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Message |
    
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 152
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 7, 2006 - 9:56 pm: | 
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I am not sure if this has been brought up before or if its a redundant topic. But i would like to know what others think about the fates of the 4 first class women to perish. My personal opinion is Mrs. Allison was left in an impossible situation by Alice Cleaver. Being a mere 25 with a little girl at her side and a missing baby boy broke down and with a mothers love spent her vital survival time looking for her son until it was too late. Mrs. Strauss fate seems fairly clear as to my knowledge no evidence has come up to go against her not wanting to leave Isador. I see no reason to not believe Edith Evans gave up her seat to Mrs. Brown with children at home. Ms. Isham is covered by a vail of mystery but she could have possibly being heavier woman suffered heart problems and passed away on Titanic and no one made a note of it or maybe they did but the records went down with the ship. These are my opinions/ best guesses. I am interested in hearing others.
Grant Woollacott
Bless the poor Allisons
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Joćo Carlos Pereira Martins
Member
Username: keen_on_titanic
Post Number: 410
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 8, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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Hey Grant!
All fates of this four women have a mystery shadow, but it's this what make them interesting. First of all, I would like to refer the actions of Bessie Allison. Many blame her for not putting Lorraine on a boat, provoking her unnecessary death. Well, she didn't know if her son was well and as any passengers she probably didn't trust the safety of lifeboats. Who could assure her that the little boats would resist and save her daughter's life? Personally,I think she was afraid to lose her daughter and then not find her son either.
Regarding Mrs. Strauss, I'm sure she had plenty of opportunities to enter a lifeboat safely and there's no reason not to trust the testimonies. What else could have it been? I don't imagine a gentlemen like Mr. Strauss refusing her wife to board a boat. Of course both of them could have been saved if they had gone to the right side of the ship but the officers policies weren't so clear that night.
I'm not very familiar with Miss Evans and Miss Isham fates, but your guesses seem quite plausible.
Kind regards,
Joćo |
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 153
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 8, 2006 - 8:35 pm: |
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Thank you Joao,
I am glad to find someone who dose not go along with the thought "Bessie Allison didn't want to leave her husband". Personally i Believe that that opinion is hogwash and that Bessie and Loraine died due to the incompetence of their
Employee Alice Cleaver.
Grant Woollacott
Bless the poor Allisons
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Joćo Carlos Pereira Martins
Member
Username: keen_on_titanic
Post Number: 412
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 8, 2006 - 10:27 pm: |
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You're welcome, Grant. I've always loved the intriguing Allison story.
Best wishes,
Joćo |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11359
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 6:16 am: |
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>>Personally i Believe that that opinion is hogwash and that Bessie and Loraine died due to the incompetence of their
Employee Alice Cleaver.<<
May I ask what that incompetance was? Alice Cleaver was the one person who read the situation correctly and took the action which not only saved her life but Trevor's as well. If you read http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/3/ you'll see that both Mrs. Allison and Lorraine were both put in a lifeboat, but Mrs. Allison made the decision to leave the boat to look for her son. While this is certainly understandable, one has to wonder why she didn't leave her daughter in the care of one of the boat's passengers or crew. She could have but she didn't.
If you read http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/74/ you'll note that Miss Cleaver was hired specifically to take care of Trevor and that's exactly what she did.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3139
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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Grant, this topic is not redundant, as there is always the possibility of new evidence or interpretation coming to light. But to answer your first query - yes, there are existing threads where the fate of these ladies has been debated at length, and it would be best, I think, to continue the discussion there. The easiest way to find these threads would be to enter the ladies' names as keywords in the 'search' link on the menu bar at the bottom of this page. |
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 155
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 4:56 pm: |
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Michael -
The incompetence i was speaking about is her lack of care for Trevor. I would think that part of his well being is having his loving parents alive and had she said anything to Bessie at the least Bessie being a women would have possibly been saved. I have read the bios you set up a link for many times over and my opinion remains the same. There was no reason why she could not have told them were she was going and had she at least Bessie would have been saved. Bessie left the refuge of a lifeboat because she did not know where her son was and that is the incompetence of Alice Cleaver right there.
Grant Woollacott
Bless the poor Allisons
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11363
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 5:59 pm: |
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>>The incompetence i was speaking about is her lack of care for Trevor. <<
Then you're going to have one helluva time making the case since she saved Trevor's life. She had no control whatever over what his parents chose to do, and it's a demonsterable fact that Mrs. Allison made a decision which not only got her killed, but her daughter as well.
>>There was no reason why she could not have told them were she was going and had she at least Bessie would have been saved.<<
And maybe she did (Did they listen? Would they have listened?) and maybe she didn't. We weren't there so this isn't really knowable as a non-debatable fact.
>>Bessie left the refuge of a lifeboat because she did not know where her son was and that is the incompetence of Alice Cleaver right there. <<
Weeeeeellllll...no...it's not.
Miss Cleaver may or may not have told the Allisons what she was up to, but in the end, it was Mrs. Allison who made a councious and deliberate decision to leave the lifeboat and take her daughter with her. Mrs. Allison made that call, not Alice. She could have, as I pointed out, have left Lorraine under the care of another. She didn't do that and they paid for that mistake with their lives.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 156
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 8:01 pm: |
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>>Weeeeeellllll...no...it's not. << ?????
There is a huge contradiction to this whole story. Alice must not have told them because what other reason was there for Bessie to not get into a boat. The only reason Bessie and Loraine perished is the fact Bessie did not know where her son was. She most likely did not put Loraine in the care of another for the fear of losing another child. Even if it is indirect Alice Cleaver caused the Death of Bessie and Loraine.
Grant Woollacott
Bless the poor Allisons
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Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1179
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 12:49 am: |
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>>but in the end, it was Mrs. Allison who made a councious and deliberate decision to leave the lifeboat and take her daughter with her.<<
Exactly what is the evidence that Bess was ever in a lifeboat? Surely not what Major Peuchen is reported to have said? He is also reported as having seen her "....... quickly hustled into one of the collapsible life-boats, and when last seen by Major Peuchen she was toppling out of the half-swamped boat." - That was seen from boat 6? |
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 157
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 3:22 am: |
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Thank you Lester for questioning that quote as Bessie Allison made no concious or deliberate decision.
Bless the poor Allisons
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11368
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 6:06 am: |
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>>Alice must not have told them because what other reason was there for Bessie to not get into a boat. <<
"Must not" is a mighty big stretch. We're not privy to every conversation that took place. Alice Cleaver may have been dead silent or shouting it from the rooftops for all any of us know. We weren't there so we have to work from the evidence offered by those who were. Major Peuchen may well not be the most reliable witness for this, but if somebody has somebody better, feel free to present it. (We might learn something.)
>>The only reason Bessie and Loraine perished is the fact Bessie did not know where her son was.<<
She perished because she didn't get into the boat or stay in if she was put in the boat. The opportunity was there. Her reasons for staying behind would be entirely understandable, but that doesn't mean she had to take her daughter along for the ride, and it doesn't point to incompetence on Alice Cleaver's part. You may be able to make the case for negligence, but not incompetence.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 158
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
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Thank you Michael,
Severe negligence is really better wording for where i stand on this.
Bless the poor Allisons
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11371
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 4:33 pm: |
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>>Thank you Michael,<<
Not so fast. I said that "You may be able to make the case for negligence..." I did not say that you actually did, and asserting severe negligence is a whole 'nother smoke. You would first have to establish by the evidence exactly Miss Cleaver's legal and moral obligations were before you could even start in that direction. You would also have to establish who knew what and when, as well as who said what and when. You're going to have a real problem with that since the only first hand witnesses to that never made it to the other side of the Atlantic alive.
If I seem to be a stick in the mud on this, it's because Miss Cleaver has been everybody's scapegoat of choice in recent times when it comes to the Allison family's demise, with all kinds of sinister motives attributed to her, and it's really getting old. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no firm evidence to back up your sweeping conclusion, and for all any of us know, it could have been nothing more sinister then plain old miscommunication at work. That sort of thing happens all too often in a crisis.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 159
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
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Michael:
I was not thanking you for saying that i made case for negligence. I was saying thank you for coming up with a far better word that Communicates what i truly meant. Negligence communicates what i think far better than the word incompetence. Yes Alice Cleaver has been a scape goat especially after a child killer was found to have the same name and lived at the same time. Its clear Nursemaid Alice Cleaver was not a child killer and yes that accusation is getting very old. But that dose not mean Alice Cleaver was not severely negligent and caused the death of Bessie and Loraine.
Grant Woollacott
Bless the poor Allisons
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11373
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 5:02 pm: |
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>>But that dose not mean Alice Cleaver was not severely negligent and caused the death of Bessie and Loraine. <<
It doesn't mean that she was either. If you're going to attempt to make the case, you'll have to do far better then what you've managed here. All we have is speculation and no real knowladge of what happened between the people involved.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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John Knight
Member
Username: john_knight
Post Number: 143
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:08 pm: |
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Grant, firstly, where is your proof that Mrs. Allison got out of any boat because she did not know where her son Trevor was? Secondly, you seem bent on blaming Alice Cleaver for the death of Bess and her daughter Loraine. Have you not considered that Bess did not stay in the lifeboat for other reasons? For example the possibility that she did not want to leave her husband? Can you truly imagine the utter confusion and fear felt by many if not all that night? Why is not conceivable that Bess Allison just decided she could not be without her beloved husband, Hudson? You are viewing this through the eyes of somebody who was not there, somebody who has had time to think, lots of time, Bess did not. I do not blame her for anything and likewise I do not blame Alice Cleaver either, I have no reason to doubt her honesty, I could doubt it, but have never seen or read evidence that makes me do so. You have, I can not recall in which thread, already accused Bess Allison of being 'hysterical' for which you had no proof, indeed evidence we do have rather says otherwise, and you also accused Alice of being a murderer, again you were proved wrong, very wrong. Unless you can provide us all with, at least, verifiable evidence that anyone was negligent in this matter then I suggest you leave it.
Regards. |
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 160
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:38 am: |
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John:
>>Grant, firstly, where is your proof that Mrs. Allison got out of any boat because she did not know where her son Trevor was?<<
That is stated as the truth by many reputable sources (Books/Historians.
>>you seem bent on blaming Alice Cleaver for the death of Bess and her daughter Loraine.<<
Many people seem bent on clearing her name.
>>I can not recall in which thread, already accused Bess Allison of being 'hysterical' for which you had no proof<<
I have no idea what you are referring to but if you could direct me to the thread i will explain myself.
About me claiming Alice Cleaver was a child killer. At that point i was reading a book that still claimed Alice Mary Cleaver and Alice Catherine Cleaver were the same person.
What proof do you have that Alice Cleaver was honest? I am not saying this in a way like no proof exists. I have read that Alice Cleavers story change at least 12 times post Titanic sinking.
Grant Woollacott
Bless the poor Allisons
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 161
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 2:23 am: |
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Shortly after posting i went and found a passage in "A Night to Remember" that shed light on the situation. It says that the Allisons stood smiling on the promenade deck. Bessie clutching Loraine in one hand and Hudson in the other. When Officer Lightoller asked if he may place Loraine in a boat Bessie said and i quote from the book.
"Not on your life. We started together and, if need be, We'll finish together."
Had she known Trevor was off safe in a boat under Nurse Cleavers care she would not have said this. Because she most likely said this in a way like she would rather die than leave one behind. Meaning Alice Cleaver must not have told Bess and Hudson.
Bless the poor Allisons
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John Knight
Member
Username: john_knight
Post Number: 144
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 2:25 am: |
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>>John:
>>Grant, firstly, where is your proof that Mrs. Allison got out of any boat because she did not know where her son Trevor was?<<<<
>>That is stated as the truth by many reputable sources (Books/Historians<<
It does not appear in testimonies. I would hope you learned to be more careful about what you take to be 'truth' when you maligned both Bess Allison and Alice Cleaver, because of what you 'read in books'.
>>>>you seem bent on blaming Alice Cleaver for the death of Bess and her daughter Loraine.<<<<
>>Many people seem bent on clearing her name.<<
What sort of statement is that?! At least I did not accuse her of murder, vehemently so, and from what I have read, her story is pretty consistent, no less so than anyone can expect after such an ordeal, unless of course you only wish to see wrong doing. I know, you could say I am trying to see only right. No, I am after the truth, regardless and I will not make things 'fit' to suit either side of the debate.
>>>>I can not recall in which thread, already accused Bess Allison of being 'hysterical' for which you had no proof<<<<
>>I have no idea what you are referring to but if you could direct me to the thread i will explain myself.<<
This from the thread 'Nurse Alice Cleaver - personal opinions ?'
"...if alice cleaver had told the allisons why did she spend the night running up to people and showing them the portrait and asking if they had seen him. also if alice had told bessie why was bessie last seen holding lorraine, hugging hudson and screaming and whailing looking at the portrait if she knew trevor was safe this would not have happend."
Ok, so maybe you did not use the word hysterical, but "screaming and whailing" are close enough.
>>What proof do you have that Alice Cleaver was honest? I am not saying this in a way like no proof exists. I have read that Alice Cleavers story change at least 12 times post Titanic sinking.<<
Because I have no desire to condemn anyone, no matter who they are, on hear say and lies. I have neither seen, read nor heard anything that tells me Alice was a liar. My thoughts regarding her 'story' have already been expressed.
Maybe I could ask why I should treat you as honest? My answer would be the same as the one regarding Alice Cleaver, I have seen, read nor heard anything to suggest otherwise about you. Maybe you could extend that courtesy to Miss Cleaver?
I am grateful though that you no longer seem to be making Bess out to be, effectively, hysterical that night.
Regards. |
John Knight
Member
Username: john_knight
Post Number: 145
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 2:36 am: |
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>>Shortly after posting i went and found a passage in "A Night to Remember" that shed light on the situation. It says that the Allisons stood smiling on the promenade deck. Bessie clutching Loraine in one hand and Hudson in the other. When Officer Lightoller asked if he may place Loraine in a boat Bessie said and i quote from the book.
"Not on your life. We started together and, if need be, We'll finish together."<<
Grant, you really are clutching at straws. IF you re-read the 'quote' you will see it is attributed to "..a young western couple waiting near by.." and NOT Bessie Allison or any other Allison!
You are trying to fit anything to your theory to make it work! Leave the Allisons and Alice in peace for heavens sake.
Regards. |
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 162
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 2:52 am: |
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I am not trying to fit anything to make it work. It is a very vague passage i quoted so the witness who supplied it could have been Referring to either the couple or Bess. After truly thinking about all this the Allison family debate is really at loggerheads all we have is a "Consensus Hallucination " (quote from James Cameron) Its really only what the people who Survived said happened. Until more evidence comes forward this is really at loggerheads.
Bless the poor Allisons
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John Knight
Member
Username: john_knight
Post Number: 146
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 3:02 am: |
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If you read the 'qoute' in its context you will see, via punctuation, is very clearly attributed to "..a young western couple..", and nobody else.
You were prepared to take this as a direct quote from Mrs. Allison, if that is not trying to make things fit, I don't know what is. To add weight to what looks very much like you 'making things fit', I suggest you re-read your previous posts on this subject, you will see just how much you have wriggled and squirmed to try make your idea fit. |
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 163
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 3:30 am: |
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Its a matter of a printing error because my book has no punctuation were you say it dose. Because of that yes i was prepared to take this as a quote from Bess. obviously you are very much for your opinion and i am for mine. You are trying to make your view fit so why are you blaming me for doing the very same thing?
Bless the poor Allisons
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John Knight
Member
Username: john_knight
Post Number: 147
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 3:44 am: |
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>>Its a matter of a printing error because my book has no punctuation were you say it dose. Because of that yes i was prepared to take this as a quote from Bess. obviously you are very much for your opinion and i am for mine. You are trying to make your view fit so why are you blaming me for doing the very same thing?<<
I did not say where the punctuation is. Also I am not making anything 'fit' I am telling you what I have discovered. It is you who have clearly been trying to make your idea 'fit' as can be seen by your posts. I am NOT the one misquoting or taking everything that appears to back me up, at face value. It it worrying indeed that you came into this debate stating that Bess was 'screaming and wailing' and that Alice Cleaver was a 'murderer' for example. I suggest your 'theory' was highly coloured before you first posted on this subject on this site and you are trying now to make yourself right, no matter what.
I am also, I would like to point out, working purely from the premise of innocent until proven otherwise. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11375
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 4:16 am: |
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>>That is stated as the truth by many reputable sources (Books/Historians. <<
Grant, that's not what he asked you. Just because it's stated as truth in any number of histories...even by reputable researchers...doesn't make it so. What John asked you was "Grant, firstly, where is your proof that Mrs. Allison got out of any boat because she did not know where her son Trevor was?"
In other words, what he's looking for are primary i.e. first hand sources. Where are the sworn statements, affidavits, and depositions by eyewitnesses?
>>I am not trying to fit anything to make it work. It is a very vague passage i quoted so the witness who supplied it could have been Referring to either the couple or Bess.<<
Nope...that's not what you said. What you said was
quote: "Shortly after posting i went and found a passage in "A Night to Remember" that shed light on the situation. It says that the Allisons stood smiling on the promenade deck. Bessie clutching Loraine in one hand and Hudson in the other. When Officer Lightoller asked if he may place Loraine in a boat Bessie said and i quote from the book.
"Not on your life. We started together and, if need be, We'll finish together."
That's very specific whereas the book itself was vague.
>>Because of that yes i was prepared to take this as a quote from Bess. obviously you are very much for your opinion and i am for mine. You are trying to make your view fit so why are you blaming me for doing the very same thing?<<
Nope. He didn't. What he did was point out that your source didn't say what you claimed it did. This has nothing to do with his opinion versus yours and everything to do with what was actually in the text.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 164
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 11:56 am: |
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John and Michael have their opinions and they are strong i have mine and they are strong. The entire story of the Allisons is at loggerheads. Bessie 'screaming and wailing' is taken from a witness. I am not going to post in this thread again as this is getting no where and what is being talked about is not what is in the title.
The entire story of the Allison family is at loggerheads until more evidence comes forward. Lets end this under ok terms. thank you for voicing your opinions that is why this thread was started and it swept into misunderstandings and problems.
Grant Woollacott
Bless the poor Allisons
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11376
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 1:49 pm: |
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>>Bessie 'screaming and wailing' is taken from a witness. <<
Who?
>>that is why this thread was started and it swept into misunderstandings and problems. <<
What this thread is about is as evident as your first post above so there is no misunderstanding as to what it was all about. You made an assertion...and a particularly noxious one...about a person who is no longer in a position to defend herself.
That's not to say that Miss Cleaver isn't fair game for criticism, but it's only reasonable to have something credible to back it up.
That's the problem, Grant.
You don't.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2744
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 4:08 pm: |
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>>>>I can not recall in which thread, already accused Bess Allison of being 'hysterical' for which you had no proof<<<<
"Alice found Bess Allison nearly hysterical and trying to dress....just as Mrs. Allison was beginning to calm down a litle, a steward came by and ordered everyone on deck. Now both women began to panic.
"With Bess Allison oncre again verging on hysteria and still no sigh of either Mr. Allison or Sarah Daniels, Alice was faced with rescuing a distraught mother...etc...etc...etc."
Titanic: An Illustrated History, pg 117, 1st edition, aka the "what do you mean that isn't true?" edition.
I've wondered, often, about the source of such a richly detailed account. I assume that it must have come from Alice Cleaver, literally every other witness either being an infant or dead. However, with no footnotes or other attribution it is impossible to say whether this is a bonafide recounting of Alice Cleaver's experiences, or a newspaper canard accepted as genuine. A first person letter by Alice Cleaver, dating from the days immediately after her rescue before she had time to think about her actions, or lack thereof, would be wonderfully illuminating. As it stands, to me at least, both Alice Cleaver and Bess Allison are being portayed in unfavorable light by the repetition of this story, the history of which is weak at best. It is entirely possible that the Allisons and Alice Cleaver went on to the boat deck together and that Alice entered the boat with their consent. The holding back of Lorraine is understandable, if in fact Alice and Trevor went separate from the others, when one realises that we are party to information that Bess wasn't- namely that all the lifeboats survived and that the ship was about to sink.
>That's not to say that Miss Cleaver isn't fair game for criticism, but it's only reasonable to have something credible to back it up.
It's all based on that First Edition faux-pas. The story was told in a compelling way, by a historian, in a book that sold well. Many based their opinions on it, the Alice Cleaver story took legs, and it si not going to be easy to change that now.
Better to go into the night fighting than to request to be called "Pollyanna."
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 165
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 5:26 pm: |
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Thank you Jim for showing the info i was talking about
Bless the poor Allisons
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Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 442
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 5:58 pm: |
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Hi Grant-
But what Jim pointed out was that the info in that particular book was erroneous and there was no quoted source for Mrs. Allison being hysterical.
Unless you happen to know which passenger came upon Mrs. Allison in a upset state. I would probably not depend on books so much as independant research. I would think the best thing for you to do is to contact the Allison relatives and the Alice Cleaver Williams relatives.
Lucile:Everything I said about you could be covered up with makeup and a lie about a thyroid problem
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2745
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:06 pm: |
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Hi Grant: This is a prime example of how one must be very selective in what, and to whom, one quotes. The Allison information in that book ranges from fair to risible ~ to be charitable the fact checking wasn't what it should have been~ and people who quote from it sincerely and with best intentions are often unpleasantly surprised to discover that they are passing along a canard. For instance- the book claims that ALice wasn't a very good nursemaid and that early on in her tenure Bess was already having to repeat insructions. From whom did that come? Certainly not Bess, and probably not Alice. That leaves Sarah Daniels as the source. But, when did Sarah make that claim, and to whom? Is it from an April 1912 letter, which would be a good reenforcement of its veracity, or was it from a 25th anniversary newspaper interview? The book does not say. Alice Cleaver the child killer? If you check www.ussearch.com you'll see that there are several ALice Cleavers currently livng in the US, and Alice is not the common first name it once was. For the author to make the jump and assume that AN Alice Cleaver was THE Alice Cleaver without further checking was, to put it bluntly, stupid. And, a red flag that perhaps the rest of the information is suspect. So, at best, what happened with the Allison family is a bit contradictory and one's opinion on the guilt or innocence of Alice Cleaver msut be tempered by that knowledge.
Better to go into the night fighting than to request to be called "Pollyanna."
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 166
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 8:20 pm: |
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>>Bessie 'screaming and wailing' is taken from a witness. <<
Who?
I found it on a microfiche(spelling?) the paper claims it came from Allison family Employees.
Michael Poirier - I would not know where to begin with contacting Alice Cleavers family as i have looked for her daughters names for about a year with no luck.
Bless the poor Allisons
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John Knight
Member
Username: john_knight
Post Number: 148
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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From the thread titled "Nurse Alice Cleaver - personal opinions ?"
I quote Grant Woollacott:
>>i was in orlando florida at the titanic expirience in the mercado and the actor there was portraying Hudson Allison. he talked about the locket and how bessie was seen running up to people asking if they had seen trevor and showing them his picture. then i asked him about it and he told me that she had done that.<<
So, which is your 'source',Microfiche or actor?
Oh, and by the way, one of Alice Cleaver's daughters wrote the book, using verifiable proof, that cleared her mother of 'murder',her name? Dinah Burnett, easy really, and, if memory serves me correctly, Dinah also names her siblings in the book.
So, while writing to the Cleaver family, maybe you could visit the place you read the 'microfiche' and find out the name and date of the 'paper' recorded on it and let us all know the details so we can check them out?
I suspect though, that there is no microfiche, just as there was no actor portraying Hudson, as there was no murder by the Allison nanny, Alice Cleaver, as there is no proof of hysteria in any form from Mrs. Allison, indeed the contrary, need I go on?
Regards. |
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 167
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 1:28 am: |
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>>need I go on? << I was never rude to you so do not be rude to me.
The fact that no actor was portraying Hudson Allison was a misunderstanding.
Dinah Burnett is a pen name.
The Microfiche printed Bess was Hysterical.
the actor proved not to be a source at all.
John you have your opinions and i have mine.
Bless the poor Allisons
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John Knight
Member
Username: john_knight
Post Number: 149
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 2:02 am: |
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Grant, I am not being rude, I am pointing out why you are not being credible, it is not down to me regarding what YOU post.
So, your source for Bess being 'hysterical' is a microfiche and NOT an actor as you first claimed? If so, please, find the said microfiche and give us all the details I asked for.
And, yes, I do have my opinions, based on evidence or lack there of, you however do not help your cause in what you claim, none of which is proved, not even nearly so, and much of which is just downright wrong.
If you wish to be taken seriously, then show us you are being so. |
Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 168
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 2:13 am: |
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I know my information dose not have a lot of support i am working to find more. The source for Bess being hysterical came from the actor but when i looked into the matter more the microfiche supported what he had said. I will find the microfiche asap. Much of the evidence that surrounds the Allison family is circumstantial and slightly vague. Much research still needs doing to arrive at the best possible truth.
Grant Woollacott
Bless the poor Allisons
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11384
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 5:42 am: |
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>>I found it on a microfiche(spelling?) the paper claims it came from Allison family Employees.<<
Again...who?
The information you posted was pretty non specific and in all likelihood came from people who were not there. The only other employee who was there was Sarah Danials and there's nothing out there from her that's come to light. The bottom line is that if it didn't come from her, it came from people who were in no position whatever to know anything first hand.
>>I was never rude to you so do not be rude to me.<<
He wasn't rude. He was asking you a question, and a good one.
>>The Microfiche printed Bess was Hysterical.<<
Yes...and??? What is the source of the information? Was the source in a position to know or what? Are we talking about a passenger, a crewmember?
Grant, if I may, you really need to pay close attention to what the others are trying to tell you. I don't know John Knight very well, but I've known Jim Kalafus and Michael Poirier by way of the internet for years, and I know their work and it's quality. You would be very hard pressed to find a pair of such first class researchers anywhere else, and there's a reason for that: They make sure of their facts and they rely wherever possible on primary...i.e....first hand source material. (Actors don't get you there.)
However it may look to you, we're not trying to beat up on you. We're trying to give you some insights on what good historical reseach is all about. The problem...and in this instance...it's a very big problem...is that you're depending on sources which are at best second hand and uncertain, to the tertiary sort of thing that has taken on a life of it's own, a lot of which has turned out to be utterly bogus.
I see a lot of potential in you but you're not going to realize it if you shoot from the hip. If you want to do some really good research...and I think you do...I'd suggest you listen to what these chaps have to say to you here. You should also take a look at an article published by Randy Bryan Bigham at http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/item/4773/ which you should find helpful.
You may also find Carl Sagen's Baloney Detector Kit at http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html to be useful. While much of this deals with science, there are principles there which are evergreen.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 9:06 am: |
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In Judith Geller's Women and Children First there are claims that Mrs Allison was "incapacited by fear" and "standing on deck screaming". The first is from Alice Cleaver, in one of her accounts. The other is from Edwina Troutt. The book does not say where these accounts are to be found. Somebody more interested in the passengers than I am may be able to cite the original sources, perhaps in newspapers or letters.
Alice Cleaver seems to have played games with the press. Some give her name as Katie (or Katy) Andrews and The New York Herald of 24 April 1912 has a photo of her with Trevor Allison. She is described as "Nurse Andrews of Montreal".
Alice gave her correct name to the US immigration authorities and it may be seen on the Ellis Island site.
The passage in ANTR that has been mentioned in on page 104 of the illustrated version. The parts about the Strausses and the "Western couple" are obviously derived from Lightoller's book. The passage "The Allisons stood smiling on the promenade deck, Mrs Allison grasping little Lorraine with one hand, her husband with the other" is an example of Lord's habit of not citing sources. Maybe its source is in his notes.
Dave Gittins
Titanic: Monument and Warning.
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2746
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 11:21 am: |
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>Dinah Burnett is a pen name.
Write to her care of her publisher. Make sure that your cover letter, to the publisher, is innocuous. In most cases, they will gladly hold or forward your message.
>In Judith Geller's Women and Children First there are claims that Mrs Allison was "incapacited by fear" and "standing on deck screaming". The first is from Alice Cleaver, in one of her accounts. The other is from Edwina Troutt.
The Alice Cleaver reference in that account is of some value, if its source can be tracked down, but the Edwina Troutt quote less so because it immediately introduces the question "How could Edwina Troutt have known who Bess Allison was on sight, and when did she make this remark?" It is rather like Mrs. Shelley (or Mrs. Parrish) claiming that the Strauses took personal interest in her health ~ you can't help but think "Why? How could they possibly have known you? You wren't even in first class!"
>Alice Cleaver seems to have played games with the press. Some give her name as Katie (or Katy) Andrews and The New York Herald of 24 April 1912 has a photo of her with Trevor Allison. She is described as "Nurse Andrews of Montreal".
Can't really put any stock in that as evidence that Alice was playing games with the press. The press was in an agitated state that week and a large number of names ~ particularly those of third class passengers and servants ~ were either botched or totally made up. Mrs. Baba? Mrs Towna? Maman Jenasco? In a parallel but enlightening example of the press standard of the day, one May 8, 1915 newspaper contained a brief but convincing interview with Marie dePage, a minor celebrity aboard the Lusitania who, in fact, was too caught up in the rigors of being dead to grant any interviews- a personal policy she stuck with resolutely. Even if the Nurse Andrews reference appeared in multiple papers, it is of questionable value since The Herald was, along with The World, the most aggressive paper of its day and offered a fertile spot from which lesser papers could, and did, cull 'rewrite' material.
Something to ponder regarding Mrs. Allison's hysteria. It is totally at odds with the reaction of any other first class lady and so should be viewed with caution just from that angle. Remember, the source of the hysterical-in-cabin story can only be Alice Cleaver herself, so one cannot say that Bess was hysterical over the missing Trevor since, at that point in the sequence of events, he wasn't missing. Now, perhaps Mrs. Allison was prone to histrionics, and the sort who would immediately fly off the handle and break down, but to me this entire aspect of the story seems like coloring added by a reporter. Some first class ladies DID feel apprehensive, but from what I recall their reactions seemed more in keeping with Margaret Graham's shaking hands than with the demoralized state attributed to Bess. If Mrs. Allison fell apart that dramatically, early on in the disaster, she was unique because,it seems, no one else did.
Better to go into the night fighting than to request to be called "Pollyanna."
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 169
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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Again I will find the microfiche asap. Michael i have read a few times the article by Randy and have used his advice with some things. As i have not been alive as long as some of you have been researching i would say i am a greenhorn. I still have much to learn about this endlessly fascinating subject.
Bless the poor Allisons
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11388
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 3:39 pm: |
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>>Again I will find the microfiche asap.<<
Fair enough.
Make sure you make full use of the guidelines in the links I posted above and be very careful about taking anything at face value. A lot of what's out there is not as golden as it looks. Especially in newspapers who didn't mind printing interviews with people who just happened to be dead at the time they were questioned as per the example that Jim provided. (How did they get their answers? Oujia Board?)
It was no different with Titanic where many a paper had no quibble with not letting some inconvenient facts get in the way of printing a good story.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Marilyn Lena Penner
Member
Username: marylinusca
Post Number: 148
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 3:40 pm: |
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Jim Kalafus wrote, "Something to ponder regarding Mrs. Allison's hysteria. It is totally at odds with the reaction of any other first class lady and so should be viewed with caution just from that angle. ... Now, perhaps Mrs. Allison was prone to histrionics, and the sort who would immediately fly off the handle and break down, but to me this entire aspect of the story seems like coloring added by a reporter."
All the stuff the papers printed was of course after the fact and was given to the reporters by the survivors. May I suggest that the first class ladies would be reticent about admitting to reporters, "I was so terrified I screamed and screamed like a peasant from steerage." It's unladylike and declasse. And questioning a lady's statement is not polite, so the reporters would not have done so.
That's not to say that the ladies in boat six or any other lifeboat weren't 'plucky' (Major Peuchen's word). The women survivors were brave. Very brave, considering that many lost their husbands, which must've been terrible for ladies brought up to depend on men. And the plucky ones were the most likely to survive. An hysterical woman would've been parilysed with fear. Maybe Bess could not fend for herself without Hudson.
I do wish Alice had taken Lorraine too; but maybe she had to hold Trevor with both hands, and thought Bess and Lorraine would follow her.
I'm just saying that you can't trust the reports of their sang froid and stiff upper lips to be accurate either.
And why wouldn't the reporters get Alice Cleaver's name right, if she gave it to them? With all the shouting going on and the rapid scribbling and shorthand the reporters were doing, mis-writting something like "Baba", "Towna", and "Jenasco" is logical. But 'Kitty Andrews' does not sound in the least like 'Alice Cleaver'. Alice might not have been 'that' Alice Cleaver; but she might have hidden her identity - perhaps so that people would not confuse her with 'that' Alice Cleaver.
"Might" and "Perhaps" again. Not definite, but it is possible.
Marilyn P.
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 2748
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 11:39 pm: |
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>All the stuff the papers printed was of course after the fact and was given to the reporters by the survivors. May I suggest that the first class ladies would be reticent about admitting to reporters, "I was so terrified I screamed and screamed like a peasant from steerage."
Two things- First, in the case of Titanic I take little, if anything, from the papers April 18-20th. seriously, because there was an unusual amount of embroidery done by reporters. This is one of those events in which one must, at all expense seek out letters and first person accounts written out in the first two weeks or so after the disaster. Second, in many private accounts wriiten in those first few days, many women and men of the Titanic tried to articulate their experiences while still on the ship, and though many described a mounting sense of fear (Miss Francatelli's "I felt myself go like marble" quote comes to mind) and the nervous reactions of others (witness the Margaret Graham chicken sandwich shaky hands thing) no one of whom I can recall described the sort of hysteria attributed to Mrs. Allison in private correspondence either. I have no doubt that there was fear and apprehension, being that there are so many non-newspaper accounts that attest to it, and don't doubt that at the end there probably was outright hysteria when the reality of impending death set in, but I GRAVELY doubt that Mrs. Allison would have fallen to pieces in the manner being bruted about while still in her stateroom and with Trevor not yet missing. Quite a bit of great stuff comes out in private accounts- witness the prominent First Class Lusitania survivor who admitted to defecating on himself in terror in that sinking- so I am confident that HAD anyone fallen to pieces during the early stages, and in First Class, it would have been witnesses and gossiped about in private writing.
>And questioning a lady's statement is not polite, so the reporters would not have done so.
Just ask Lady Duff Gordon.
>And why wouldn't the reporters get Alice Cleaver's name right, if she gave it to them?
How did Marie dePage's corpse give an interview? Simple-it was made up. Could not Alice have dodged the press with a 'no comment' and could not then someone have made up a name? And even if she did make up a name, what of it? With "Mr. Lingrey" "Baron von Drachstedt" "Madame DeVilliers" "Mr.and Mrs. Marshall" et al, she was hardly the only one to do so.
Better to go into the night fighting than to request to be called "Pollyanna."
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Marilyn Lena Penner
Member
Username: marylinusca
Post Number: 149
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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>>And why wouldn't the reporters get Alice Cleaver's name right, if she gave it to them?
>How did Marie dePage's corpse give an interview? Simple-it was made up. Could not Alice have dodged the press with a 'no comment' and could not then someone have made up a name?
"Master Allison's brave and devoted nurse" would've been just as good.
> And even if she did make up a name, what of it? With "Mr. Lingrey" "Baron von Drachstedt" "Madame DeVilliers" "Mr.and Mrs. Marshall" et al, she was hardly the only one to do so.
But if she did lie about her name, why? (That's supposing that she did lie.) There were other survivors who knew her real name, and knew the baby was Trevor Allison.
And why did she cover up Trevor's identity?
Marilyn P.
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 11395
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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>>But if she did lie about her name, why? (That's supposing that she did lie.) <<
What obligation did Miss Cleaver have to be candid to the press in the first place? None that I know of.
The notion of integrity and respectability in the media is a nice and idealistic fiction which had nothing to do with the real world then, and argueably, scarcely does even now. "Yellow Journalism" which was a hallmark of William Randolph Hearst's newspapers was practiced by everyone else as well because it sold copy, and a single misstep or mis-spoken word could easily backfire on you.
The plain and simple fact was that Miss Cleaver had no reason to trust any one of these people.
>>And why did she cover up Trevor's identity?<<
Her job was the care of her charge, and that would by extension include protecting him from the news hawks.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3044
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 5:57 pm: |
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quote:The incompetence i was speaking about is her lack of care for Trevor.
I fail to see where Alice Cleaver was incompetent, in looking after Trevor. She was hired to care for him and she fulfilled her duties as required. As I've explained to you in the other thread, she took the initiative by getting Trevor to the boat deck, in order to get into a lifeboat. She should be praised for her quick action and initiative, to save the youngest member of the Allison family, not criticized for incompetence which in my opinion is unfounded and unjustified. What more do you want from someone that can't defend herself and that passed away over two decades ago?
quote:Bessie 'screaming and wailing' is taken from a witness.
I found it on a microfiche(spelling?) the paper claims it came from Allison family Employees
That's all fine and dandy, but until I see more credible evidence supporting this and since I've never come across it in my research, I'll take it with a large grain of salt.
quote:Again I will find the microfiche asap.
Please do.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 0' 39" N, 79° 0' 23" W.
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John Knight
Member
Username: john_knight
Post Number: 150
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:00 pm: |
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>>What obligation did Miss Cleaver have to be candid to the press in the first place? None that I know of.
The notion of integrity and respectability in the media is a nice and idealistic fiction which had nothing to do with the real world then, and argueably, scarcely does even now. "Yellow Journalism" which was a hallmark of William Randolph Hearst's newspapers was practiced by everyone else as well because it sold copy, and a single misstep or mis-spoken word could easily backfire on you.
The plain and simple fact was that Miss Cleaver had no reason to trust any one of these people.
Her job was the care of her charge, and that would by extension include protecting him from the news hawks.<<
Well said, I don't need to add anything to that. |
Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 3097
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:05 am: |
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Here's an odd thing.
On some early survivor lists we find "Allison, Master and nurse". This is followed by "Andrews, Miss K T". The New York Herald, 19 April.
There really was a survivor called Kornelia Theodosia Andrews.
Maybe somebody assumed K T Andrews was the name of the nurse. Perhaps the mixup wasn't Alice's doing. TNYH was calling her Andrews as late as 24 April. The name of the child is always given more or less correctly. Sometimes he's called Travers instead of Trevor.
Dave Gittins
Titanic: Monument and Warning.
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html
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Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1097
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 7:42 am: |
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Hi Jason,
I happened upon the following, taken from a private interview between Edwina Troutt MacKenzie and authoress Rustie Brown, published in "The Titanic the Psychic and the Sea"
"Up in first class Edwina heard the only scream that she was to hear on the deck of the titanic, She said "A Mrs. Allison was standing in the middle of the deck screaming. I thought to myself, what a silly goose, nothing has even happened yet. My friend and I were mystified at Mrs. Allison's screams as there had been no announcement that we were in any danger"
I wondered how, as a second class passenger, Edwina Troutt would have known that it was Mrs Allison making the commotion?
Hope all is well with you, Jason?
Geoff |
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 7:51 am: |
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If I had looked further back, I would have seen that Jim has already discussed the identification factor - sorry Jim!
Geoff |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3048
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 10:02 pm: |
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Hi Geoff,
quote:Hope all is well with you, Jason?
Yes, I'm doing well, thank you for asking. Hope you are as well and that we'll finally meet next April.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 0' 39" N, 79° 0' 23" W.
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Grant Woollacott
Member
Username: spirit3333
Post Number: 178
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 5:52 pm: |
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My library is closed for renovations but upon its reopening i will find the microfiche.
Bless the poor Allisons
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Amanda Ratliff
Member
Username: mander
Post Number: 106
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 6:14 pm: |
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Can anyone tell me just what Alice Cleaver and Sara Daniel's "official" statements on the Allison family were? It seems to me that a wealthy first class woman and her toddler dying on the famous Titanic would be a major seller. We see even today news hounds who invent the most appealing story to sell papers. The idea of a grieving mother desperately searching for her lost infant and refusing to be separated from her daughter would certainly sell more than a few - it still fills up history books today. The whole story wreaks of propoganda with a small basis in truth. |
