| Author |
Message |
    
N. James Wright
Member
Username: steatham_man
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 9:59 am: | 
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Does anyone know the nationality off Lionel Leonard? |
Chris Dohany
Member
Username: cdohany
Post Number: 146
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 6:41 am: |
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I believe he was native to Kent, making him a British subject. |
Emma Richardson
Member
Username: emy
Post Number: 107
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 10:19 pm: |
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Hi
The free (at the moment) to view passenger list at findmypast.com has him listed as an 'alien passenger' boarding at Southampton, subject or citizen of USA - although he may have become a citizen of America at some point as oppose to being born there. I can only find 2 Lionel Leonards in any UK census, one born 1888 in Plymouth and the other born 1881 in Jersey. Leonard who sailed on Titanic would have been born circa 1876. Some of the other American Line employees - Thomas Storey, Alfred Carver etc - all appear on the same passenger sheet as Lionel and also appear as US subjects/citizens. Maybe your best bet would be to look at the ships passenger lists on the Ellis Island website to try and find him sailing prior to 1912 for a place of birth. |
Chris Dohany
Member
Username: cdohany
Post Number: 147
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 3:31 pm: |
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I also was unable to find him in UK censuses, or US censuses for that matter, assuming Leonard was indeed age 36 in 1912. Ditto on the Ellis Island manifests. Closest I could find, via FreeBMD birth indices, was a Lionel John Leonard born 1874 in Sevenoaks, Kent. |
Emma Richardson
Member
Username: emy
Post Number: 108
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 7:04 pm: |
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Hi Chris
This Lionel died aged 4 I think also in Sevenoaks, which is why he doesn't appear on a census. Sometimes it can be a really frustrating experience trying to find someone on a census, although when you eventually find them it is fantastic. I am sure loads of us have embarrassed ourselves by yelling something out loud in a quiet library or record office when we have spied a missing ancestor on a census!
Maybe we need to find his shipmates on paper and see if they were UK or US born, that might help locate Lionel in 1901. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3354
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 7:25 pm: |
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There were several Lionel Leonards in England, the US and Canada, but most were still in their early 20's in 1912. The best candidate is Lionel Frederick Leonard from St Helier, who would have been 31. He's also most likely to have a seafaring background, living initially in the Channel Islands and moving later to Weymouth, Dorset. Trouble is he's still a bit too young, and the only marriage record we have for him is to Leslie Hoggan - the Titanic Relief Fund paid out to a wife called Annie.
. |
N. James Wright
Member
Username: steatham_man
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 10:18 am: |
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The reason I asked this question is that suspect that was not his real name. How do I find a list of everyone that was paid out on the Titanic Relief Fund? and does it state why they were paid? i.e. Who died and their relationship to the deceased.
Regards. |
Emma Richardson
Member
Username: emy
Post Number: 109
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 5:12 pm: |
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Funny you should say that as I was beginning to wonder if Lionel was a middle name. I found a John Richard L Leonard born 1877 Bristol marrying an Annie Elizabeth Cottle in Bristol Sept Qtr 1900. As Bob says above Lionel's widow was called Annie.
What sort of paperwork did someone travelling abroad have to produce in 1912? Did you need a passport then or your birth certificate to prove who you were? As at least three or four passengers were travelling under false names I am assuming you didn't?
I would also love to know if there is an online list of Titanic Relief Fund recipents. |
Andrew Williams
Member
Username: andreww
Post Number: 381
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 7:41 pm: |
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Hello Emma,
Doing the normal rounds as usual. The answer to your question is 'yes'. There are recipients that are found with the Southampton Committee.
Alfred John Carver is British and still listed by the Mansion House Committee as a Third Class Passenger. The same goes for Storey as well.
(Alfred) August Johnson is an American but married a British subject. August along with other names in this group are officially referred by the Mansion House as Crew and not Passengers as we are all to believe. Why they decided change and place them under as Crew section still remains a mystery. Sadly not much in the way of further paperwork survives now.
However, the very few documents remaining neatly tucked inside the Minute Book's at Southampton Archives, are available to view.
Hope the above confirms all your answers.
A.W. |
Chris Dohany
Member
Username: cdohany
Post Number: 148
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 3:23 pm: |
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The 1901 UK census shows John R. L. Leonard, age 24, residing in Bristol with his wife Annie, age 22; Mr. Leonard's occupation is listed as "Guard on Stationary Engine." This is around ten years prior to Titanic, so a change of occupation is possible.
The 1891 census shows 13-year-old John R. L., no occupation, residing with his parents in Tiverton, Somerset. His father was also named John R. L. - perhaps an indication why the junior John Leonard went by his middle name (if of course this is "our" Lionel)? |
Andrew Williams
Member
Username: andreww
Post Number: 382
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 5:02 pm: |
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Hello Chris
Like you, I did the same self search about a year ago and got the same results as yourself. I even extend the search by trying to locate the place of birth for the children, but the feedback didn't look all that promising.
The only way to solve this problem is to double-check all the pages with Minute Book No 2 and see if any reference is made to the Leonard family.
One thing I have noticed, by 1913 Storey and Carver were still treated as Passenger's. Storey was place under the jurisdiction of the Liverpool Committee, whereas Carver was placed under Southampton.
As oppose to the Leonard family (possibly under P332) his family could have been transferred as Crew with an emergency Crew Number like the family of August Johnson who was originally under the Passenger number P330, but transferred under C698.
Give me a number of days to do an in-depth search. I cannot promise the earth but its worth checking.
A.W. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3363
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 5:33 pm: |
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The names of the children might be a clue. Craig Stringer gives them as Gould and Eileen. Gould is a very unusual name, and I'm not even sure whether it was given to a boy or a girl. The only Gould Leonard I could locate in any kind of UK records (even with alternative spellings) was an entry in the London phone directory from the 1930s to the '70s, which might well be the same person. It's interesting, however, that there are a few Gould (or Gold) Leonards, some male, some female, scattered around the US and Canadian census records for the nineteenth century, which suggests we might be looking on the wrong side of the Pond.
. |
Emma Richardson
Member
Username: emy
Post Number: 110
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 8:44 pm: |
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Thanks for that info Andrew.
Bob - don't you just want to pick the phone up and ring Gould in 1970!!!
I don't have a date of birth for either of these children but I just had a look on the freebmd site and found a Eileen Marjorie Leonard born September Qtr 1901 ( after the 1901 census). She was registered Bristol district - which was where JRL Leonard and Annie Cottle were married in Sept Qtr 1900. It is looking for a needle in a haystack though.
I think Bob is probably right, we are looking in the wrong place. With just a little more information we might just do it. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3364
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 8:59 pm: |
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A nice thought, Emma - but only if the phone box is the Tardis! All will be revealed, no doubt, when the 1911 census data goes public in four years time. |
Andrew Williams
Member
Username: andreww
Post Number: 407
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 11:07 am: |
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Another point I want to announce. During this coming week I shall be releasing some of the details relating to this case on Andrew Clarkson's site - Titanic - Titanic.com., as Lionel Leonard's real name is Andrew John Shannon.
Someone who use to hang around here has decided to hop over and start making the claim that it was his grandfather who saved a 'Baby'. I was under the impression it was Captain Smith who did the honourable deed and no one else.
Once I finished with the records at Dorceshter, then I can further release the details on E.T., and pass over the rest to this person concern out in Northern Ireland. I fear this may not take one journey but several as there's the usual load to check like baptise records, newspaper article etc, etc,.
Sometime later in 2008 I should be satisfied with the outcome and report back with the necessary findings.
Enjoy your Easter Monday.
Cheers - A.W. |
