| Author |
Message |
    
Melinda Laura Varju
Member
Username: latterdaysaint
Post Number: 52
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:26 am: | 
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hey everyone!
I'm PROUD to be at BYU. Check this out: "Armed with this confirmation of the likely presence of dentin, the Parr-Ruffman team took the tooth to Brigham Young University in
Utah where DNA was extracted and identified. The Unknown Child now had a name: Eino Viljami Panula, a 13-month-old Finnish baby
who had been travelling with his mother and siblings when the Titanic went down." THAT'S MY UNIVERSITY! I'm writing frm there right now! 
Cheers,
Melinda Laura Varju |
Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 288
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 4:02 am: |
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Melinda,
I'd love to know more about the date of the research that you refer to. The most recent word that we have is that after the second stage of DNA testing was done (this done after the tentative identification of Eino Panula was made) that Eino Panula was proven NOT to be the Unknown Child and that Sidney Goodwin was proven TO be the Unknown Child.
Additionally, the shoes purported to have come from the body of the Unknown Child were tested and found to have NOT been exposed to salt water. The size of the shoes was one of the determining factors in ruling out Sidney Goodwin after just the first round of DNA testing was completed. Since the shoes could not have come from a body that had been floating in the sea for several days, their small size had no relation to the age of, or supposed age of the victim.
Final details have not yet been released on the timing of the DNA testing, but this positive identification of Sidney Goodwin was made public (sort of) just this April.
Tim Trower
www.titanicbranson.com
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Melinda Laura Varju
Member
Username: latterdaysaint
Post Number: 56
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 4:25 am: |
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Sort of, huh? Not so sure it seems. We will never know. it was the old one, I just saw it! I didn't even know my school is so awesome! We also have one of the best business and law school. GO COUGARS!
You know, I trust my school.
if they claimed that is was Eino geneatically, how can they claim it to be Sidney? if they can claim him to be Sidney, why not Eino? A 14 cm shoe size is more likely to belong to a 13 month old, than a 19 month old, IMO. It wasn't exposed to salt water? Come on! EVERYTHING must have been! The ship sank with 1500 people into the salt water. That analysis could be, and very well is, incorrect, so the shoes managed not to get wet? The ocean is salty, so anyhting submerged in it is exposed to salt water, not matter how small the quantity. My school rocks!
Laura |
Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 290
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 4:39 am: |
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Laura,
The shoes that are purported to be from the Unknown Child were not exposed to salt water. Ergo, they were never in the ocean. Therefore, the shoes cannot have been from a corpse found floating in the (salt) water of the Atlantic Ocean.
So, it really doesn't matter what size they were, or whose feet they would have fit. Since they were never exposed to salt water, and the corpse of the Unknown Child was found floating in the water, the two pieces of the puzzle have nothing to do with the other.
Quoting from an earlier post of mine on another thread: "But, there are two DNA tests that should have been conducted -- and the second was done only after the results had been made known from the first, less accurate test. The first showed that genetically the child could have been either of the Goodwin family or the Panula family. This test, coupled with the erroneous assumption that the shoes were indeed from the Unknown Child, led Ruffman to conclude that the Unknown Child was Eino.
"When the second round of DNA testing was conducted, it proved conclusively that the Unknown Child was not Eino and that it was Sidney. If the results of the first testing had been withheld until all of the DNA testing was done, then much if not all of the confusion and heartbreak of the mis-identity would have been avoided."
The information that a second, more definitive DNA test had proven that Sidney Goodwin was indeed the Unknown Child was made known by an attendee at the April 2007 Halifax convention. Phil Gowan first made mention of this on the www.Titanic-Titanic.com message board (sadly this thread, and everything for a two month span, was lost during a recent software upgrade), and Phil is not one to go off half-cocked on any issue, let alone one of this import.
So, while the early tests that you refer to infer that Eino Panula was the Unknown Child, further testing should have been done -- and was, eventually. The whole story should be quite telling, if it is ever released.
Tim Trower
www.titanicbranson.com
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 182
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 8:47 pm: |
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Little Sidney Goodwin was the unknown Child. OMG!
Knock me over with a feather. I remember reading of the Goodwins in TNLO.
>>The whole story should be quite telling, if it is ever released.<<
I'll say! Thanks Tim for the link.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton
Change is a good thing.
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 5:33 pm: |
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yo, that just makes the assumption that it is 50/50 as to who it could be. Why would they have bothered to announce that it was Eino, first, if they knew the second test was inconclusive,therefore, knowing they would have to later do an additional test. As for the shoes, i believe they were switched. How else can we account for the dry-with-no-salt-content-shoes-pulled-from-the-salty-Alantic-sea? It just makes more sense that someone wanted to keep them for whatever purpose. I said it once, and will say it again: That child belongs to my family, and his name is Eino Viljami Panula. We all have our own opinion and that is mine. |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3705
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:41 pm: |
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quote:That child belongs to my family, and his name is Eino Viljami Panula.
As I stated in the other thread to you, Hildur, like it or not, DNA results do not lie. If there wasn't an ounce of truth to this issue, Phil Gowan would not have mentioned it; he's not that type of researcher.
We'll just have to wait and see.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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Melinda Laura Varju
Member
Username: latterdaysaint
Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 12:50 am: |
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Ah, it is Sidney Leslie Goodwin! Oh poor baby. Thanks for the reply Tim. Oh poor little baby, really, the GOODWIN family was the first family who I read about when I was 15 and was interested in the Titanic and found this website 5 years ago. Ever since then, I loved Sidney.
But then WHY did they announce it was Eino so loud all over for sure?
Sorry Hildur, I trust these professional researchers. The baby is Sidney Goodwin. He probably looked more like age 2 at 19 months, as did Eino at 13 months.
Laura |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3711
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 1:19 am: |
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See Tim's post here, where he already addressed your question, Laura: (Post Number 233)
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5811/119870.html?1178724897
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 297
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:24 am: |
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It is really a shame that incomplete DNA tests were used to seemingly rush an identity of the Unknown Child. Painstaking as it may be to follow all protocols correctly, you must do so to avoid a false match.
The family of Eino Panula was given reason -- strong reason -- to believe that young Eino was the body in the grave of the Unknown Child. With all of the publicity and attention given this announcement; with family members attending the grave site for a memorial; with closure being given that family for the loss of that little one -- I can only shake my head that anyone allowed this all to happen without checking both DNA markers.
Now, we have complete test results that show that no, the body is not that of Eino -- oh, sorry, Panula family -- you went through all of that for nothing -- but that of Sidney Goodwin, a child closer in age to what the coroner estimated, and a complete match for the completed DNA testing.
I don't blame Hildur for being upset about the sudden change in the story. I'd be as mad as h--- myself if a team of researchers had lead me down the same path that the Panula family has been forced to trod.
I also don't blame Hildur for not wanting to believe that the Unknown Child isn't her relative, but that of another family. Again, she was told by an authority figure that the child's body was that of Eino, and was no doubt shown the very evidence that supported the claim. Now, that very foundation has been cruelly yanked from beneath her and her family -- the science lied!
The shoes, even if they still had salt incrusted on them, would not have any bearing on the identity of the Unknown Child because the DNA testing is not tied to the shoes, but to the genetic information found in the remains of the child. Allowing the shoes to become supporting evidence was wrong no matter how you slice it. Add to this the simple fact that the shoes were never exposed to salt water, and you have to come to one of two conclusions: a) the body of the Unknown Child was dumped into the ocean head first and continued to float that way with the feet in the air until recovered or b) they have no connection with any Titanic victim.
The villain in this unfortunate case of mistaken identity is anyone who rushed this identity without taking the time to run the second set of DNA testing.
Hildur, I am sorry that this has become an issue, and really regret that you, and your family, have been used as props in this case. Really, the shoes have no bearing on the identity of the Unknown Child. The DNA testing is the key, and I directly challenge Mr. Ruffman to immediately publish the complete story of the identity of Sidney Goodwin and the mis-identity of Eino Panula.
The facts may hurt -- few people like to admit they are wrong -- but Ruffman's silence is only continuing to hurt people like Hildur Panula-Heinonen.
Tim Trower
www.titanicbranson.com
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13287
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 5:48 am: |
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>>As for the shoes, i believe they were switched.<<
Hildur, as already stated, the shoes are entirely irrelvant to this mess. They issue is what did the DNA tests reveal and that's where the debate both begins and ends. You could have put a dozen new and old shoes, some soaked in brine and some brand new, and they would not have made a dimes worth of difference since these things not tested. There was no reason for them to be. None. If they had been, the DNA tests would have revealed that cattle had been buried in that grave, not somebody's baby.
The fragments that were tested were that which was beyond any question or doubt human remains.
I don't blame you for being upset about this. Not in the least. I would be too if I were in your position and I would bloody well be demanding some straight up answers to how and why this whole fiasco happened in the first place. The people who messed this up have a thing or dozen to answer for.
Reality, however, is that which persists in being there even though we refuse to believe in it, and the reality here is that the full and properly carried out testing protocols points to Master Sidney Goodwin.
Opinion is irrelevant.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 210
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 8:48 am: |
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>>The DNA testing is the key, and I directly challenge Mr. Ruffman to immediately publish the complete story of the identity of Sidney Goodwin and the mis-identity of Eino Panula.<<
I second that challenge.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton
Change is a good thing.
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Luke Owens
Member
Username: lukeowens
Post Number: 15
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 2:53 pm: |
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>>the science lied<<
Beg to differ, Tim. Science does NOT lie, but scientists can and do. That said, I have to agree with you and Michael about Hildur's reaction. I would be royally ticked off under those circumstances, too. I can't blame her a bit.
Luke |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 148
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:16 pm: |
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this is a cut version of a google-found page.
HALIFAX - In a city heavy with grief, laden with the task of recovering and burying Titanic's dead, the most poignant moments were reserved for a little boy no one knew.
On a sombre Saturday after the Titanic struck an iceberg and sank off the coast of Newfoundland, hundreds of folks in Halifax crowded into St. George's Anglican Church to mourn the death of an innocent -- a toddler who became known simply as the Unknown Child.
Pallbearers were six of the crew from the Mackay-Bennett, one of the ships from Halifax tasked with the gruesome detail of pulling perished souls from the icy Atlantic. Although 1,523 passengers died when the Titanic went down, the boy was one of the first recovered.
[Moderator's notes: 1. Edited post to remove copyrighted article. 2. For the rest of the story, click on the link below that Hildur refers to. JDT]
What of this? |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 149
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:18 pm: |
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I am pissed off not over the child's identity, but rather that for years of belief, since i was a very small child, my relatives had told me stories upon stories that Eino had died on Titanic, and my grandmother had told me that she had a feeling that it was Eino in the grave. No lie.
When my family was contacted about DNA, we were told there were three children that DNA descendents would be coming from, from Finland, Sweden and England. Obviously they jumped to conclusion when the first test excluded who they though it was, and that being Gosta. The test had proved with a higher percentage that it was Eino. A second test was considered inconclusive, and in a sense, since they had a name, unworthy, and unimportant.
When my family found out it was Eino, my grandmother told me that she had known it for years. In the few years that followed the identification, they family held strong to the belief, and what seemed to be prove of where our eternal young was buried. On our family records we had actually written down where he was buried next to his name. We took several flights down over time, to grieve, including me and my small sister. We were there on what would have been his 96 birthday in March.
My family was never informed of an additional DNA test. To us it seemed cut and dried. That’s what they told us, and for five years that is what we believed. When I started to read these posts, I thought ‘How ridiculous! Don’t they know it is Eino?’ I told my family and most of them don’t believe it because we have been told and reassured it was Eino. Nothing else. The child is Eino, and no one else. So obviously we believed it and the DNA. My grandmother is very upset after I told here, and actually showed her your posts(hope that doesn’t bother you )she is upset and can’t understand the meaning behind it. After we have been told so long it was him, and no one else, it seems in a sense to her wrong that suggestions would be made that it was someone else. Surely you can see that from our point of view. I am planning to get to the bottom of this because this has caused so much pain and difficulty in the family. I am personally, and I may not be the only one in my family, possibly planning to sue who ever told us it was him, and failed to inform us of another possibility, and causing my family so much hell. My grandmother is furious and wants the finalized prove, even if it is not Eino. She wants answers and proper and official closure, as do we all. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13295
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:25 pm: |
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I would "Third" Tim's call to publish the full and complete story or what happened in this matter from the misidentification to the corrected identification. Realistically, I don't think any of us have the sort of pull that anyone needs to much care what any of us call for, but what's needed in this is full exposure. Bring some daylight into this whole story.
This whole thing came to light several months ago and the silence from the people who have done the DNA testing is noteworthy for being a screamer. This was all conducted in the public view, for obviously public consumption. Not only does the public deserve to know what's going on, there are two families involved in this who...as far as I'm concerned...have an absolute right to a full a candid explaination.
So far, no such explaination has been forthcoming. Why is this?
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13296
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:28 pm: |
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Hildur, did you have permission to publish the whole of that article above? If not, I would have to ask you to edit the thing down to a paragraph or two and provide a link to the rest. Copyright issues are taken very seriously here.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 150
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:36 pm: |
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Man this is devastating and really bothering me. We went there so many times to mourn him, i talked to him, comemoration him, calling him Eino, and now i am told i was talking to a child who had no idea what i was saying in Finnish. All these we had thought it was him. We lived our lives knowing he was there. This is heartbreaking.I need more conformation |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13299
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:44 pm: |
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Hidldur, all I can say is that you and your family have every right to be bothered. For the world, this matter is an abstract of history, but for you, it's family and that makes it personal.
Very personal.
Somebody jumped the gun here in a very big way and I find it intriguing that those responsible for this are not falling all over themselves to give a full and candid account of what happened.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 152
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:57 pm: |
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Is it okay now Michael? Forgive me, i was not thinking clearing, and therefore forgot ( i know it sounds lame, but it's true) about copywrite, when i threw it one here. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13303
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 5:25 pm: |
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>>Is it okay now Michael?<<
What you need to do is edit the article down to a couple of paragraphs and provide the link to the page. If it's too late for you to do a further edit, just post the link and one of us freindly mods will take care of the rest.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 156
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 5:33 pm: |
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Okay, thank you Michael, and other friendly mods.
This is where i got it from:
http://davidstonehouse.com/articles/unknown_child.htm |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 214
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 10:04 pm: |
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Hildur>> I am personally, and I may not be the only one in my family, possibly planning to sue who ever told us it was him, and failed to inform us of another possibility, and causing my family so much hell. My grandmother is furious and wants the finalized prove, even if it is not Eino.<<
Hildur, I for one say more power to you. If someone lead me down the road you and your family were lead down, I'd be angry as well as upset. I for one understand how you would be feeling. It's like you having to lose your loved one all over again. You have my Heartfelt Sympathy and Best Wishes for you and your family.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton
Change is a good thing.
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 158
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 10:16 pm: |
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Thank you George, yes it has been like losing him again, because we were so certain we knew where he was, and now it is like we were talking to a stranger. When i first went to this post and someone had posted another test had been done and had said to be Sidney, it felt like someone poured ice water over me. So much tests and still unconfirmed.
I do wonder. Everyone says two tests were done:
1st test turned out to be Eino Panula,
2nd test proved to be Sidney Goodwin.
Does'nt that make it 50/50? I wonder why Eino was broadcasted to be the Unknown child in 2002, and when now people say it is Sidney, and yet there is no news at all? Or was there? I mean, we wrote in our family trees that Eino was buried in Halifax,and we have gone through a lot of hassle going out there to mourn him and try to let him rest, several times since we were told it was him. This is getting to be ridiculas. I want to know who it is, and so does the rest of the world.
I do want them to do a final test to absoultly with no doubt confirm who this child is and who he belongs to. My family and i deserve to know. |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 159
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 10:18 pm: |
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Thanks for everyone who has been helping me with this. I thank you all very much, you don't know how much this means to me. |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3719
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 10:52 pm: |
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Hildur,
You have every right to be upset about this, and you and your family deserve to be told the absolute truth. Whoever is responsible, should have to pay for the pain that they caused you.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 216
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:02 pm: |
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Hildur>> My family and I deserve to know.<<
I'll say. I hope they also send you and your family an apology as well. Apologies are free and it's the least they can do.
They should have told you that they still had tests to do and were not a 100% percent certain as to the identity of the remains in Halifax.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton
Change is a good thing.
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Melinda Laura Varju
Member
Username: latterdaysaint
Post Number: 61
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 12:00 am: |
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Yeah, I DO think they should have informed you that it was Sidney, now that I think about it. I feel like as long as there is a match, they call and call, want to know more info (DNA tests...) and after they actually confirm, they are like you never existed. That's my opinion. I'm sorry about that Hildur, whoever the Unknown Child is, bless his heart, he died so young. All of these deaths are tragic, all of them. |
Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 300
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 1:22 am: |
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Hildur,
I am not a DNA expert, but understand enough about the process to see where Ruffman and company went wrong, and therein lies the problem with the first erroneous identification.
The first DNA test was done to provide a close match -- call it a 90% probability, although I do not have those results in front of me. These are the results that showed there was a high probability that the Unknown Child was either Eino or Sidney, but not Gosta.
Since the shoes were mistakenly believed to be from the body of the Unknown Child -- and they were too small for a near two year old like Sidney Goodwin, it was then assumed that since the shoes would probably have fit Eino, and since the first test said it was either Eino or Sidney (and, of course, the shoes wouldn't fit a child the size of Sidney) ergo, the Unknown Child must have been Eino.
Now, the shoes. Since they were never exposed to sea water, and just as importantly, there is no verified chain of evidence with the shoes that links them to a body from the Titanic, they cannot and do not have any link to Sidney, Gosta, Eino or any other child that was a victim of the sinking. Yes, the shoes do seem to be too small for Sidney, but we now know that it doesn't matter -- they were never on the feet of Eino, either.
Somebody at some time in the recent past started to spur Mr. Ruffman into concluding the DNA testing -- halted after only the first set of tests were concluded. It is this second set of tests that look for identical genetic markers between the subject (the Unknown Child) and the family members that gave their DNA for comparison.
This is the test that proved that the Unknown Child is Sidney Goodwin, and that sadly proved that the body of Eino Panula was indeed claimed by the sea.
Again, I repeat that those who were responsible for rushing this mistaken identity are the ones who are directly answerable to the Panula family. The heartache and now the agony that you and your family have been put through is barely short of criminal.
You, and your family, are owed a full and clear explanation of the mistaken identification of the Unknown Child, and I again also call on Alan Ruffman to provide a full and complete report on each stage of the testing -- as well as an explanation of why a tentative identification was given such weight when the only supporting piece of evidence were a pair of shoes that were never on the Titanic.
Luke Owens mentioned above that I was wrong in stating that the science lied. He is correct -- the scientists lied, not the science. And you, Hildur, are the one that is suffering as a result.
One other note -- there is no problem on my part in letting your grandmother or any other member of your family read my posts. I am sure that the other members that have also posted probably feel the same way. I just wish that there was some way that I could help beyond mere words.
All the best,
Tim
Tim Trower
www.titanicbranson.com
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13306
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 4:45 am: |
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>>This is where i got it from:
http://davidstonehouse.com/articles/unknown_child.htm<<
Got it, Hildur. Jason took care of the edit. As to the rest, I whole heartedly agree with what everyone else has been saying here. The people behind this fiasco have much to answer for. You're family should never have had to suffer through this.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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John Clifford
Member
Username: hjca
Post Number: 1135
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 5:34 am: |
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quote:The people behind this fiasco have much to answer for. You're family should never have had to suffer through this.
I agree "100%" with Michael's statement. "Ruffman and Company" have created, IMO, "a collosal calamity" and inflicted unnecessary heartbreak to Hildur and her family.
Hildur, it would have been wonderful for you and your family to know that it was your ancestor buried at that plot in the Fairview Cemetery.
However, to me this travesty (my own term) has made it clear that "Ruffman and Company" would have done better to have left things alone.
What has happened here is awful, worse than if we continued to believe that it was Gosta Paullson buried near his mother.
John Clifford
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 162
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 4:44 pm: |
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Thank you all. My grandmother is planning to call/make contact to Alan Ruffman or someone to give us answers. Money is not what i want, nor does my family. Money cannot take the place of our little loved one. We are simply wanting an answer and a clear explanation. An apology would be nice. My grandma is so devastated.
I feel crappy knowing that my grandma's grandma who died in 2004 aged
99, who knew Eino and his family (she was Maija's niece) died believing Eino was buried in Halifax. Now she will never know.
I just hope "Ruffman and Company" have the minds to apologize.
Another thing:
why if the 1st test excluded Gosta, and included Eino and Sidney, would it be announced Eino was the child? Was it just some crazy person looking for five minutes of fame.
And also, why did they, at that moment realizing they still had two possibilities, not do an additional test(at that time, before release) to conclude which of the toddlers matched more closely.
Does anyone know if the Goodwin descendents know anything about the testing and result? I would imagine they would because they had to give DNA, but why is it not being covered in the media like Eino? |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 222
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 6:53 pm: |
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>> Does anyone know if the Goodwin's descendants know anything about the testing and result? I would imagine they would because they had to give DNA, but why is it not being covered in the media like Eino?<<
Hildur maybe the Goodwin descendants when they gave their DNA stipulated that they didn't want any reporters bugging them or any interviews. They might not have know about the recent DNA findings. You have some good questions that I hope you receive answers to.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton
Change is a good thing.
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Paul Lee
Member
Username: dpl
Post Number: 1762
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 10:05 pm: |
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Alan Ruffman said that he and Dr.Parr won't comment on the issue. He said that, "Dr. Parr and I are now preparing an article for a peer-reviewed scientific
journal and will not be speaking publically on the matter again until that has
been through the review process and hopefully has been accepted for
publication."
So, more grief and heartache for the Panula descendants. Perhaps blame must lie at the doors of the TV company. Maybe they pushed the DNA results through prematurely without full checking. Maybe. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13312
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:50 am: |
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>>Maybe they pushed the DNA results through prematurely without full checking.<<
It wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened. Not to put too fine a point on this, but holding off on commenting until everything had been done by the numbers and the results published in the appropriate peer-reviewed scientific journal is what should have happened in the first place.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 301
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 3:03 am: |
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Paul Lee posted: "Alan Ruffman said that he and Dr.Parr won't comment on the issue. He said that, "Dr. Parr and I are now preparing an article for a peer-reviewed scientific journal and will not be speaking publically on the matter again until that has been through the review process and hopefully has been accepted for publication.""
Maybe that should read "We are going to delay as long as possible our explanation in hopes that everyone forgets about the issue by the time our article comes out."
Tim Trower
www.titanicbranson.com
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John Clifford
Member
Username: hjca
Post Number: 1140
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 6:17 am: |
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quote:Alan Ruffman said that he and Dr.Parr won't comment on the issue.
and
quote:"Dr. Parr and I are now preparing an article for a peer-reviewed scientific
journal and will not be speaking publically on the matter again until that has
been through the review process and hopefully has been accepted for
publication."
That seems to sound like "We've already found ourselves in over our head, so we better stop digging".
To that phrase add: "Since we're already up to our 'backsides' in alligators, we better first drain the swamp".
First off: please forgive my pessimism, and to Hildur: sorry if this sounds, in any way, insensitive based on what happened to your family.
However, it appears that Mr. Ruffman, who, I seem to recall, spoke at the BTS Convention in April, about the process of identifying the unknown child (unfortunately I missed his lecture) and who encouraged Ralph White to bring up the topic of "Ballard vs Nargeolet" (to the disgust of some of the Convention attendees) is now in the unfortunate position of having to explain why, IN MY OPINION, AND MINE, ALONE, a publicity gimmick has gone awry and caused unnecessary pain to the Panula descendants, when a bit of caution and discretion, would have easily alleviated this situation.
This reminds me of an advertising gimmick used by an insurance company (advising against paying too much for your policY): they explain how one can do the crazy thing (such as wearing a Tigger costume when you go to work), easily, followed by the best reason not to (like my supervisor would "go ballistic"); that is followed by "Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should".
This whole debacle, IMO, has become worse than if nothing was done at all, regarding "who was the 'unknown child'".
John Clifford
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Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 571
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 10:11 am: |
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What boggles me is that why Alan Ruffman commented at all about it being Sidney Goodwin when-
1. He has not contacted the Panula family first and explained what happened.
2. He and Ryan Parr finished their article.
He had to have known people would have questions and concerns once he mentioned his new discovery at the BTS convention. It was most likely the Panula family would find out second hand through strangers (which they did).
Sitting on stuff is called, 'squatty toad syndrome'.
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 163
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 4:20 pm: |
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I wonder what will happen from here, now that we have a new name and a new child. |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 243
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 4:30 am: |
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Good question Hildur. I don't know about relabeling Sidney's grave. To me that poor child will always stand for all the children who were lost and all the wasted opportunities those children never had. The children of the Titanic who lost their lives on the night the ship sank and didn't get the chance to realize their potential. Although I'm glad for the Goodwin's sake that they finally found out what happened to Sidney. I still think that who ever made the mistake of telling you they identified the Unknown Child as Eino, should at least should send you and your family an apology for the heartache they caused.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton
Change is a good thing.
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 303
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 5:23 am: |
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Well, I'd sure like to know what the rest of the team that was involved in the exhumations and subsequent testing of the remains of the Unknown Child have to say about the gross mis-handling of this entire case.
I've just spent a profitable hour or two sifting through the old threads dealing with this subject, and, although I'm not going to second guess the family members involved, I will echo the remarks that Jason Tiller posted on May 21, 2001: "... It has been 89 years since the Titanic sank, why is this happening now?
"I respect the families rights to know if they are related to the victims and to have closure, but the graves should not be disturbed. ... What difference will it make? This is ghastly and totally wrong.
"Hopefully, this will not turn into a three ring circus. As Phil (Hind) said at the beginning of this thread, "whatever happened to resting in peace"? ..."
Jason, you really nailed it. Just think of the heartache that has been caused by someone's slipshod methods.
Tim Trower
www.titanicbranson.com
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 13324
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 4:00 pm: |
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Tim, I suspect...though I could be wrong...that the rest of the team involved in the exhumations is bound by some sort of non-disclosure agreement. Absent that, quite a few of them may not be in a position to really know the whole story. It wouldn't be the first time the metephorical right hand had no clue what they left hand was up to.
All else aside, in light of the fireworks over this mess, some may not be anxious to call attention to their involvement with it.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3727
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 9:47 pm: |
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Tim,
quote:Just think of the heartache that has been caused by someone's slipshod methods.
I can't imagine it. Alan Ruffman has a lot to answer for, to the Panula family.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 304
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 12:34 am: |
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Michael,
Yeah, that was more of a rhetorical question; as you say, many of the team would probably want to distance themselves from the ongoing discussion even if they are not bound by a NDA.
Tim Trower
www.titanicbranson.com
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Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 169
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 7:55 pm: |
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I don't think they will put a name on the stone, because they probably would have out Eino's on there first when they thought it was him. I really think it will stay just as it is.
I do wonder, that if this really is Sidney, i wonder if his relatives will want to take him home or leave him where he is. I imagine they would leave him a a symbol.
Has there been any press meetings? |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 274
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 6:48 pm: |
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Hildur >>Has there been any press meetings?<<
None that I've heard of.
I wonder myself Hildur, what the Goodwin relations have planned. Sidney's immediate family were all lost in the sinking and none of their bodies were recovered so there is no family to bury him by so they will probably leave him were he is. As for giving him a name on the stone, like you I hope they leave it blank or put a stone next to it as a marker for little Sidney.
Cordially,
George L. Lorton
Change is a good thing.
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