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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 141
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 11:17 am: | 
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In recent posts we've considered the differences prevailing WITHIN rather than BETWEEN the various social groups aboard the 'Titanic'. It's a fascinating question and one I believe can be explored in some depth. We all know the Astors and the Wideners - but what about the more obscure passengers?
As an Englishman, I have a special interest in the British contingent travelling in first-class. Aside from aristocrats like the Duff Gordons, Tyrell Cavendish and Noelle Rothes, there were also representatives of the affluent professional and mercantile middle classes, like Thomas Pears, Edith Chibnall and her daughter, Elsie Bowerman. Many of the observations I made on the Pears thread concerning the situation of the middle classes in society (and, indeed, Society) in 1912 are equally applicable here. But there are several points of interest specific to Mrs Chibnall and Miss Bowerman.
Based on that fantastic ET research article about their lives and careers, I'd say that here were two feisty and driven women, not content to remain within the boundaries society in 1912 prescribed for them. Their involvement with the suffragette movement is particularly worthy of note. 'Votes for women' was a highly topical subject at this time and campaigners were becoming ever more militant and extreme in their tactics. Every British and American passenger aboard the ship would have held a view on the question. Elsie Bowerman's role, quite apart from her 'Titanic' connection, is well-documented. I recently picked up a popular history of the suffragettes in my local library and found numerous references to her in the index which I plan to explore in greater depth at a future date.
More controversially, I'd also venture that Elsie was a lesbian - the implication in the ET article is clear. I'm not passing any kind of judgement on her but I am surprised that her name has not cropped up before in discussions on the subject of homosexuality at this time. I believe several leading campaigners for the vote were gay?
Finally, I'd observe that it is fascinating, the way in which Edith and Elsie kept such a low-profile during the voyage and the sinking. They escaped in Lifeboat No. 6, captained (at least nominally) by the objectionable Hichens and accompanied by such luminaries as Molly Brown and Helen Churchill Candee - neither of them shrinking violets! Presumably, in such an under-filled boat, they were privy to the discussions and bickering that took place as the occupants debated whether to row back and rescue those in the water? Yet their views are unrecorded and they certainly didn't get up and make a stand. I believe at least one suffragette later complained that the female passengers had 'let the side down' by taking to the boats ahead of the men. I'd never pass judgement myself. But I find it interesting that Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon has been continually criticised for not displaying the leadership qualities associated with a man of his social standing. I'd tentatively venture that Edith Chibnall and Elsie Bowerman could have done more in No. 6 to make a difference, thereby distinguishing themselves and earning glory for their cause. I suppose it only goes to show that, until tested by extreme circumstances, we never really know our own strengths and weaknesses. |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 444
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 3:12 am: |
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Martin,
I have frequently pondered (also without judgement) several of the points you raised. We do have to tread carefully here...
It is interesting that these two suffragettes left in an early "women and children only" boat. I forget who the prominent man was in 1912 who said something about how "Votes for Women" should be translated into "Boats for Women", and how "Remember the Titanic" should be uttered to shut up any woman calling for the vote. And, yes, as you said, there were feminists safe on dry land who engaged in armchair scorn for women on the Titanic who accepted "women and children first".
Like you, I don't judge Edith and Elsie. Firstly because politics and principles are all very well until you're standing on a slanting deck in the dark on a bone-chilling night with very little info.
Secondly, my sense is that we can be too quick to imagine that those in 1912 who espoused causes with which we may sympathize would have held our attitudes in other things. The idea that women were prisoners of their weaker bodies might have been harder than we imagine to throw off, even by those who felt women's minds should be liberated. As an example of how suffragism could be blended with (to us) antiquated ideas about a woman's place, I remember once seeing a reproduction of a flier advertising a suffrage rally that identified the speakers as "Mrs. George So-and-so" and "Mrs. John Somebody".
Switching gears, Martin, I notice that you implied a difference between the professional and mercantile middle classes. I do wonder what Edith Pears' mother, apparently from a family of wealthy solicitors, would have made of her daughter's mother-in-law (a baker's daughter, it seems) or Edith Chibnall (a former draper's assistant). Those higher or lower on the social scale might have sniffed that, socially, there wasn't so much difference between them and her. If she inclined towards snobbery, however, Ada Wearne could have made a case that a vast gulf separated them from her. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12685
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 3:49 am: |
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>>and how "Remember the Titanic" should be uttered to shut up any woman calling for the vote. <<
To which at least one notable suffergette responded "If women had the vote, there would have been boats for all." Can't recall exactly who said that but it was a nice comeback.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 143
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 3:59 pm: |
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I would like to reiterate that I would NEVER presume to judge the conduct of any individual that night. None of us, sitting warm and dry at our computers, can be sure how WE would have behaved in similar circumstances. That's why the continued criticism of the Duff Gordons angers me so much!
Nevertheless, I do feel that Elsie Bowerman missed a trick - I can imagine (as perhaps she herself did in later years) a scenario in which she, instead of Molly Brown, took on Hichens and ended up in control of No. 6. It would have been a considerable coup for her cause! |
sashka pozzetti
Member
Username: sashkapozzetti
Post Number: 132
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 5:35 pm: |
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I agree that people have all sorts of things that influence their decisions. Lucile was a feminist, and suffragette friendly, and she had also been in a terrible shipwreck once before , when she was a child. I am sure this made her assertive about getting off the ship, when others may not have been so confident. I would like to think that if Lucile hadn't found a place in a lifeboat, she would have spent her last moments trying to find some alternative way of staying alive. The two women should perhaps have been more assertive, as should most people, but they were frightened, in a new situation, and made a judgement. I wasn't there so I cannot ever know why they did this. I think that this doesn't make them look weak , just normal, but it does make people like Molly Brown look even more heroic, and she was after all a woman. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 185
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 2:05 pm: |
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I wouldn't necessarily see the fact that Lucy got into No. 1 as evidence of her assertiveness. I know that abandoning ship was a risky business (with hindsight, the only thing which would have been riskier would have been remaining on the 'Titanic'!) but I'd sooner view her decision - and the decision of every other survivor who left in a lifeboat - as Lucy simply putting her trust in those more qualified than herself to assess the gravity of the situation. To put it bluntly - in unfamiliar surroundings (and what, for most, would have been more unfamiliar than to be standing outside, in the freezing cold, in the middle of the night, on a tilting deck, in the middle of the Atlantic?) most people do what they are told by those in positions of authority. It's not like Lucy and Cosmo, in abandoning ship, set an example which others then followed - they were just two among hundreds!
I still maintain that it would have made fantastic copy for the suffragette cause, had Edith and Elsie refused to board the lifeboats ahead of the men - still more so, had they surrendered their places to a father with a wife and children. Like Guggenheim, the Strauses and the band playing on, they would have gone down in 'Titanic' legend and earned eternal glory for their movement. But I do realise that it is a bit much for me to sit here, safe and warm and dry, and recommend what would, in effect, have been suicide to two women who may have had any amount of courage in their convictions but who wouldn't necessarily have wished to DIE for them. And it's not as if they would have viewed the situation as 'life and death' when they boarded No. 6 anyway. Like many, they perhaps fully expected to be back aboard by dawn.
What I DO find so interesting is how characters really come into their own under critical conditions. On paper, Elsie Bowerman would have seemed like the ideal champion of No. 6 - headstrong, opinionated, feisty and single-minded. But on the night of the sinking, she sat tight, like virtually everybody else, and did as she was told. This, unfortunately, is the fact and no amount of wishful thinking or idle musing on my part can change it! |
sashka pozzetti
Member
Username: sashkapozzetti
Post Number: 181
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 2:46 pm: |
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I think I read that Lucile refused to get into two lifeboats first, because she wasn't allowed to go with Cosmo. I think they eventually asked if they could get in the 3rd which was being lowered with not many people in.They weren't told to, they asked!!!
When Lucy was in the other shipwreck, everyone had to wait for rescue, and only just got off the boat in time before it split in two, so I really do think she must have had some sense of urgency about getting off! I don't think Lucile was the sort of person who just did what she was told.!!! |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 186
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 5:29 pm: |
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No more do I. But, like hundreds of others that night, it sounds to me like she prevaricated rather. I think one might make more of a claim for 'assertiveness' if she had stayed on the ship, rather than changing her mind.
However, the subject of this thread is Elsie Bowerman and Edith Chibnall... |
sashka pozzetti
Member
Username: sashkapozzetti
Post Number: 182
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 6:17 pm: |
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assertive people don't stay on sinking ships, unless they want to assert a wish to drown!!!:-)
take it away Edith, and Elsie. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12819
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 6:09 am: |
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>>assertive people don't stay on sinking ships,<<
Tell that to Charles Lightoller!
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 262
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 2:47 pm: |
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Hi Brian
Further to your post of 28th April, it occurs to me that you would surely find Vera Brittain's 'Testament of Youth' to be of interest. As I'm sure you are aware, this is an intimate and moving account of the lives and experiences of the author and her contemporaries during the dark days of the Great War. Brittain was very much a product of her time and class - her father was a well-to-do manufacturer and the family resided in the genteel spa-town of Buxton, where Vera made her formal debut around 1912. However, she found the ceaseless round of teas and dances somewhat limiting and, having met with considerable opposition from her parents, she finally succeeded in winning a place for herself at Oxford in 1914 - only to abandon her studies the following year as the situation in Europe deteriorated. There are undoubtedly many parallels between Brittain's life, and those of Elsie Bowerman and Edith Pears, who were more or less of the same age and background.
Brittain held many strong opinions, amongst which was a deep-seated horror of 'provincialism', her own catch-all term for bourgeois snobbery and narrow-mindedness. You might find her scathing observations on this subject to be of some use when considering the divisions (real or imagined) which separated the various sections of the Edwardian middle class.
All the best, enjoy your weekend
Martin |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 485
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 5:52 pm: |
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Thanks, Martin! Will add that to my (forever growing) list of must-reads.
Sorry I didn't reply sooner - was away for Memorial Day weekend. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 269
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
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You're welcome, Brian. As we seem to share very much the same interests, I hope you won't hesitate to recommend books to me too! |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 303
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 8, 2007 - 12:26 pm: |
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Although I have been aware for some time that both Elsie Bowerman and Edith Pears attended Wycombe Abbey, it has only just occurred to me that they would have been exact contemporaries and maybe even classmates. The 'public school network' is generally held to be of most use to boys as they establish relationships that can last throughout their lives but, in this case, we see it working with girls too.
Interesting to consider that Elsie broke with convention to pursue an academic career at university before throwing her weight behind a radical cause like the suffragette movement. Edith, on the other hand, was 'finished' in France before settling (for all too brief a period) into a life of comfortable, middle-class domesticity with Thomas Pears.
I wonder what the two girls made of each other? I assume that they made contact at some point during the voyage. |
sashka pozzetti
Member
Username: sashkapozzetti
Post Number: 262
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 8, 2007 - 1:46 pm: |
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I wonder if anyone on ET attended a public school? I have no idea what that would be like, and how the 'old boy network' might work. It is definitely interesting to think that it might have such an influence. If anyone has, I would be interested to know how they think this may have benefitted Titanic passengers, maybe on another thread? A friend of mine attended a finishing school, and she definitely keeps friendships with other class mates, but this is only because they hated it. She did learn how to wave at a friend across the street, in an elegant way (not a joke!!!) and hail a cab, and get into it, without being immodest! |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13253
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 9, 2007 - 12:35 am: |
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>>I wonder if anyone on ET attended a public school?<<
For those of us in the USA, public school is virtually the norm.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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sashka pozzetti
Member
Username: sashkapozzetti
Post Number: 264
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 9, 2007 - 12:50 am: |
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I'll try to get my capital letters right! (don't want to upset that crazy teacher I mentioned before!) let's try 'Public School' |
Steve Shortman
Member
Username: boycie
Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 9, 2007 - 1:53 pm: |
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I don’t know anything about the education system in the States but attending public school in the UK is anything but the ‘norm’. In fact the word ‘Public’ is really a misnomer. Public schools in the UK are generally privately funded independent schools with a selection process. Two of the most famous are Eton and Harrow and the boarding fees are about £25,000 ($50,000) per year. If you’re fortunate enough to attend one of these schools you certainly have a ‘leg up’ in life. For example, 26 former British prime ministers come from these two schools alone.
Individuals from more humble backgrounds can certainly achieve as much now in the UK as someone from a more privileged background but the ‘old boy network’ is certainly still alive and kicking for those who have had a ‘public school’ education’.
Ismay went to Harrow. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 305
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 2:57 pm: |
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The question of education and schooling is potentially very interesting but I believe the subject has yet to be explored in any depth on this board.
Is there a moderator around? At the risk of sounding rather bossy, might I suggest that a new thread, exclusively devoted to the academic background of passengers and crew, is started under the heading of 'Gilded Age'? As this discussion seems to be heading in a more general direction, a biographical thread is perhaps not the best place to conduct it.
I'll wait to make my contribution until the new thread is opened. |
sashka pozzetti
Member
Username: sashkapozzetti
Post Number: 266
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:38 pm: |
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I have started a thread for us all. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3536
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 7:25 pm: |
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Martin, you don't need to be a moderator to start a new thread. Any member can do that. Navigate to a suitable index page (eg click on 'passenger research' at the top of this page) and look for the 'start new thread' link at the bottom of the list of existing threads. Check first, of course, to ensure that any new thread isn't duplicating an existing one, but in this case I don't think there were any. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 585
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 1:32 pm: |
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http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/history/elsiebowerman.html
I very much hope that the hyper-link I'm attaching above will be accessible to fellow board members, since the 'cover page' includes by far the best portrait of Elsie Bowerman I've ever seen. Apparently taken at a professional photographer's studio, the dress and hair-style are spot-on for 1912 and so, presumably, this is exactly what Elsie looked like when she and her mother sailed aboard the 'Titanic'. It's quite an exciting discovery for me, actually - a hitherto elusive passenger wins back her face! |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 587
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 10:05 am: |
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Here's a link to the website of Wycombe Abbey. Elsie attended the school as a girl and must have been happy there, as she remained active in its interests until the end of her life.
http://www.wycombeabbey.com/
As I remarked in one of my previous posts, fellow first-class passenger Edith Pears was a contemporary and school-mate of Elsie and the two young women must at least have recognised each other aboard the 'Titanic'. I've read elsewhere on this site that Lucile Carter (the daughter) was at the Abbey for a short time during the early years of the Great War.
I'm also attaching a link to a bed-and-breakfast in East Sussex which I think must be the house, 'Batchelors', which Elsie bought in later years. Lucky her - coincidentally, I spent last weekend in the country close by and think that that part of England is one of the most beautiful I've ever seen.
http://www.batchelors-bb.co.uk/ |
