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Message |
    
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 188
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 3:38 pm: | 
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Okay, so I know this is a pretty crappy thing to post, seeing as I can't show the pic( I don’t have a way to get it on the computer), but I thought a description might help to find out if anyone else has this pic, or maybe just to find possibilities as to who is in the pic. I bought a book at a second hand store, and this page was used as a bookmark(the page had pics from Titanic, but was ripped out of another book). It has written underneath the photo:
'This is one of the few photographs taken of survivors third-class passengers.'
The page is double sided on white paper, and all the pics are black and white. The pages are
191-which has the pic we are discussing, and the famous pic of the young newspaper boy delivering the tragic evening news,
the back of the page (this one is 192)
Shows a diagram in the top showing the original plans to include 32 lifeboats,
and the bottom is a pic of the ice barrier drawn out on a graph type paper.
So if it sounds familiar, please tell me!
And now, on to the pic!!
So I broke it down yesterday, after spending over an hour trying to figure it out. I tried to identify the children(9)and women (4) through a process( my favourite) of elimination.
I started to eliminate, obviously, the children that did not survive, as I thought the children would be an easier place to start(boy, was I wrong!), and the children I had photos of. That brought the list down considerably to 20 3rd-class children,(including both Nicola-Yarred's)
The children I am looking at are:
Edvin Asplund, 3 of Sweden ( I have his sister’s (Lilian) pic taken in 1912)
Marie, 5, Eugenie, 3, and Helene Baclini, 9m of Lebanon
Virginia Emanuel, 5, of America
Hildur Hirvonen, 2, of America(Finn-America)
Meier Moor, 6 of Russia
Gerios, 7, Halim Moubarek, 4, of Lebanon
Luise Kink-Heilmann, 4 of Switzerland
Maria Nackid, m 22m, of Lebanon
Elias, 12 and Jamila Nicola-Yarred, 14, of Syria
Artur Olsen, 9 of Norway
Michael Jr, 4, and Mary Peter/Joseph, 2 of Syria
Beatrice 20m, and Marguerite 4 Sandstrom of Sweden
Assad Thomas/Tannous 5m of Lebanon
Georges, 7 and Maria Tuoma, 9 of Lebanon
I have exempted Lillian Asplund, Philip Aks, William and Neville Coutts, Bertram and Millvina Dean, Eleanor and Harold Johnson, Manca Karun, and Frank Goldsmith, because I have pics of all of them taken in or around the time Titanic sank, and I know none of the kids in the in are any of the above. I have also eliminated 1st and 2nd class children, due to the pic’s writing saying they are all 3rd class. The next post will carry a detailed description of the children and women. |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 189
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 4:37 pm: |
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So this is , and I am trying my hardest to make a description of the people in the pic.
From left to wright:
(1) 20-30 year old women, thin build, with dark brown hair, does not appear to be of Lebanese/Syrian/Middle Eastern descent. Her clothes appear to be nice and neat, (a while blouse, and dark skirt), that pronounce her to be of a somewhat decent and respectable back round. She is sitting and on her lap is an:
(2) approximate 2-year old girl, with blonde hair, that appears to be of Scandinavian or English/American descent. Wearing a nice dark dress with light stripes on the front collar, and bottom collar, with light stockings and dark shoes. Does not appear to be of Middle Eastern descent. Does not appear to be older than 2, 2 ½. Quite possibly Hildur Hirvonen. Could be Beatrice Sandstrom.
(3) A young girl standing between women 1 and women 4. Girl has light brown hair, appears to be 4/5 years old, with a light flower/spot printed dress. Appears to be of the 3rd class (that is to say she is not wearing fancy clothes). She appears to be leaning more towards women 1, and not towards woman 4. Could be Marguerite Sandstrom.
(4) Woman with dark brown hair (evidently dark brown, and not black), between 20-30 years old, smiling in pic, and is wearing a light blouse, appears to be third class.
Arms are around child 5, an approximate 2 year old boy
(5) Approximate two-year old boy with light blonde hair, appears to be in the same age/size group of child 2. Is standing on women 4's lap, and wearing either a one piece thick plain dark outfit, or a heavy dark pants and jacket combo. Outfit is think/heavy and dark with no detail.
Child could be 20m-2 ½ years of age, and not older. Looks slightly younger than child 2.
(6) This is difficult as the child’s sex is not clearly identifiable. Wrapped in white blanket, and sitting on woman 7's lap. Appears to be, 18m-2 years old. Child has big smile, and has dark brown hair( dark brown, and not black). Nothing else to identify as child is wrapped in blanket. Possibly Maria Nackid.
(7) Woman that appears to be of Middle Eastern Descent. Around 22-27 years old, with a light blouse, and dark skirt, that is mostly covered by child 6's blanket. Appears to be of slight build( that is to say, not fat, or skinny, but a healthy sized women). Notably dark features, dark eyes, and black hair. Confidant to say women is of Syrian/Lebanese/Middle Eastern descent. Arms are around child 6.
(8) Women appears to be 20-25 years old, with notably dark brown or black hair. Is holding a young infant (9) in arms. Is wearing a dark skirt, a dark jacket with no detailing. Has a rather large nose and slightly crooked mouth. Face is refined. Nationality undetermined, possibly of Foreign Eastern European/ or Slavic descent.
(9) Infant , sex undetermined. Has some light hair (blonde), and appears to be 5-7 months old. Is wearing a light undetailed outfit and wrapped in light blanket, witting in women (8)’s arms. Wearing dark shoes or socks.
(10) Boy around 8-10 years old, with notably dark features. Confidant to say boy is of Syrian/Lebanese/Middle Eastern descent. Is sitting close to woman 8. Also sitting next, but slightly away from child 11. Boy has black hair, light shirt, dark jacket, with a light button, and dark shoes and pants. Has rather large nose and refined features, with dark skin.
(11) Girl around 5/6 years old. Middle-to-dark brown hair, slightly wavy/curly at bottom. Is wearing nice shaded dress(that is to say it is dark, but not a dark colour like black). Dress appears to be rather nice, and it has a plaid texture (not colour wise, but like what school girls, wear with the texture lines running straight down) Dress had a small belt same colour as dress. Is wearing dark shoes and dark stockings. Girl does not appear to be of Eastern European. Child is of more that likely English/America descent. Possibly Virginia Emanuel. Appears to be alone(with no one, like she was just placed there ) in the pic.
(12) Boy sitting on ground in front of girl 3 and women 4. Sitting next to child 13. Appears to be an older boy of around 10 years old. Appears to be of Syrian/Lebanese/Middle Eastern descent. Notably dark black hair, dark skin, and dark eyes. Is smiling in pic. I wearing dark pants, light shirt and dark(open) jacket. Dark shoes. Appears to be third class.
(13) Boy sitting on ground in front of woman 7 and child 6, sitting next to child 12. Is 8/9 years old. Boy appears to be of Syrian/Lebanese/Middle Eastern descent. Is wearing similar clothes to child 12. Dark pants, dark shoes, dark jacket (closed) with a bit of a light shirt poking out. Is wearing a light cap over his black hair. Has noticeably refined features and dark skin.
I am sorry that I can’t yet find a scanner (I am looking!), but given the descriptions I have come up with a few names for the children (written above), but no one can be sure. I broke down the third class children , but it does not seem to include the children in the pics. Some of the age groups are not included, so I wonder if any of you could help me out.
Hildur |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3798
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 5:52 pm: |
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Sounds like the photo which is reproduced on page 175 of Judith Geller's book 'Titanic - Women and Children First'. Identities (according to Ms Geller) are: Elias Nicola Yarred and George Borak (sitting in front); and in back row (left to right): Helga Hirvonen with daughter Hildur and Marguerite Sandstrom; unidentified mother and child; Mary Nackid and baby Maria; Antoinette Mallet and baby Andre; William Borak; Louise Kink. |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 190
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 7:04 pm: |
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Interesting. But why is Marguerite Sandstrom alone?
And are William and George Borak the same as Gerios and Halim Moubarek?
Also, this could be the pic, as it sounds quite familiar. Do you, yourself have any suggestions as to whom the unknown woman and baby could be?
Could the child possibly be Edvin Asplund? I know he is three, but he could be small for his age. It does fit the description somewhat? And maybe Mrs. Asplund? It would interesting to know why the children's relatives are not all in the pic.
Thanks very much for the information |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 191
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 7:06 pm: |
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As for Andre Mallet and his mother, were they not 2nd class? This page i have says they are all third class. Could just have been mistake, and maybe it really is them. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3799
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 7:59 pm: |
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Yes, the Moubareks anglicised their names at some time after arrival in the US. And the Mallets were indeed 2nd Class, but the photo is from a 1912 newspaper and the caption writer at that time assumed that the whole group was from 3rd Class. I'd guess that the photo was taken at St Vincent's hospital or a temporary hostel in new York. Whatever, these people were in the same place at the same time and probably quickly shepherded together for a Press shoot. There are any number of reasons why some family members might have been unavailable - bedridden, under treatment, etc. |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 3800
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 8:28 pm: |
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Regarding the 'unidentified' pair, the obvious candidates would be Mrs Sandstrom and her younger daughter. The only photo I've seen of Agnes Sandstrom is none too clear, and neither is this one. There is a resemblance, but I can't be sure. |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 192
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 12:19 am: |
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Yes, the Sandstroms would fit in to the pic nicely. |
Holly Peterson
Member
Username: alzbeta
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 5:09 pm: |
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Yes, the 'unidentified' woman and toddler are definitely Agnes and Beatrice Sandstrom. I've seen a very clear photo of them and they are identical to the woman and toddler in this photo.
Glad to have been of any assitance,
Alzbeta |
Melissa Borgioli
Member
Username: melissajcb
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 7:17 pm: |
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Have you been able to scan or post this photo? I would love to see it. |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 319
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 9:41 pm: |
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Okay, so i recently took to trying to identify the people in the photo and i have come to the conclusion that Antoinette and Andre Mallet could not possibly be the mother and infant it the photo. Andre was 22m, and the infant appears less than 7. I also don't think Luise Kink-Heilmann is in the photo either, i think it's Virginia Ethel Emanuel, based on the child dressed in "American" style clothing, as apposed to European.
This is who i believe to be in the photo:
Hildur and Helga Hirvonen,
Marguerite, Agnes and Beatrice Sandstrom,
Mariyah and Waika Nackid,
Thelma and Essed Thomas,
Gerios Mubarik
Virginia Emanuel
Elias Nicola-Yarred
Gerios Youssef Tuoma,
and in that order (left to right, with the last two being in front) |
Hildur Panula-Heinonen
Member
Username: titanic_relatives
Post Number: 324
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 5:07 pm: |
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It seems i have been corrected: the young girl in the photo is LUISE KINK-HEILMANN, and not Ethel/Virginia Emanuel (as i had thought). |
George Pastarmatzis
Member
Username: fm123sparti
Post Number: 337
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 3, 2009 - 7:22 pm: |
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Hi everyone! Does anyone have more info on the Greek victims of Titanic? Thanks in advance ...
George Pastarmatzis
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