| Author
| Message
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Charlene Vickers
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2001 - 7:33 pm: |       |
I've looked through the archives and don't see the answer to this question: where were the death certificates for the victims issued? |
Earl Chapman
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2001 - 9:18 pm: | |
The death certificates were issued in Halifax, Nova Scotia by Dr. W.D. Finn, the provincial coroner and medical examiner. The Canadian government was concerned that Nova Scotian law apply and previous arrangements had been made for Dr. Finn to be on hand at the temporary morgue set up in the Mayflower Curling Rink. This arrangement allowed Dr. Finn to issue death certificates without the need for a full and formal inquest. He was assisted by J.H. Barnstead, duputy registrar of deaths, who made out the necessary burial permits.
Earl Chapman
Montreal, Canada |
Charlene Vickers
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 2:07 am: | |
Thank you. I had wondered if the coroner had been a federal appointee at the time (before the Treaty of Westminster in 1931).
How about those who were not recovered? Were those victims' deaths registered in their home jurisdictions (or their residence at the time of death), or were they issued by the British government, since Queenstown was the last port of call? Or again, was the onus put upon the overworked (and still overworked, unfortunately) provincial coroner of N.S.?
And does anybody know the waiting time, if any, before relatives could apply for a death certificate? I know now that it's one year in Canada for both Vital Stats and most insurance companies. But what would have it been in this case, where a death occurred in international waters in 1912?
Thank you |
Geoff Whitfield
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 5:38 pm: | |
Hello All, Am I correct in thinking that death certificates are not available for those people drowned at sea, and whose bodies are not found?
It must make life very difficult for the relatives. |
Michael Findlay
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 6:11 pm: | |
Hi Geoff,
Good question. I heard that some death certificates were issued to those victims who were not found. Source? I have no idea since I have never seen one.
I would imagine that several relatives had a difficult time in settling the affairs of their loved ones without this documentation. Case in point. Mrs. Penasco could not inherit her husband's estate because their was neither a body nor a death certificate to confirm that he was deceased. Spanish law required this certification for an estate to be settled. The family was furious and despite numerous attempts to have the matter handled legally, they met a dead end. No problem. The Penasco family contacted the Spanish Consulate in Halifax, money changed hands secretly, and a death certificate suddenly appeared from Nova Scotia claiming that Victor Penasco's body had been found and was buried in Canada. Of course, this was not so but at least Mrs. Penasco was able to access her husband's estate.
Mike |
Mike Herbold
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2001 - 6:54 am: | |
Leo Marriott's book "Titanic" has photos of some of the first, second, and third class Death Certificates on pages 131-134.
Listed on the first class list, for example, are the Allison's, Thomas Andrews, J.J. Astor, Quigg Baxter, Archibald Butt, etc. Date of death for all, of course, is April 15, 1912. The place of death is listed as "about 41-16 Lat., 50-14 Long." and the cause of death for all of them is "drowning."
Some of the information is rather interesting. On the second and third class death certificate, the "Last place of Abode" is usually a city or country. But on the first class certificate, a hotel is usually given. So, J.J. Astor's is Hotel Ritz, Paris; Baxter's is the Elysee Palace Hotel, Paris; Thomas Beattie's is Hotel Majestic, Nice. |
Dave Gittins
| | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 5:08 am: | |
In Britain it was possible to get a death certified by a court. This happened in the case of Thomas Parnham Franklin. The executor of his estate obtained affidavits that stated that he had sent two letters from Titanic via Queenstown. Bruce Ismay swore that he was on the passenger list and was not on the list of survivors. His life insurance company did not oppose the application and he was certified dead.
Such commonsense was not always seen. See the sorry tale of Mrs Cardeza on this site. |
Dave Gittins
| | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 5:10 am: | |
Whoops! I meant Mrs Penasco. (Exit red faced) |
Ben Holme
| | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 10:35 am: | |
Thanks for that, Dave.
Fannklin is one of the few fist class passengers I know incredibly little about. I was interested to read about those Queenstown letters. I wonder where they're lurking now...
May I ask where you managed to dig up this info?
Best Regards,
Ben |
Dave Gittins
| | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 12:08 pm: | |
The Times June 11th, 1912. One letter was to his mother. |
Ben Holme
| | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 2:43 pm: | |
Dave - Thanks for the information. |
Megan Junghanns
Member
Username: mljocball
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 3:47 am: | |
Was there ever a death certificate issued for Clarence Moore? If there was, where would it be located(Nova Scotia?)? How would I go about contacting someone in NS that would have a copy on file?
Thanks |
Russell Ridout
Member
Username: russell
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 5, 2003 - 10:02 pm: | |
I'm researching Second Class Steward William Ridout who died in the sinking. I was told at the Family Records Centre in London that no Death Certificates were available as the Captain was lost with the Titanic. However, reading the previous posts in this thread, it looks as though some at least were issued, but perhaps not in England. Can anyone clarify please? I would like to complete William's branch on my tree if at all possible.
Many thanks. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 863
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 6, 2003 - 12:29 am: | |
Since Mr Ridout's body was never found, no standard death certificate would have been available from any source. It was possible to obtain documentary proof of death through application to a court in England, but this was not a simple process and not likely to be pursued unless evidence was needed to settle something like a high value insurance claim or the inheritance of substantial property. This was probably not the case for Mr Ridout's family. The death certificates which were issued, incidentally, gave the cause of death always as drowning, even though most of the recovered victims had died from hypothermia.
|
Russell Ridout
Member
Username: russell
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 6, 2003 - 10:55 pm: | |
Thanks Bob. I'll have to be content with his Birth Certificate. |
Pauline Aldridge
Member
Username: pauline_777
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 10:19 pm: | |
Hi To All,
I am trying to find out any information on a KATE LUNT. Her surname could also have been either any of the following:
PUGH
SPEEDY
SPEDDY
She was born sometime between the years of 1885 -1895. She was born in Edge Green/Malpas or Tilston in the area of Cheshire in England. She was on the Titanic to become a nurse in America. This is all I know about her, if anyone can help me, I would be so grateful.
Many thanks,
Pauline. |
Emma Richardson
Member
Username: emy
Post Number: 96
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 11:47 pm: | |
Hi Pauline
There is a Catherine Pugh born 1887 at Wallsey, cheshire (which is only about 30 miles from the areas you gave). She appears to be the daughter of Elizabeth Esther and Owen Edmund Pugh. Not a perfect fit but about the only one I can find! This is from the 1901 UK census index. The 1901 census is the most recent available census to us at the moment. Us family historians are biting our nails waiting for the 1911 (what there is of it) to become available in 2012. If you want to chase this link up you will have to have a look at the 1901 entry in full via www.1901census.nationalarchives.gov.uk or Ancestry.com and then buy her birth certificate if you think this is your girl. There are some websites that give details of british nurses in the early 1900's, you may be able to trace her through her training records. What have you got on her already? Where have you found the alternative surnames? |
Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1092
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 12:53 am: | |
Pauline,
There was no Kate Lunt, or Pugh, or Speedy, or Speddy on the Titanic.
Why do you believe she was a passenger? |
Gina Wheeler
Member
Username: ginag
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 10:40 pm: | |
Hi
i am new to the board so hello to everyone. It has recently come to light during my family research that my father is related to Thomas Joseph Fay, a greaser on the Titanic. I understand that his body may not have been identified. Would there have been a death certificate issued and if so where can i obtain a copy?
regards
ginag |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3496
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:31 pm: | |
Hallo Gina, and welcome to the forum. A death certificate is a legal document which gives precise details of the cause of death, after assessment by a physician. Obviously this cannot be done if the body is not available for examination, and I'm afraid that was the case with Thomas Fay.
Relatives of crew members lost at sea, however, could apply for a 'Certified Extract Relating to the Supposed Death of a Seaman', an official document which basically stated that the person in question was 'missing, believed dead.' You can see one of these here:
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/item/2261/
Any surviving records of this kind would be held at the National Archives (Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen). |
Gina Wheeler
Member
Username: ginag
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 12:05 am: | |
Thanks for that Bob, looks like thats my next port of call.
ginag |
Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 3369
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 10:39 am: | |
With the one exception of William Hoyt, all those who died were listed as "Presumed drowned". We know this was not always the case, but that was the usual cause of death given after a sinking.
I'll see if I can dig up the record for Thomas Fay
Dave Gittins
Titanic: Monument and Warning.
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html |
Gina Wheeler
Member
Username: ginag
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 5:46 pm: | |
Hi Dave
That would be brilliant if you could.
much appreciated
ginag |
Rachel Anderson
Member
Username: velma2008
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 11:58 pm: | |
Hello, I'm a new user of this forum, after having found this thread via Google. I'm writing a genealogy research guide for tracing Titanic ancestors and was wondering where a family historian would be able to obtain a copy of the 'supposed death of a seaman' certificate. I have contacted the National Archives in Kew and they have directed me to the registers of deaths of seaman held under ref BT 334. They don't appear to hold the actual certificates themselves.
Would these have been issued as a matter of course, or would they be issued at the relatives request when having to claim on estates and life assurance policies? If that's the case then I expect that one was issued for Captain Smith - that would be interesting to see.
Also, I am trying to find out where copies of the death certificates can be obtained. Expecting that this was to be from Nova Scotia, I searched on the database on their website http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/ for a small sample of names of those lost in the disaster, taken from this website, and could not find any listed. Is this because they have yet to be transcribed, or that they're not held there? I have emailed them, but they have yet to respond and my deadline is approaching rapidly!
Many thanks for your help, it's much appreciated  |
Hilary Popple
Member
Username: stafford
Post Number: 41
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 4:58 pm: | |
I'm pretty sure these certificates weren't issued as a matter of course - I have never found any evidence of one for my great-grandfather (crew member) and my grandfather always said that his father had no death certificate as his body was not found/identified. |
Rachel Anderson
Member
Username: velma2008
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 6:28 pm: | |
That's great thanks Hilary.
I've been thinking that the only copy of the certificate would have been in the possession of the next of kin, with the details on it taken from the register of the deaths of seaman. So anyone trying to get hold of one of these would have a fruitless search! They would be better off getting a copy of of their ancestor's entry in the deaths of seaman register......
Am I right in my thinking here?
Also, how detailed is the information in the register?
Many thanks again. |
Inger Sheil
Member
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3503
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 8:41 pm: | |
The Index to Marine Deaths (1891-1964) (The BT 334 class you were directed to at the NA) could also be consulted at the Family Records Centre, Rachel, and a certificate ordered (listed by name, age, vessel and page number) - I see that the FRC have transferred their operations to the NA this month. The information contained in the certificate issued includes Name of ship, Official number of vessel, Date of death, Place of death (might be latitude / longitude if lost at sea), Name and surname of deceased: John G Brew, Sex, Age, Rank, profession or occupation, Nationality, Last place of abode, Cause of death,
Passenger or member of crew, remarks.
As I recall, as most of this information was drawn from entries in the crew agreements or passenger lists and the official log, it was not issued in the cases of death during a foundering.
|
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 4056
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 8:50 pm: | |
Hallo Rachel, and welcome to the forum. The Board of Trade's Register of Deceased Passengers provided basic details of the ship (name, port of registry etc), the date and place (ie navigational position) of death, basic details of the person from the BoT Passenger List (name, gender, age, occupation, nationality, last place of abode) and cause of death. Where a ship is lost, the latter is generally standardised as 'presumed drowned'. Where a passenger dies of natural causes during a normal voyage, one of the usual range of causes will be entered. If a passenger simply disappears (usually lost overboard) the entry in the 'Cause of Death' column is 'Missing'. The Register for Deceased Seamen presumably contains the same kind of details, and is the document from which the 'certified extracts' are taken.
The death certificates prepared at Halifax would I imagine be of little use for genealogists. They would contain no more detail than the above, being based again on information from the passengers lists. Almost all of the deceased were certified as having died from drowning, and the time and place of death would of course be the same for all. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 4057
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 8:55 pm: | |
Excuse any repetition! Inger posted while I was still typing. :-) |
Inger Sheil
Member
Username: isheil
Post Number: 3504
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 8:58 pm: | |
Bob, do you know their location? I know the NA has the "Returns of number of deaths (at Sea or ashore and supposed deaths at sea) notified to the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen. (and attached files)" covering 1941 - 1949 in MT 9/4768, but don't seem to see the previous years in the catalogue. Haven't checked the Maritime Museum of Newfoundland yet, but I would have assumed these records remained in the UK? |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 4058
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 9:32 pm: | |
Inger, I couldn't tell you offhand where the registers have ended up now, as it's been years since I was last looking for them. Part of the problem, of course, is that the original titles like 'Register of Deceased Passengers' (which was current in 1912) may be submerged within later and more comprehensive databases with different names. If you have contact with her, Debbie Beavis is very knowledgable in this area, though even she believes it to be 'a tricky subject', especially the distinction between registration and certification of deaths. It's what Lester Mitcham might call a 'Panadol area'! :-) |
Rachel Anderson
Member
Username: velma2008
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 10:46 am: | |
Thank you Bob & Inger, that certainly answers my question about these supposed death of a seaman certificates.
Even though family historians probably wouldn't glean anymore information from the death certificates then they already know, I think they would like to obtain a copy for purely historical reasons. Am I right in thinking that they can be obtained from https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ ?
The reason I ask is because I did a search for Astor, John Jacob, knowing that his body was recovered and identified, and got no results. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 4060
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 12:25 pm: | |
I tried the names of the Canadian victims and couldn't find them either. I imagine the problem is that the search engine looks only at the registers of people who died in Nova Scotia. The Titanic victims were dead on arrival, so likely to be recorded in a special register. But you're probably looking in the right place (they certainly have the original medical examiner's records), so hopefully you'll get a helpful reply from the archivists. Make it clear that you're interested in images of the original documents (if such exist), as a newly typed 'copy' of the data will tell you nothing you don't already know or can easily find elsewhere. |
Rachel Anderson
Member
Username: velma2008
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 2:09 pm: | |
That's great thanks Bob, hopefully they'll respond soon |
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