| Author |
Message |
    
Beverly J. Crowder
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 1:42 am: | 
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I have that same 1911 postcard! It is repro of course.
Great pic Randy!
Cheerio,
B |
Shelley Dziedzic
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 2:04 am: |
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The Victorian and Edwardian Ladies League (VELL) has a unique website featuring all aspects of things we love and discuss on the Gilded Age threads. It will take an hour to explore it all. You may choose a name and become a "lady" -have a look!
http://www.flinc.net/vell/vell.htm |
Ashley Regan
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 3:30 pm: |
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Good Morning Ladies and Gents,
I find this thread very much fun to read and I actually have some old dresses from the period (see profile for one). Is there like a book of styles about the fashions for 1912 or do you just need to look at the whole period for some idea of what was wearable then? Probbaly adumb question, sorry:-)
Bye
Ashley Regan |
Shelley Dziedzic
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 4:22 pm: |
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Ashley- bless your little heart- there are NO dumb questions and you have come to the RIGHT place! I see no photo of you on your profile and am desolated! Phil- our photo thingie is broken!! Come to the aid of your ladies in distress! Now- to get you started you shall wallow in ecstacy at this website- pack a lunch, you shall be here for 4 hours-
http://www.costumes.org/pages/1900links.htm
I shall make a reading list-start with The Way We Wore. Oooh- a kindred spirit- am SQUIRMING with delight. Wait till you meet Randy, Robert, and Kris- now- off too the salon for a fitting Cherie!
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Ashley Regan
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 5:00 pm: |
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Hi Shelley,
So sweet of you to be so helpful! I added my picture to the profile again, I guess it didn't take the first time, hope its not too vain (yipes!). I'll check the wesite out too, when I get home I'm at school now in the Library. Thanks again:-)
Bye
Ashley Regan |
Shelley Dziedzic
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 5:10 pm: |
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You ARE divine my dear- Lady Duff-Gordon, Lizzie Borden and you and I(bottled) are ALL red-heads with FLAIR- what a scrumptious dress you have on too! We shall have to get you into the new Simplicity pattern of Titanic Rose's Jump Dress! I see a 1912 Fashion Show for ET coming soon- I shall be OLD Rose,(not a stretch) Darling! |
Shelley Dziedzic
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 5:48 pm: |
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Kris- Monsieur Randy must still be in Paris viewing the FALL COLLECTIONS so I shall just say there were a number of styles in headgear. The huge cartwheel HAD reached its zenith to be sure. WWI gave the death knell to outrageous fashion frivolity for a time. Cloches came in with the shorter bobbed hair. Those chignons and high-styles of earlier on would never have fit under one. Cloche is French for "bell" of course- which is exactly the shape. Here are some charming examples of toques, and cartwheels, and other dear smaller-brims suited for other occasions. The straw boater was still around for both sexes for rustic outdoor pursuits-especially for young girls whose hair was still "down". Hope the link will work- this is a marvelous site full of goodies.
http://www.marquise.de/themes/hut/hut3.shtml |
Shelley Dziedzic
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 5:57 pm: |
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Forgot to mention to CLICK on those text lines preceding the photo thumbnails in that site above- for wonderful close-ups of the thumbnails- you can see so much detail. The 1912 hats you will note had roomy crowns to accommodate hair. Hatpins were a must too. They are very collectible now and there is a HATPIN society. I have a sweet Bavarian china hatpin holder. Let me know if you would like one too-repros are about $14. |
Shelley Dziedzic
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 6:03 pm: |
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The American Hatpin Society is to be found- along with articles at:
http://www.collectoronline.com/AHS/
there is a British version but their link has been down for a long time. Another good one is
http://members.aol.com/frankie854/ |
Ashley Regan
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 9:35 pm: |
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Wow, what a fabulous website on costumes oh thankyou Shelly! I just browsed it quickly but will be spending much more time in there when I get home from school. Thanks also for your sweet compliments on moi photo and outfit. I love to dress up for this period (and others like Greek stuff) I guess I'm just a natural ham actor.
Bye
Ashley Regan |
Randy B. Bigham
| | Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 7:39 am: |
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All,
Shell has listed some great inner-links here to two of the best sites on the web concerning historic costume - "La Couturiere Parisienne"(home pg: http://www.marquise.de/) and "The Costumer's Manifesto" (home pg: http://www.costumes.org/), but here are three others:
Sense and Sensibility Clothing (http://www.sensibility.com/)
Reforming Fashion
(http://www.hec.ohio-state.edu/cts/collect/buckel/Reforming_Fashion/Impact_of_dress_reform_on_fashio.htm)
and
A Century of Fashion
(http://www.costumes.org/pages/usitt1.htm)
Randy |
Randy B. Bigham
| | Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 7:44 am: |
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another try here for the last link -
A Century of Fashion
(http://www.costumes.org/pages/usitt1.htm) |
Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 124
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 3:08 am: |
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Well, with all these wonderful links, I see how I am going to spend my evening...possibly into my morning, also!
Shelley-
Ah! the murderous hatpins! I recall hearing somewhere that on windy days, the hats would flop and sway anchored by these pins, yet pull the poor dear's hair at the ROOTS! Ouch!
Speaking of murderous, In Agatha Christie's Tuppence & Tommy mystery, I believe it was "Murder on the Links", there was talk about hatpins. The murder victim was stabbed by one, and everyone didn't bother questioning it...except for lovely Tuppence! Written in 1929, the character of Tuppence commented that hatpins just weren't used much- a stereotypical woman's weapon- so...well, I won't give it away! Saw the shows on "Mystery!" years ago, for the programs and Edward Gorey's fantastic titles!
Ashley- hello!
Yes- the influence of the Grecian on Edwardian dress! Now, not to confuse matters, but I have also noticed a Medieval carry-to regarding 1910's dresses...the mentioned jumper style comes to mind, judging from the illuminations from, oh say the 14th and 15th cen. Sorry I can't give you much more information, only developing the theory myself. "'Ham'actor"? forgetaboutit! Call it Confidence!
Randy-
I'll refrain from asking "how do you find this stuff?!" and just simply be greedy and enjoy what you share! Hope all is well.
All take care-
Kris
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Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Username: shelley
Post Number: 652
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 8:39 pm: |
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Fashionably late with the response mes amis! KRIS, yes, I saw those Tuppence and Tommy episodes- and worship Francesca Annis- (finally saw her in the flesh in Lady Windemere's Fan in London)- Regarding medieval influence- yes indeed have seen a Lucile wedding gown last Wednesday, and heard of another -BOTH with Medieval lines. Here is the Simplicity pattern Ashley- very simple to make- one 20 inch back zipper- you would be a delectable little morsel in either. I am making the jump dress for Ottawa in dusty aubergine-with the black lace-suitable for a old society matron! Yes- I DID just buy one of those silly Coeur de la mer pendants too!  |
Ashley Regan
Member
Username: ashley
Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 2:16 pm: |
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Oh how pretty! Shelley did I ever thank you for those fashion links? They were smashing, I just need time to make a new outfit for the period. I buy antique clothing items and accessories when I fnd something nice at a shop or auction.
I jave a nice little collection of Hobbe jewelry I'm not sure what period it fits in with though. The pieces are quite colectable and I wear them with modern clothes too.
Maybe I'll post some of my ld pictures of costumes I wore here too.
Ashley |
Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Username: shelley
Post Number: 653
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 11:44 pm: |
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Hobe Jewelry is late Victorian-the company being founded in Paris by Jacques Hobe in 1887. He used the fine jewelry upscale design techniques with affordable semi-precious and faux stones in non-precious metal settings. The "costume" jewelry was much in vogue in Titanic times, right into World War I, and features historic designs and brightly- colored, LUSCIOUS stones. It was a popular choice for showgirls (including Ziegfeld dollies) and ladies that just wanted to LOOK like a million. My fav site for these gems is a vintage gem dealer called Morning Glory. Hope the link works- feast your eyes!
http://www.morninggl oryantiques.com/Jewe lChatHobe.html
By the way- the company is STILL in business! |
Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Username: shelley
Post Number: 654
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 11:56 pm: |
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If the Hobe site is not accessible on your service, here is an example-these are about WWI vintage. Son Bill came over from Paris and started the American branch, which is run by grandson James today.  |
Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Username: shelley
Post Number: 655
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 12:05 am: |
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Left out an important letter-the above is WWII- 40's vintage! Titanic era would look like this filigree brooch and bangle bracelet (1910) 
Both Hobe. |
Ashley Regan
Member
Username: ashley
Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 2:09 am: |
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Wow Shelly! Great to hear their still in business because I have a set with earrings and necklace that needs repair and nobody will do it for me. Maybe I can take it to Paris next time and they can restore it for me. Oh Boy! Thanks so much sweetie I,m sooo happy.
Ashley |
Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 134
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 1, 2002 - 2:25 am: |
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Well, so much exquisite refinement appears to be happening, I fear to be a bumbling ox with my question...but here goes- shield the crystal!
I have noticed, regarding Edwardian earrings, that the dangle, or drop, style seems to be of French origin- as opposed to the smaller styles I think were more common in the U.K. and U.S. The examples I think of pass the jawline (posture, now!). Is this just another example of extreme French styling; or simply an option that was out there? I do know of the "drop-pendant" style of necklaces (almost, dare I say, Rosary-esque), that seem to have been popular in the early 1920's...but of course could easily been in vogue a decade or so before. Is this whole drop-dangle style an Edwardian/Anglo-Am. manifestation...or do I just have paste in my eye?!
OK, I'll lumber off...Ooops! Sorry about the pier mirror!
Kris~ |
Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Username: shelley
Post Number: 658
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 1, 2002 - 5:06 am: |
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Oh Kris- you have opened up a treasure trove here! Earring history is fascinating and goes back to Genesis (Chapter 24: 22, 30)and BEFORE. Romans put pearl drops on statues of Venus- Isabella bugged Columbus to keep a look-out for pearls in his travels to the New World, Napoleon gave Josie faboo pearl danglers which are still in the Louvre under guard. England finally got into the pearl drops and choker act with Elizabeth I, Of course the ancient Britons had been banging earrings and jewelry out of metals a long time before. It was not until the 14th century that jewelmakers learned to cut facets in stones. Naturally as trade increased, and paintings of ladies in earrings were seen widely, the fad took hold. Pearls on velvet bows & pear-shaped pearl drops were the all- time favorites 16-18th century in civilized Europe. Our notion of them appears first in early 16th century Italy- with the pearl drop and and strands, and pendants of pearls seen on men and women. 1900's brought Lalique and the Art Nouveau fluid lines and nature flora and fauna into vogue- below are some Edwardian examples. Now- on to parures and pendants!  |
Tracy Smith
Member
Username: tracy
Post Number: 803
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, May 2, 2002 - 1:57 am: |
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Didn't Lalique also do Art Deco stuff too? |
Shelley Dziedzic
Member
Username: shelley
Post Number: 660
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 2, 2002 - 3:16 pm: |
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Deco-yes indeed! The lovely Normandie boasted Lalique designs- in fact the refit of her diningroom Lalique light columns as she was becoming a troop carrier was the cause of her untimely demise when a spark from a torch ignited Kapok-filled life vests stored on the floor. She was called the Ship of Light- and was a Deco Delight. Two postcards of her- she was a beauty-far sleeker than the two Cunard Queens.  |
Tracy Smith
Member
Username: tracy
Post Number: 804
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, May 2, 2002 - 11:43 pm: |
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I'm quite familiar with the Normandie. In fact, it is my favorite liner after the Titanic, precisely because of all the beautiful Art Deco that was aboard.
Thanks for the pictures, Shelley. |
Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 137
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, May 4, 2002 - 4:53 am: |
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AAAHHH!!! Shrieking here, Shelley, with recognistion of the "Normandie" pic; I have that as a framed poster down my hallway! Too funny.
Can't thank you enough for your wonderful "drop" in on history lesson...of course, should I even be suprised?! Now, let me indulge here: will lead into something, I promise! There are a pair of earrings that are heirloom in my family, part of my Grandmother's wedding trousseu- diamonds, small, set in white gold, forming a tear-drop that dangle from a diamond knob that affixes to the lobe. Now, dangling Inside this tear formation? But of course! A tear-cut diamond! I have to say, they are beautiful...large enough to see the detail, but not too large where it would trespass on the vulgar side. What gets me, really, is the brilliance of said stones- like miniature rainbows. So, here is an odd question: Mining. My Grandmother was married, recieved earrings, in Poland in 1938. Close enough to the Siberian diamond mines- which from my understanding produce high clarity stones (perma frost action or something), yet since a year after my Grandmother's wedding- were only available through dangerous smuggling, if at all. I know many stones, not just diamonds, are mined in South Africa, and are what is most on the market today. However, in pre-war(s), I wonder of the different availability of gems, if more rare and costly, or increase accesibility? Oh, I know...how weird a question, just something that got me going.
Well, Sparkle on now!
Kris |
Randy B. Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 850
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 4, 2002 - 5:43 am: |
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Hey Kris,
Good to "see" you again. And great talking to you recently. You are probably right about your grandmother's diamonds. Perhaps our resident jewelry experts can help. Shelley will be back in a few days. She's whooping it up out of town right now.
Well, not to change the subject entirely but since I haven't said "Lucile" on this site in a while, I thought I'd do that first (see above!) and add some pictures.
First off here's an example of Lucile lingerie from her Spring 1916 New York collection. This little affair is what was called a "combination," a camisole and underdrawers in one. Of course Lucile has put her characteristic touches to the garment by making it in filmy pastel materials and adding her signature silk flowers. The coat is ermine. The model is Phyllis Francatelli, sister of Lucile's secretary Laura Mabel Francatelli.
(Courtesy The Fashion Institute of Technology) |
Randy B. Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 851
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 4, 2002 - 6:05 am: |
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And here's a Lucile watercolor sketch for an afternoon gown from her Autumn 1915 New York collection:
(Courtesy The Fashion Institute of Technology) |
Randy B. Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 852
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 4, 2002 - 6:17 am: |
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Here's an interesting site Kris. Maybe these young men's grandpas mined your grandma's diamonds!
http://www.miningand construction.com/fea t/feat44.htm |
Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 138
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 7, 2002 - 2:44 am: |
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Randy!
Good to see you back, yourself! And of course, dear Lucile is ALWAYS welcome...I think, with this thread, in a satelite-bouncing, cosmic (no, I won't leave Sir out of this !) kind of way, Lucile is hovering around, in a lovely "Queen of Romania" ensemble, sort of guideing us gingerly on...or maybe it's the Siberian miners!!! (thank you; btw!).
I think it interesting that you shared the Lucile plates of the time of another disaster at sea 85 years later: Lusitania.
Now, with the "combinations", I can't tell in the illustration, were they the "envelope" (flap at back-bottom buttoned up in front) style? Actually quite practical for the time, yet I have only seen examples from 1915 on. Did that style exist before?
Speaking of 1915, wasn't that when Lucile had a design or two featured in Sears? I have a Dover publication: 1909 to 1920 with examples...here, let me get it-
Whoops! Sorry- It was Gimbel's (1915) that featured Lucile's "Reefer" suit (reefer?! hmm... maybe that explains Lucile's flowerey language style! Oh- just kidding!). Although, my before mentioned Sears book, in the introduction by JoAnne Olian mentions Lucile, along with Irene Castle, and (grr! oh, I know...) Poiret, in the same sentence(!), as being the chief influence in, not just fashion in general, but also the clothes (and layout of the catalog) of which Sears offered in 1914. Which says to me, as far as Lucile is concerned, that her influence was not just for the couture elite...but went further into the psyche of everyday people. Bravo, L.!
Well, I'm going to bounce myself over to the Lucile Thread to see what Madame Shelley has been up to!
Take care!
Kris
(Reefer?!...just can't get that out of my head! Ha Ha!) |
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 861
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 7, 2002 - 4:05 am: |
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Kris,
Bless you! And it was a conscious decision to launch the Lucile site at this time of the anniversary of the Lusitania tragedy. She loved the Lusitania, traveling on her many times. She called it in letters home the "Luciletania." It was just her sort. Fast and fancy!
She was also (if you saw an earlier thread) one of several passengers who were booked on the Lusy on her fatal last trip. Lucile fell seriously ill a few days before sailing and she cancelled her trip. I was saying to Eric Sauder (who lives and breathes Lusitania you know)that had her collapse happened on board ship she would have either died before the sinking or been in too frail a shape to have made it up on deck on May 7. Can you imagine that story? To survive the Titanic only to drown on the Lusitania would have been a weird thing indeed.
And I believe its 87 years ago my pet.
As to "combinations" - yes they existed before the teens. Not sure when they became prevalent. 1900ish I'd think.
I see you are aware of Lucile's "reefer" suit! I never thought about the name but you may well be right about that. She was a very modern gal! The suit Gimbel's carried is most likely one purchased from Lucile's Spring 1915 wholesale collection. Her Sears, Roebuck line came out in Fall 1916 and carried through Summer 1917.
You are very right about Lucile's importance extending beyond haute couture. It was the subject of some consternation in the rag trade at the time. Many couturiers felt Lucile was denigrading the world of high fashion by appealing to the masses through wholesale and mail-order deals. Lucile was very ahead of her time in this as in other areas of the fashion biz.
Yes, do go over and see Shelley's sweet site. I am very proud of it and glad people seem to be enjoying it, even if most are indulging secretly!
My best,
Randy
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Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 141
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 8, 2002 - 2:13 am: |
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Ugh! Yet another faux-pax...eighty-SE VEN! years. Well, never was adroit in the math dept. Sorry.
Re: Lucile and "the masses", reminds me of an article in the Wall Street J. a couple of weeks back about LVMH purchasing Donna Karan. Seems LVMH, upon learning (to their horror!) DK-DKNY was being sold at bargain establishments, LVMH is now in the process of polishing off the tarnish of Ms. D. I say all this because I sort of equate Donna as a modern counterpart to Lucile. Could be dead wrong...just a little "the more things change..." game I have.
Enjoy Shelley's and your collaboration very much, of course! Now as for those "indulging secretly", well, unfortunately I discovered some are not secret enough! Oh! Was I being nasty? ;)
Ah well- take care my friend
Kris |
Tracy Smith
Member
Username: tracy
Post Number: 820
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 8, 2002 - 2:39 am: |
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If Lucile were alive today, can you imagine her selling her creations on Ebay? I can't. |
Kyrila Scully
Member
Username: childstar413
Post Number: 619
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 8, 2002 - 11:34 am: |
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No, but I could see her at war with Joan Rivers, who thinks she's such a fashion maven herself. Saw JR last night on Extra, she looked like a stuffed cabbage. Did you catch that, Randy?
(By the way, did you get my pictures?)
Kyrila |
Tracy Smith
Member
Username: tracy
Post Number: 822
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 8, 2002 - 3:30 pm: |
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I can't stand Joan Rivers, never could. I couldn't stand the "fat jokes" she always slung at Elizabeth Taylor. My dream has always been to be a heckler in one of her audiences and belt out a few thin jokes at her.
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Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 865
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 8, 2002 - 7:50 pm: |
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Well, if Lucile were out and about in our time (and what an old crow she'd be - over 130 years of age!!!), she probably would not be on eBay but I bet she'd help class up the Home Shopping Network. And yes she'd be giving Joan Rivers a run for her money as a fashion critic. Lucile would carve Rivers up like a Xmas turkey!
Of course I'm sure Lucile would still be at the top of the high-fashion game with an exclusive couture studio, just as before, dressing society gals and stars, but in the economy of today and with the more practical lifestyles everyone leads, most of her business would be in the various lower-priced "bridge lines." She virtually pioneered the field of affordable designer-wear so she would just be picking up where she left off.
Oh, and today she'd have a fragrance - no designer now can avoid that. I wonder what it would be called? "Lucile Eau de Parfum?" No, too predictable. What about just "Chiffon" by Lucile?
Like the Lancome ads, it could just be "Lucile Paris." Elizabeth Arden has "Red Door," Lucile could have "Gray Salon."
Randy |
Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 143
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 3:48 am: |
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Alright, here's my Madison Ave. spin on Lucile's contemporary career: at first I thought of, for a parfum title, "Gray Chiffon"... but then I thought that sounded too much like a brand of mustard. Thinking of Lucile's signature floral cluster motif...."Cluster"? Or in French: "Faisceau"? Cluster in French also can be "Bouquet", so...I know: Kris- don't quit the day job!
Actually, with the pseudo-neo-romantism that is happening in fashion recently, I think Lucile would be quite in her element. What she could do for a ruffled peasant blouse!
Now the SHAPE of the bottle....
OK! I'll go now!
Kris |
Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 160
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 4:18 am: |
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Good day to all~
Well, here I am again with a few bits of "pensee d'pesant", that I hope is better than my French!
Randy has enlightened me on Edith R's foray into her own fashion business...of which I am most intrigued! Please, my dear fellow, tell what you can!
Now, getting back to what was started at another thread that I think would be best if resumed here. There has been some talk of the transitional aspects during the 1910-20 time frame regarding dress, namely dress lengths. (I should say here that those involved, please! by all means chime in here...) And the influences thereof.
Now, for me, what I find interesting is the emphasis, or rather de-emphasis, of not only skirts, but the female form altogether that was taking shape(less?) at this time.
When we look at the 1910-20 time, we always remember the influence of WWI gashed in between. And that war has always been a sort of epicenter of the drastic changes that happened in ,yes, society in general, but I'll try to narrow this down to a study in costume. I have thought that the war was more of an escalator rather that a sudden change-engine of early 20th century dictates. Think of the S curved, pidgeon-bloused, rather matronly ideal of say-1902, vs. the narrowing down of silhoette in 1912...to the lithe, nymphy look of '22. I think a youthful ideal has been always in place: today in the fashion mags., but also back then...just that the "young" and "thin" were not always considered interchangable. The whole "thin is in" concept has been in the works long before Twiggy!
When we think of the boyish lines of the 20's, I have to to think of the designs of some designers (Poiret, for one, but of course not only) who were exhibiting a streamlined version of form by the 1900's. Bobbed hair (I say "bobbed", because that is what we are used to today. Short hair was adopted by many a woman long before the Flappers: I have heard a reference of the "Castle Clip", after Irene Castle, in 1917) gives a woman a girlish look as opposed to mountains of hair. The 18th cen. portraits of be-wigged...anyone, always appear to be much older than what they were. And we know of the de-emphasis of the bust, which gives the appearance of a, almost adrodgenous look, or nymph/fairy thing. This might have something to do with the "Oriental", exotic influence...like the Geisha: who by tradition were quite young.
One thing I noticed about the waist and hips is that either a high, or Empire waist...and the low, slung around the hip... "definition", attempts to eradicate the actual waist itself! Both were characteristics of this said time frame I speak of. So for all the talk of freedom in movement, or following natual lines, it appears to be just another, yes- simplified, alteration of form.
And, dear Ladies, lest you think I'm picking you apart, I do want to add than men have suffered the same fate of "fading" at this time. Remember the long haired, big bearded, portly Gentleman that was the fashion of, let's say 1870 to 1900? Well, guess what- he gave way to a thin, svelte, clean-shaven youngster of an ideal that transformed into some kind of G.I. Joe wannabe. Young girls of today are reported of by the tons of suffering from eating disorders, yet I can tell you a great many of sons are dangering themselves with the use of steriods and other "weight gain" schemes to achieve a Greek God shape. Men don't usually talk of these matters...well, publicly anyway. The battle of the sexes, in any era, has many fronts.
Look, I don't want to say this is the end-all...tear me apart! It is only some thoughts and observations I collected over time and would love some feedback... I do not think in a vacuum, nor do I wish to!
Take care~
Kris |
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 896
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 6:46 am: |
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Kris,
My but you are up to much fashion prattle down here!
Let me address some of your points if I am able to decipher them. You seem a bit disjointed my friend. Perhaps you watched a mind-numbingly funny AbFab episode just before posting tonight! Just kidding!
As to Edith R's fashion designs, I will save that for the article on her I'm hoping will actually someday see the light.
On the gradual streamlining of womens dresses, I would not say they were shapeless before the 20s. By 1908 the high waist was "in" so the line was very tubular with details such as tunics and panels lending a long, narrow effect even before skirts themselves began tapering at the hem which was only beginning just before 1910.
Waists remained high through the end of the war, with the exception of Balkan type blouses which came in around 1912-14; these were worn outside the skirt, instead of tucked into it, and thus presaged the dropped-waist look of the flapper era to come.
In keeping with the ideals of practicality and economy that came about with the onset of war, women's street dresses, suit-coats, jackets, and overcoats did reflect in their loose, boxy shapes a masculine, militaristic aesthetic, which certainly led the way for more comfortable clothes.
By the end of the war, fashion was reverting to pre-war glamour with slinky skirts (replacing the full ones that came into style in 1914). The essential difference in the new modes were their indeterminate waistlines and their abbreviated hems. A dress with a high sash might also have a band across the hip or a bit of a panel effect or pannier accenting the hip. Some dresses had drop waists already. Others were marked by belts at the normal waist. There was just no real rule as to the placement of the waistline. Designers couldn't agree and there was really no concensus on it till 1920-1921 when almost all the couture collections began showing the long-waisted frock.
The fashion for bobbed hair, by the way, started as early as 1910 when several avant-garde French women cropped off their hair. It did not gain acceptance, though, until dancer Irene Castle cut her hair in 1913. By the end of the war it had caught on with the ultra-fashionable but average women were not bobbing their hair in great numbers until the early to mid 1920s.
I'm getting bleary-eyed its so late, and am afraid I too may start rambling () so I'm going to sign off and worry about fashion some other day!
Randy |
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 909
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 3:13 am: |
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Lady Duff doin' her stuff
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Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 165
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 2:42 am: |
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Randy-
Ok- I promise not to ramble! Guess I was trying to cram too much information in a "nutshell" package...and failed! I'll narrow down later...
I must ask, is that a model Lucile is fitting, i.e. a pub. shot, or could it be (gulp!) a famous person! Love L's pocket...did she utilise the pocket, or, I don't know what they're called...a wrist pin-cusion thing (?) to keep pins, tape, thimbles, etc., when working?
Your discombobulated pal-
Kris |
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 912
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 3:05 am: |
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Kris,
First of all, scroll down to see your birthday greetings from some of your old pals!
As to the picture of Lucy - yes that's a model with her, or as they used to say, a mannequin. Oh, and Lucy WAS the famous person in the pic, thank you very much! A celeb client would have taken the focus off Madame and she wouldn't have handled that well! I don't know which of her models it is - only that its not one of her regulars since by now I've seen photos of them from almost every angle. Well not EVERY angle!
The pocket in her skirt? Yes, I'm sure it's a real one. She believed in practical clothes for everyday wear. Dress like a diva in the evening and for special occasions, was her philosophy but dress sensibly day-to-day.
When Lucy worked on designs, pinning and draping, she generally had an assistant who held her pins and handed them to her as she needed them. When she dropped them, THEY picked them up! And there was no shortage of aspiring designers anxious to pick up her pins; for many it paid off - Molyneux, Hartnell, Banton, Greer, etc.
Randy |
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 919
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 6:30 pm: |
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Some representative 1912 fashions - all images courtesy of http://www.costumes.org :
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Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 920
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 6:50 pm: |
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Fashions for formal afternoon wear, illustrated by Harrison Fisher for "Elite Styles" magazine, July 1912:
1912 ladies' tailored street wear:
COURTESY: http://www.costumes.org
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Kate Bortner
Member
Username: katebort
Post Number: 360
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 7:12 pm: |
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Randy I could spend days on that website. Thanks again for the link.
-kate "who misses talking to you" bortner |
Tracy Smith
Member
Username: tracy
Post Number: 902
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 8:37 pm: |
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Thanks for the link, Randy. I agree with Kate; that website could keep me busy and fascinated for quite some time. |
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 933
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 8:45 pm: |
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Ah, the tyranny of fashion:
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Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 934
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 8:49 pm: |
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Priorities
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Kris Muhvic
Member
Username: kmuhvic
Post Number: 178
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 4:33 am: |
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HaHa!
You kooky boy...those are great! Parodies are actually a fantastic glimpse into the reality of not just fashion, but all aspects of day-to-day living. There was one where two hobble-skirted ladies were trying to make the train; one was struggling to run, whereas the other was hopping like a kangaroo! Hopping one said to friend: "You'll never make the train if you try to RUN!"...or something like that...
Oh well, keep 'em going Randy!
yours- K~ |
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 1019
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 11:30 am: |
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In the spring of 1912 a new operetta composed by Franz Lehar hit the London stage. The star was Gertie Millar. The gowns (big surprise!) were by Lucile:
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Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 1020
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 11:35 am: |
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Here's Gertie in Lucile's gipsy-inspired suit and cape:
And a girl wasn't modern in 1912 if she didn't smoke a ciggie!
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