one of his Titanic books is it collectable ?
MIMI |
Philip Hind
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 5:00 pm: | |
It's up to you, but you could use a hotmail account, you wouldn't need your own computer for that. |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2000 - 3:52 pm: | |
We can add seaman John Collins as a possible candidate for the subject matter of this conversation; he died in a psychiatric institution in 1941. He, like Jack Thayer, went down with the ship. Eventually, Collins was rescued from Collapsible "B." |
Arthur Merchant
| | Posted on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 3:43 pm: | |
I agree with the addition of John Collins to this thread and was about to do so myself. I was not surprised to read that he died prematurely and in a sanitarium, considering his experience during the sinking was particularly haunting and horrific even when lined up against what happened to Lightoller, Rosa Abbott and others who also survived going down with the ship.
In several accounts including his testimony, he stopped to help a steward assist a panicing mother and her two young children, and carried the infant with him as they made their way to the bow. The large wave washed them overboard and the baby was torn from his grasp. For someone of his youth (17 or 18), this had to have been a shattering experience which probably contributed to much guilty feelings about his own survival.
As an offshoot, does anyone know if he ever helped determine the identity of the steward or the unfortunate family? Edith Peacock and her two children best fit the description, though another possibility might be Alma Paulsson and two of her children. August Wennerstrom apparently said somewhere that he attempted to hold on to the two older children, so Collins might have been helping with Mrs. Paulson and the two younger ones.
Arthur |
Adrianne Lapar
| | Posted on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 4:04 pm: | |
I read on this board that many of you think that Murdoch committed suicide. Although I haven't ruled that possibility out, I would like to think he did not.
I thought it was wrong of James Cameron to show Murdoch shooting himself and Captain Smith absentmindedly and indirectly causing his own death. It gave many people the wrong impression. (I don't mean you, but people who don't know much about Titanic.)
I read a discussion similar to this one; I'm sorry but I don't remember which site it was on. Supposedly, Murdoch's family was quite upset after the sinking when newspapers wrote that Murdoch had committed suicide. They all testified that he was an honorable family man who would not committ such an act of cowardice.
As for Captain Smith, I have read a few accounts, including one in "Titanic-An Illustrated History" (Don Lynch), which say that some survivors recall seeing a man who appeared to be Smith. I believe these were the men who held on to the overturned boat. Those who were crewmembers said that they heard a voice similar to Smith's. He reportedly handed them a child and swam away. This sounds like what Rachel Boland posted earlier on this message board.
What do you all think?
ADRIANNE LAPAR |
Geoff Whitfield
| | Posted on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 6:03 pm: | |
Hello Adrianne,
It appears that Officer Wilde was one of the first to suffer the slur of suicide (which, of course, was a crime in those days). Within days of the sinking, the Liverpool Echo, which was and still is the evening newspaper in Wilde's home town of Liverpool, had printed an article making reference to his supposed suicide. Possibly an over zealous reporter had picked up on all the stories of "an officer" committing suicide and linked it either rightly or wrongly to Wilde. Wilde's family were of course infuriated by the story and demanded that the paper print a retraction, which appeared several days later. Of course, by this time the damage was done - no smoke without fire etc.! I wonder if the same story was reported regarding other Officers who lost their lives? |
George Behe
| | Posted on Saturday, September 2, 2000 - 9:07 pm: | |
Geoff wrote:
>Within days of the sinking, the Liverpool Echo, >which was and still is
>the evening newspaper in Wilde's home town of >Liverpool, had printed an
>article making reference to his supposed suicide.
Hi, Geoff!
Could you please quote the portion of the article that mentioned Wilde's suicide? I'm wondering if an eyewitness claimed to have seen Wilde's suicide or if the reporter just made a general statement 'on his own' that included Wilde's name. Also, how did the newspaper phrase the later retraction?
Thanks very much.
All my best,
George |
Geoff Whitfield
| | Posted on Sunday, September 3, 2000 - 7:35 am: | |
Hello George,
The "Echo" simply stated at the bottom of an article on the sinking that several survivors had said that "An Officer" had shot himself and that this man was believed to be Wilde. This article appeared soon after the first survivor reports were printed in the American papers. I think that it was just a case of a reporter putting Wilde's name to the supposed suicide because of the local interest.
The paper printed a retraction several days later to the effect that the allegation was completely unfounded and they very much regretted the upset caused to the late Officer's family.
The real story behind it was that Wilde's family, or more to the point, that of his late wife, carried a great deal of clout in Liverpool business circles. A quick word from them (and they appeared to be on the board of directors of virtually every large Liverpool company in some shape or form) would soon bring about a withdrawal of advertising space on which the paper depended.Also, they would not want the stigma of a suicide in the family - still a crime in those days - and, of course the ideal way for the victim's insurance company to wriggle out of paying out on the policy.
Hope you are keeping well George, give Pat our love.
Geoff |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 7:15 pm: | |
I've been checking with the Eastland Historical Society about instances of mental illness among survivors of the Eastland disaster. They indicated that there were several suicides that may be connected to the disaster. Additionally, there are curious instances of trauma related injury. For those of you who aren't familiar with the Eastland disaster, it happened when a fully loaded passenger ship tipped over alongside a Chicago dock. Women and children had gone inside to avoid inclimate weather - - thus, many of them were killed, a total of 844 persons died in a matter of a few minutes.
There are some stories of trauma related illnesses. In one instance, a survivor couldn't stand to go around corners while riding in an automobile because doing so brought back memories of the disaster.
For those of you interested in "personal accounts" of this disaster check out their site at:
http://www.eastlanddisaster.org/PersonalAccountsTable.htm
Additionally, the descriptions of people suddenly falling into the water, and having things crash down on them, other people's hands grabbing at their feet and legs, hands sticking out the water, screams and pandemonium, etc., suggest what the actual sinking of the Titanic might have been like. |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 2:40 pm: | |
This thread should really be entitled: "Survivors' post traumatic stress syndromes." Based upon Pat Cook's fine research, we can add Lawrence Beesley to this lot. Pat says:
"Amid all this, it should be said, he was never far from the shadow of Titanic . . . he simply would never go to sea again, not even to cross the English Channel. Years later, according to one daughter, the singular time the family went to the beach, Lawrence sat with his back to the water."
This is something akin to the S.S. Eastland survivor who (after that ship tipped over) hated to turn corners when riding in an automobile. |
Phillip Gowan
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 4:01 pm: | |
Hi Joe,
I have another one for you--recently tracked down Finnish passenger Eino Lindquist (even his own son had no idea what had become of him). Eino was a vagabond and never stayed in one place very long. After his last contact with his son and brother, they tried putting ads in various newspapers across the country where Eino had been known to live. But nothing ever turned up.
It turns out that he had been placed in a mental institution where he spent about a year before his death. His death certificate lists a contributory cause of death as paranoid schizophrenia. I'll send additional information on him to Phil Hind at some later date.
Phil |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 3:04 pm: | |
Thanks, Phil. I'm counting, so far, roughly 20 people in suicide/ptss category - - or 2% of the survivors. There are some emerging patterns: mostly males, high among public figures and crew members directly linked to the sinking, but it seems mainly random. Given the scant resources we have, this figure is likely to be much higher. There are two well known candidates whom I have wondered whether they should be included: Archibald Gracie, and Captain Smith. Gracie died less than one year after the disaster, from poor health, a heart attack, or something. But some people have linked his death in some manner to the disaster. Captain Smith, of course, jumped into the water when the big wave hit, a sort of suicide - by many accounts, on the evening of the sinking he acted strange, very reserved. If you count Murdoch (albeit much disputed) in this category, shouldn't Smith be counted, too? Is the difference just that one did it with a gun? I have also not counted J.P. Morgan (although I do count Bruce Ismay) in this group for several reasons: he was not on the ship, and the source from which I received information that he suffered stress and trauma is, I think, questionable. A recent, and well-known biography on J.P. Morgan which I checked out says nothing about his death resulting from agony over Titanic. A more likely scenario is that he just have got fed up with the way his nose looked. |
Inger Sheil
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 7:31 am: | |
Although Lightoller dealt publically very well emotionally with the disaster - even stressing this point in his Christian Science Article - I've always thought that the incident after the Tennis party at Netley Abbey sounded like a classic PTSD flashback.
Inger |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 3:20 pm: | |
Thanks for the feedback, Inger. Can you provide some more details on this incident? |
Scott Blair
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 4:12 pm: | |
Joe,
In summer 1913 there was a tennis party at Nikko Lodge,the Lightoller home at Netley Abbey.
Lightoller left the game and went inside to cool off.
He did not reappear and after an hour his wife went in to find him in the bath in a trance-like state.He was rigid with glazed eyes.
He seemed terrified.Help was obtained and he was put to bed.The doctor concluded he had had a shock.
Patrick Stenson, his biographer , suggests that jumping into a cold bath triggered off bad memories.
Who knows ?
Scott Blair
PS well done in your case .I will drop you an e-mail re law soon. |
Shelley Dziedzic
| | Posted on Sunday, October 1, 2000 - 4:22 am: | |
Have just worked my way into this section and have had some eyeopeners! Just a word on Washington Dodge- about 1984 or so Haas/Eaton/Findlay and I went to visit the grandson, Arthur Dodge who resides on the waterfront in Sag Harbor and were amazed to find that they (Arthur and his wife) were not aware of the details of their famous relative's demise. They went up the attic and pulled down a box of yellowed clippings and letters which they had not perused-it had been a subject"Not Discussed" as was so often the case in more genteel times! We found Arthur and his wife very gracious hosts. |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Sunday, October 1, 2000 - 3:10 pm: | |
Hi Shelley,
First, my condolences to you on your family situation. I have a few questions for you about the Captain Smith letters but that can wait. With respect to Dr. Dodge, is Arthur the son of Washington Dodge, Jr. (second wife), or of Harry Dodge (first wife)? I know that Kent Dodge, Jr., the Titanic passenger's grandson, is conducting an investigation about the events leading to his grandfather's suicide. If you check out my website (listed under "Links - general - "Titanic Story in San Francisco") you'll find out more about Washington Dodge, including links to a story about the appearance of his ghost at 840 Powell Street, where he fatally wounded himself, his speech to the Commonwealth Club, and miscellaneous other materials. I'm trying to get a picture of the Laguna Street house where he lived (it was at 2129 Laguna) in 1912. It appears to have been demolished.
I feel that, so far, we've only scratched the surface with this matter of PTSS. I'm sure that there's simply no record of a lot of the instances of PTSS trauma that survivors' suffered because people tended to be so private about mental illnesses. Additionally, it's sad that the illness was not understood very well back then, and that as a result many more people died, or suffered. My tentative plan is to eventually construct some sort of research paper out of this and post it on the ET website, such as others have done.
I'm interested in getting more San Francisco materials for my website so if you (or anyone out there for that matter) have anything from the Bay Area that you need checked out, feel free to contact me at jshomi@hotmail.com. There are also a lot of San Francisco resources listed on the website, including searchable telephone books, etc. Take care. |
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