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Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 522
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 2:49 pm: | 
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Thanks for sharing that, Ben. Do you know off the top of your head if there were any in-depth obits?
Grant, I know I've posted a link to a genealogy website detailing Tyrell's ancestors and descendants. Both of his sons married and there are certainly living descendants. |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 524
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 3:14 pm: |
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Here's an article written on him last year:
http://www.youandyesterday.co.uk/articles/etc.
It's from a local paper and discusses a great-aunt who lived in that area a good deal more than it discusses Mr. Cavendish's parents. It does contain a couple of photos of him, however, revealing a man with 1930's-film star good looks.
It also mentions that his daughter, Caroline Aliaga-Kelly, lives in New Zealand. I thought she lived in Ireland.
The Daily Telegraph carried a brief death notice, simply detailing that he was a descendant of Lord Waterpark, and the names of his parents (with a mention of the manner of his father's death), wives, children, children-in-law, and grandchildren. |
Jason D. Tiller
Moderator
Username: jtiller
Post Number: 3782
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 6:55 pm: |
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Brian,
That link doesn't work, so here is the direct one:
Geoffrey Cavendish
A very interesting article. Thanks for sharing.
"To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
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tania romaine
Member
Username: mrs_j_f_cavendish
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 5:46 pm: |
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once again thanks thanks for all this feel to talk to me |
Ben Holme
Member
Username: benedict
Post Number: 696
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 6:02 pm: |
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Hi Brian, Grant and all,
Sorry for the belated reply. I found a couple of obits, but they appear to be the same ones you've posted recently links to. Many thanks for those. The photograph bears a passing resemblance to Tyrell.
It appears he won't be buried at Golders Green along with his parents.
Best regards,
Ben |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 526
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 12:29 am: |
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Okay, I've barely been on ET at all in recent weeks. I've been busy researching Titanic passengers in newspaper archives and have amassed a king's ransom of info on people such as the Cavendishes (mostly Julia's family), as well as the Clarks, Harders, Hippachs and a slew of others.
One thing I discovered was that Julia had a stepmother. Julia Rosenbaum Siegel died when her daughter was small, but in 1898, Henry Siegel married Mrs. Marie Vaughan Wilde, a widow with two daughters named Georgine and Dorothy.
For the first dozen years of their marriage, the names of the Henry Siegels appeared discreetly in society pages as they attended very choice events. Marie Siegel’s outfits were often written about in detail, whether she was dining at Sherry’s, attending the National Horse Show, or was a “First Tier Box Holder” (not quite sure what that entailed) at the Charity Ball of 1902 (of which Colonel Astor and Dr. John S. Tanner – Virginia Clark’s second husband – were patrons).
They acquired “Driftwood”, their house in Mamaroneck, as well houses at Park Avenue and 88th Street in New York, and on Park Lane in London. It seems that they acquired art voraciously and entertained lavishly. When their country home was robbed in 1907, papers were full of speculations about which of their treasures might have been taken.
Georgine Wilde married Count Count Carlo Dentice di Frasso (accounts vary as to his Christian name and whether he was a count or a prince, but this version is the most widely used) at the Oratory in Brompton, London in 1906. It was witnessed by an impressive assemblage that included the Italian and American ambassadors and various titled continentals (no English aristos mentioned). The Siegels gave a wedding breakfast at Claridge’s. Julia, soon to be married herself, served as a bridesmaid for her stepsister.
The di Frasso marriage was annulled in 1921. Georgine took to calling herself “Mrs. Georgine Wilde” until her marriage later that year to Pietro Alfredo Guazzone, First Secretary of the Italian Embassy in Tokyo. He was reportedly the son of Guiseppe Guazzone, described as “President of the Board of Administration” of steamship lines operating between Italy, the US, and Argentina.
Georgine was again “Mrs. Wilde” by the time she married William Douglas Burt of Providence, RI in 1929. Her first husband, the Count, married another American in 1923. She was “Mrs.” Dorothy Cadwell Taylor, daughter of Bertram Taylor of New York (it seems divorcees often reverted to their maiden names, but kept the “Mrs.”). Her first husband had been British aviator Claude Grahame-White.
Julia’s other stepsister – Dorothy Violet Wilde – married Earl Joseph Moon of St. Louis in 1914 (Earl being his first name and not a title). This marriage ended in divorce before Dorothy married Dr. Frank E. Adair, an Ohio native and New York Surgeon, in 1922. She was walked up the aisle by family friend Schuyler Roosevelt. That’s one thing about Marie and her daughters – they might have been down socially at times, but they were never out.
Dorothy’s second marriage also ended in divorce. I’m guessing it was before either marriage that she studied music in Paris under Jean de Reszke. She ultimately had modest success as a composer, writing a song played by the Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra at its Young People’s Christmas Concert of 1945 (I did say modest success!).
Marie left Henry and went to live abroad in 1909 or 1910. Her suit for divorce, his bankruptcy and various indictments – all occurring in 1914 – were splashy in the extreme.
Siegel operated several banks in conjunction with his department stores. All told, the banks were reported to have some 15,000 depositors. When the banks went under in 1913, Siegel was wiped out. He was indicted on fourteen counts related to helping himself to his depositors’ money, and went to prison for nine months.
Marie Siegel was granted her divorce in 1915, having torn her husband’s name to shreds and named two women – Mrs. Diana Eddy and Miss May Smith – as correspondents in her suit. Both women hotly contested the charge. Mrs. Eddy had supposedly visited Driftwood many times and was variously described as a singer and as a friend of Julia’s. She was reluctant to testify and, during the height of the Siegel fiasco, married James Salisbury Brown of Providence, RI (later claiming her wedding was mobbed by reporters), and blew town. Her lawyers, it seems, convinced her to return and testify; though I’m not sure if she was ultimately called.
Miss Smith was described as a nurse from Toronto who had nursed Henry Siegel through an illness in 1911. She hired a lawyer, claiming that Marie’s accusations had damaged her reputation and her ability to earn a living, and said she would sue. She was dropped from the suit.
During their divorce, reports of how Henry and Marie had ever come together in the first place were varied. She was the widow of George M. Wilde. I’m not sure who he was, other than that he was usually described as the brother of Rear Admiral Wilde USN.
At least one account had Marie living in Virginia during her first marriage, which may well be true, as she and her daughters were well-known in the fashionable Virginia resort of Hot Springs, and continued to visit it for decades after her marriage to Siegel.
A NY Times article had it that Marie’s husband left her with paltry resources, and so she had left Virginia to look for work in New York. While writing for a newspaper, she interviewed Siegel, and he offered her a job in one of his stores. She accepted this, and not long afterwards accepted his offer of marriage.
Marie, however, bristled at the claim that she had ever worked for her bread. She released a public statement, signed in her lawyer’s office, saying that she wanted to set the record straight because there had been so many misstatements about her divorce and her “prior status”.
The statement read, in part, “I came to New York to visit my first husband’s cousins, Mr. and Mrs. George Cotton Chase, wholesale tea importers of Front Street, who were well-known both socially and financially and at whose luxurious home on West Eighty-Fifth Street, Mr. Siegel and I were married on April 24th, 1898. I was first introduced to Mr. Siegel by friends at a dinner party. He never offered, nor did I accept, employment in his stores.”
Marie’s version of her roots is probably closer to the truth. Her 1938 obituary described her as the daughter of Judge John Greene Vaughan of Illinois, and a graduate of Miss Evans’s School of Cincinnati, the St. Louis School of Fine Arts, and the law school of New York University (she did obtain a law certificate from the university in 1899 – I’m not sure if this was an actual degree). Among her affiliations was the Daughters of the American Revolution.
And though rich and, evidently, charismatic, Henry Siegel was also a self-made Jew, and it seems unlikely that he would have enjoyed the social position he did if he were married to a former shopgirl.
When they separated, Henry reportedly agreed to pay his wife $25,000 a year, which obviously became impossible after his downfall. Marie claimed that she had agreed to this to avoid a scandal, and when he could no longer pay, she saw no more reason to spare him and every reason to divorce him and “secure her rights”.
She became one in a very long list of people trying to get money out of her husband, and doesn’t seem to have had much luck. A judge granted a writ of attachment against her to the private investigator who claimed to have helped her dig up dirt on her husband and whom she was apparently unable to pay.
When creditors descended on the Siegel homes and possessions, Marie claimed that many of the things were her property and should not be subject to her husband’s liabilities. Included in the long list of items she named were a gilded bedroom set that had belonged to Queen Isabella of Spain, rare sets of Thackeray and Kipling, a green marble candlestick presented by the Princess de Croy, and an engraving of Sir Walter Raleigh “and Friends” that was signed by each of them.
In her statement, she said, “My married life with Mr. Siegel was full of trials and tribulations. Suffice it to say I endeavored in every way to guard and protect him from his own weaknesses and his lack of consideration for the feelings and rights of others.”
She said that she had learned “incidentally” that he was defrauding his depositors and remonstrated with him that it would end in his ruin, but that he only responded by treating her worse than ever. She expressed her belief that he had deliberately driven her out of the country to keep her quiet (it seems Siegel was thought to have been engaging in shady practices even before his banks went down).
There had apparently been charges on Henry’s part that Marie’s extravagance had played a part in his ruin. Marie said, “My books will show and I have only one set, that in no year, even when Mr. Siegel was accredited with having an income exceeding several thousand dollars a year, did he give me over $24,000 a year with which to maintain the expenses of his elaborate establishments.”
She claimed that his money went towards other women and bad business practices.
Interestingly, she also said, “Mr. Siegel attempts to account for some of his so-called ‘losses’ by the statement that he made settlements upon my daughter and his daughter on their marriages. This is absolutely untrue. He settled on neither girl one penny, but he gave some fine promises.”
So far from having been enriched by marriage to her daughter, she claimed that Count di Frasso’s family was nearly ruined by it. They allegedly had to sue Henry to get back money they had invested with him, and nearly lost their substantial olive vineyards.
Marie commiserated with those who had supposedly been defrauded by her husband, saying she would gladly get all their money back for them, but that she was in the same boat.
Informed of his wife’s statement, Siegel was said to respond, “Why, you don’t mean it?” and to refuse to give any other comment.
I think that we should hesitate about drawing decisive conclusions regarding Henry or Marie from all of this. Divorce laws were such at this time that Marie would have had to paint Henry in a horrible light to have any hope of the court granting her a divorce. And though she is cast in an unflattering light herself, it should be remembered that a) nobody is at their best during a divorce b) she was under very unwelcome scrutiny and c) her situation was a desperate one and had to be frightening.
One interesting detail is that Julia may well have retained a sisterly relationship with Dorothy Wilde Adair, even after their respective parents went through the nasty divorce. The society page of the NYTimes in June of 1928 contained the brief blurb “Mrs. Frank E. Adair sailed for England early today to visit Mrs. Tyrell Cavendish in London.”
After her divorce, Marie resumed her first husband’s name. She was granted no alimony from Siegel, but was given the option to seek it later if his circumstances improved. Her obituary – while mentioning that her daughter (by then Georgine Burt) was “the former Countess di Frasso – made no mention of the fact that she herself had once been married to Henry.
From what I’ve been able to learn about Marie’s life after the divorce, two conclusions can be drawn – that she was not a foolish or trivial individual; and that, however she managed it, she landed on her feet.
According to her obituary and to various other newspaper mentions, from 1916 to 1919, she was a “deputy internal revenue collector attached to the Intelligence Department”. She was also an Assembly delegate for New York’s wealthy Fifteenth District at the 1921 New York State Republican Convention, and served for years as an officer and vice-president of the district’s Republicans. From 1919 to 1923, she was chairman of the legislative committee of the Women’s Republican Club; and was a Republican Presidential Elector in 1924.
Before the US entered WWI, she established an organization to aid American volunteers in the French Aviation Service. She also founded the Women’s Auxiliary of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine; and in addition to the Daughters of the American Revolution, belonged to the New York Historical Society and American Society of Psychical Research.
When she died, she was living in an apartment at the Park Lane Hotel on Park Avenue. This, combined with the fact that she had leisure for all her political and charitable activities, shows that she was not busy mopping floors to get by. Perhaps she was successful in getting her hands on some of the treasures from her married life, which could have provided a nice nest egg. Or perhaps her daughters did well out of their various divorces and supported her.
Things didn’t work out so well for Henry Siegel. After his release from prison, he reportedly tried to launch a clothing business on Broadway in Manhattan, but this venture quickly failed.
He then settled in Hackensack, New Jersey, where he founded Henri’s Men’s Store on Main Street. He lived a largely anonymous life as a suburban shopkeeper, and it was supposedly only towards the end of his life – when his further marital travails and his final illness made the papers – that many in Hackensack discovered he was that Henry Siegel.
It was reportedly during his trial that Henry met Mrs. Henrietta Struble, whom the papers described as attractive, more than two decades younger than her husband, and as already having two marriages under her own belt.
Henrietta was said to be working as the manager of a Western Union Telegraph Company office in Monroe County, New York when she and Henry were married, and after the marriage as a Western Union operator in Hackensack.
In 1927, Henry sued for divorce, claiming that Henrietta had been unfaithful with a 20-year-old employee of his store. The papers said that the Siegels were living in a five-room, $60-a-month apartment in Hackensack, and that Henry moved to a boarding house when he sued.
I’m not clear on whether or not the divorce was granted. A reconciliation with his “former wife” was credited for Henry’s pulling through a serious illness in 1928, an illness that brought Julia across the ocean, where she was “greeted warmly” by Henrietta. It was reported that Henry went to Henrietta’s house to convalesce.
And after his death in 1930, he is referred to as having a wife, whom he left “only what the law requires” – one-third of his estate and one-half the interest in his real estate during his life. The residue was left to Julia, who acted as executor with Henry’s brother Abraham (strangely, in all the NYTimes articles mentioning her father during these years, Julia is referred to as “Lady” Cavendish, which she certainly was not; I wonder if this was due to embellishment on the part of her father or stepmother?).
Newspapers noted that Henry’s will made provisions to the tune of $1 million, but that it was a doubtful point that he had anything like this amount to dispose of.
There is one claim made about Henry by Marie Wilde in her divorce suit that certainly seems to be untrue – that he was not a caring father.
Marie claimed that, when separating from him, Henry had said things like “I don’t need you anymore. I always meant to get rid of you once I got Julia off my hands.” There was also her indication that he did not care about providing for either of their daughters.
All during his troubles, Henry seems to have been concerned with looking after Julia’s interests. When creditors were picking him clean, he claimed that a $76,000 life insurance policy, of which Julia was the beneficiary, was held under such terms that it could not be touched by them (true, he might have wanted to cash it in later for himself). I don’t know whether he succeeded in saving it.
He also seems to have wanted to see his daughter frequently. In 1910, Julia sailed to New York on the Mauretania to see him. Later that year, Henry took the Caronia to England to be there for the birth of Julia’s second child. And at the height of his legal problems, he went to a lot of trouble to see Julia just for a few days. In 1914, he took the Olympic to the UK, claiming that it was to see his sick grandson and not to escape prosecution. On the way over, he reportedly received a wireless saying that the boy’s condition had improved.
Julia met him at the pier, where they were mobbed by reporters. He spent the weekend at her house in Staffordshire and then took the Olympic’s next voyage back to New York, reporters commenting that he looked tanned, rested, and much more relaxed. Julia again went to the pier to see him off (her home was given as “Knightly Grange”, which I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a reference to before and which may well be a mistake; the same could be true of the home given for the Cavendishes at the birth of their son – “The Battlies”, Roughan, Bury St. Edmunds).
I don’t know how much father and daughter saw of each other in the years after Henry left prison and sank into obscurity. When Julia sailed over in 1928, it was reported that she intended to stay in a room at the hospital and would go to her stepmother’s (or former stepmother’s) home if her father’s condition improved.
Only surviving personal correspondence could tell how Julia felt about her father’s problems – whether she believed in his innocence and was full of indignant rage, or she believed he was guilty and felt humiliated. But, regardless, she seems to have stood by him, which says something about this elusive lady. |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 527
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 1:49 pm: |
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In case anyone caught it, the one paragraph should read:
There had apparently been charges on Henry’s part that Marie’s extravagance had played a part in his ruin. Marie said, “My books will show and I have only one set, that in no year, even when Mr. Siegel was accredited with having an income exceeding several hundred thousand dollars a year, did he give me over $24,000 a year with which to maintain the expenses of his elaborate establishments.”
I left out the 'hundred'. Sorry! |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 416
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 5, 2007 - 4:26 pm: |
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Brian, I can't thank you enough for this. Your contributions are simply outstanding. I cannot wait to hear what you've uncovered about the Hippachs, Clarks and Harders!
As a matter of interest - are you using any sort of system for your research? Are there particular passengers who interest you more than others? You must surely have a book in you somewhere, just waiting to get out - I envisage a lavishly illustrated tome, dealing alphabetically with each man, woman and child in first-class! With all the inter-connections between the various individuals aboard, and the light it would throw on the lives of the Victorian and Edwardian rich, it would make for fascinating reading.
Oh - and I tried to send you a private message through E.T. about three weeks ago. I wonder, did you receive it? |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 530
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 7, 2007 - 4:38 am: |
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Martin - I've scoured my inbox and didn't find a message. I receive a ton of discussion board updates that I delete without reading, so I probably deleted yours by accident. Sorry about that!
In answer to your other question, I'm usually interested in the passengers about whom little is known, rather than the names you encounter every time you read even the shallowest account of the disaster.
The book you described sounds great - you should get on it! As much as I would enjoy the work, I'm too busy eking out a living to tackle something of such questionable marketability. Especially something that I'd probably get so immersed in that it would get fired from my day job.
I'm so glad you enjoyed reading what I uncovered on the Cavendishes. It motivates me to get around to sharing what I've encountered on the others. I'm treating myself to a long weekend, so will get to it.
Regards... |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 461
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:46 pm: |
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I was this afternoon thrilled to discover a previously unsuspected 'Titanic' connection in the Society columns of 'The New York Times'. It appears that, in the summer of 1900, Tyrell Cavendish arrived in Newport, where he stayed with Commodore and Mrs C.L.F. Robinson. On 10 July, he went to register at the ultra-modish Casino where he signed his name just below that of J. Clinch Smith who paid a visit that very same day!
I'd be intrigued to know what the bachelor Tyrell was doing in the States where, as we know, he would ultimately take a bride. Was he really on a mission to snaffle a dollar princess? From what I've read, he wasn't in a position to worry about money prior to his marriage... |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 550
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 5:20 pm: |
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That is something! I guess he would have been about 25 at the time? The little I know of the man makes me think he was a people-person; and so would have gamely accepted an invitation to cross the pond and check out a new scene. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 465
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 7:36 pm: |
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The wedding of Julia Siegel and Tyrell Cavendish was, surprisingly perhaps, a very low-key affair. It took place at the home of her father at 26 East Eighty-Second Street on Boxing Day, 1906, and only twenty guests (mainly family) were present. The Rev. Dr. Ernest M. Steers of St. Thomas's Church officiated, and Julia wore a white broadcloth gown, trimmed with Irish lace, for the ceremony. Her cousin, Jerome Siegel, stood in as Tyrell's best man.
Again, I'd be fascinated to know why this marriage between a beautiful 'dollar princess' and a representative of England's aristocracy was carried out with such an absence of pomp and ceremony. By the standards of the time, one would have expected something quite other! Interesting, too, to learn that it was evidently a Christian service... |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 481
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:55 pm: |
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Another tiny scrap of information to add to what we know about Tyrell Cavendish. He was apparently educated at Harrow - not Eton, as I've speculated elsewhere on the board. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 486
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 9:36 am: |
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In my view, the story of the Cavendishes, with its background of wealth and glamour, scandal and disgrace, is one of the most fascinating of all that have come to light from the 'Titanic' so far.
Anybody with even a passing interest in the couple should Google 'Siegel-Cooper' which will immediately pull up quite an extensive amount of information about the landmark New York department store of that name, which was owned and operated by Julia's father, Henry. There are various photographs on-line from both the turn of the century and the present day - it was, and remains, a vast and magnificent edifice, which in its heyday rivalled both Macys and Harrods. Evidently, it was a great money-spinner too; the profits made Henry hugely rich and allowed his wife and daughters to move in the highest social circles and contract marriages with members of the European aristocracy. I seem to recall reading on another thread that, whilst on the 'Carpathia', Julia Cavendish and Leila Meyer (the daughter of the proprietor of Saks Fifth Avenue who had also been widowed) offered guarantees to Second Officer Lightoller that he could be kitted out at their family stores, free of charge, upon arrival in New York. A touching gesture.
I'd also add that a book I've mentioned on the board before, 'Crowning Glory: American Wives of Princes and Dukes' by Richard Jay Hutto, contains a lovely portrait, circa 1910, of the Italian Count Carlo Dentice de Frasso, who Julia's step-sister, Georgine Wilde, married at Brompton Oratory, London, in the spring of 1906 (Julia was a bridesmaid). As Brian points out in his post above, the marriage was dissolved in 1921, and the Count was later married again, to a very interesting lady called Dorothy Caldwell Taylor, who blazed a trail in international high society during the Jazz Age and even (reputedly) inspired a character in Clare Booth Luce's scandalous - and delicious - play, 'The Women'! |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 553
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 6:40 pm: |
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Greetings, Martin, I haven't logged on in a while.
I had read earlier on this thread that Julia and Leila bought clothes for Lightoller while on the Carpathia, and was surprised that the Carpathia's store (the barber shop, I believe) had such an extensive inventory. It makes much more sense that they would have provided him with the means of buying clothing once he was on land.
Henry Siegel's rise and fall were equally spectacular. The murky info we have on the Cavendish marriage makes me feel Tyrell would have manfully stood by his wife and father-in-law through the trials and humiliations that were soon to engulf them. In the end, Julia apparently had nothing material to bring to the marriage (if her stepmother's claims that Henry never gave her a penny can be believed). But I like to think that the woman herself was treasure enough for her husband. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 494
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 12:54 pm: |
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That's an interesting thought, Brian. My own interpretation of Tyrell's character is that he was a very discreet individual, which might explain why so few passengers had any recollection of his activities during the voyage. Then again, if he really WAS hoping to run for Parliament, then he must have had a reasonably strong persona, besides abilities as a public speaker...I suppose we'll never know!
On the subject of finance: I wonder if Julia received a lump sum from her father by way of a dowry when she married, to be safely invested in England, or whether he made her a regular allowance, which presumably dried up completely when his business collapsed? I don't believe that she ever struggled to make ends meet. The village hall in Suffolk that she endowed in her husband's memory wasn't built until around 1915 (when Henry had gone bust) and her sons were attending very good schools in the Twenties. Likewise, at the end of her life, she was living in an elegant townhouse in Kensington, having never felt the urge to remarry, like so many 'Titanic' widows did in later years. |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 557
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 2:20 pm: |
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Good points. I'd forgot about the village hall, and never knew that she still had a London home at the time of her death.
I would find it hard to believe that Henry didn't settle money on her when she married, since that was still common practice then. As discussed above, Julia's stepmother Marie claimed he didn't, but we also discussed how this claim was suspect. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 495
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 3:12 pm: |
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It might be interesting to know how much money Count Carlo Dentice de Frasso's SECOND wife brought to their marriage. The implication in Hutto's book (which I urge you to look out, Brian, if you haven't already done so) is that they had a high old time together in the Twenties and Thirties and that, far from being 'ruined' by his first marriage to Georgine Wilde, the Count was doing rather well. I mean, he must have contributed something other than his title to the match and, as I've mentioned elsewhere, Italian titles were not massively prestigious anyway.
Yes, at the time of her death, Julia was living in a very substantial white stuccoed villa just off the Gloucester Road, with Hyde Park only a stone's throw away. She doesn't appear to have moved all that far from Chesham Place, in Belgravia, which is where she and Tyrell maintained (or at least rented) a house in the early years of their marriage.
There is one thing that really strikes me about the Siegel-Cavendish saga and that is how easy it was for even the brightest stars in the American social firmament to slip into obscurity and disgrace. After all, Henry had been held up as one of the 'super-fashionables' of New York Society around the time Julia married Tyrell and, as you and I know, Marie was constantly in the most exclusive company at all manner of prestigious events. Then...scandal and, if not outright poverty, then certainly a dramatic tumble for them both. In a way, I'm reminded of Lily Bart's fall in 'The House of Mirth'. It seems that, in a society where status really depended on mere wealth, the social footing of men and women like Henry and Marie was increasingly precarious. Which, I feel, wasn't so much the case in Europe and certainly not in England. Julia Cavendish was perhaps fortunate to have married into an aristocratic family. Not only would Tyrell have (presumably) inherited a considerable amount of money and/or property, he - and, by extension, his wife and sons - would have been protected from the worst extremities of poverty and want by the aristocratic sense of caste. I mean, unless a well-born individual did something REALLY bad (so becoming a pariah like Lord Arthur Somerset), he or she would be unlikely to find themselves so totally lacking for some means of support. |
Brian Ahern
Member
Username: brian_ahern
Post Number: 571
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 12:30 am: |
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The following link contains a brief account of the wedding of Tyrell's parents.
http://books.google.com/booksetc
A cursory Google search indicates that the fortune of Tyrell's maternal grandfather, Robert Dickinson, derived from coal. This could explain why Tyrell, the son of a younger son, seems to have been quite comfortable financially. Thepeerage.com (I'm so glad it finally has a listing for the Cavendishes!) lists Robert Dickinson's homes as Ebchester Hall and Shotley House. More information seems to be availabe on the family's association with the latter. I'm curious as to what Robert Dickinson's roots were. Whatever they were, it did not prevent quite a few titled personages from attending his daughter's wedding. |
Martin Williams
Member
Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 526
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2008 - 5:32 pm: |
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By sheer coincidence, I've lately discovered that Little Onn Hall - where Tyrell and Julia Cavendish were based in 1912 and which they gave as their address when they sailed on the 'Titanic' - was actually the family home of a friend of mine: his mother's family purchased, or else took a long lease, on the house immediately after it was vacated by the widowed Julia. I've been lucky enough to look through photograph albums dating from the time of the Great War, showing children playing in the grounds, which had been landscaped during the 1890s by the famous gardener Thomas Mawson. Apparently, the funds ran out and Mawson was not able to implement some of his more grandiose schemes for the property but he DID construct a lake (known locally as 'the dog bone', owing to its irregular shape), tennis courts and terraces. A snapshot shows the formal parterres, bedded out with roses, which must have required constant maintenance by a sizeable team of gardeners. Although of only peripheral interest to the Cavendish story, seeing what THEY would have seen from their bedroom window, and imagining them strolling along the gravel paths, helped to bring them that little bit more into focus.
It has been rumoured that Little Onn was an 'unlucky' house, owing to a curse that was once placed upon it: Tyrell's untimely demise on the 'Titanic' has even been attributed to this. But my friend attests that his mother's family were in residence for many years and never felt any ill-effects...maybe the curse wore off over time? |
Carole Lindsay
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Username: carolel
Post Number: 57
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 3, 2008 - 11:22 pm: |
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Here's a coincidence - the Rev. Ernest Stires (that's the correct spelling) mentioned in the Nov. 21 post, also officiated at the wedding of James Clinch Smith and Bertha Barnes in Chicago in 1895. The Rev. Stires was a good friend of Major Butt and knew several of the other passengers. |
Martin Williams
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Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 551
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, April 4, 2008 - 9:25 am: |
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How very interesting, thank you for that piece of information, Carole. May I ask where you discovered it? Most of the scraps I've contributed above were derived from the archives of the 'New York Times'. You mention that he knew other passengers - a quick Google has revealed that he officiated at the 1913 wedding of 'Titanic' survivor Margaret Hays.
The Rev. Steers/Stires evidently belonged to a church with a very fashionable congregation - the Clinch Smiths and the Henry Siegels were both moving in the highest social circles around the turn-of-the-century. Possibly St. Thomas's was in the same league as Grace Church, which is mentioned as the 'smart' place of worship in Wharton's 'The Age of Innocence'. Both were Episcopalian which, as I understand it, was the preferred WASP denomination. |
Carole Lindsay
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Username: carolel
Post Number: 58
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 4, 2008 - 6:30 pm: |
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This is the Smith wedding announcement from the New York Times of June 6, 1895.
CLINCH-SMITH - BARNES - On Wednesday, June 5, at Grace Church, Chicago, by the Rev Ernest M. Stires, Bertha Ludington, daughter of Charles J. Barnes of Chicago, to James Clinch-Smith of New York.
Another coincidence - one of the guests at the wedding was Pierrepont Isham, brother of Titanic passenger Ann Isham. He died in 1906.
Early in his career Rev. Stires was the rector of the Church of the Good Shepherd in Augusta, Georgia. That may have been the church where Major Butt worshipped. Rev. Stires' wife, the former Sarah McK. Hardwick was said to have been a childhood friend of Major Butt. They also knew the Ryersons.
St. Thomas Church was indeed attended by many members of New York society including the Astors and the Vanderbilts. It was the scene of Consuelo Vanderbilt's wedding to the Duke of Marlborough in 1895. |
Martin Williams
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Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 577
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 2, 2008 - 2:39 pm: |
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Brian and Carole (and anybody else who might be interested)
I've just been trawling through the archives of the London 'Times' and have been amazed and delighted to discover that one of Julia Siegel's fellow bridesmaids at the wedding of her step-sister, Georgine Wilde, to Count Carlo Dentice de Frasso in London in 1906 was none other than - who would have guessed it? Not I! - Gladys Cherry, daughter of Lady Emily Cherry and cousin-by-marriage of the Countess of Rothes. This does, I think, go to prove the previously unconfirmed hypothesis that Noelle, Gladys and the Cavendishes were all acquainted with one another BEFORE they sailed on the 'Titanic'. Certainly, too, this suggests that Noelle and Gladys would indeed have been seated at the same table as Tyrell and Julia in the first-class dining saloon. |
Martin Williams
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Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 602
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 4:59 pm: |
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http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9802EEDF103EE733A25751C1A9679D946497D6CF
The link above should take you to a 1905 article from 'The New York Times' which features a nice shot of Georgine Wilde (Julia Siegel Cavendish's step-sister) on her prize mount, Sceptre. The writer debates whether American Society will continue to frequent the previously fashionable autumn Horse Show and concludes that, on balance, it probably will. This was evidently a topical issue - Edith Wharton made a similar observation in her 'House of Mirth', published that same year.
As we know, Georgine had two future 'Titanic' survivors as bridesmaids at her wedding to Count Carlo Dentice di Frasso in 1906 - Julia herself, and Gladys Cherry. The marriage was eventually annulled and the Count took as his second wife another American, the fabulously glamorous (and really rather raffish) Dorothy Caldwell Taylor. A set of portraits of Dorothy, dated 1913 and taken by Bassano (a studio patronised by Lady Duff Gordon and the Countess of Rothes, besides virtually every other member of Edwardian high society) can be found in the archives of the National Portrait Gallery. Check out her couture!
http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/person.asp?LinkID=mp67712
Although only very tenuously linked to the 'Titanic' story, I was intrigued to learn that, prior to her marriage to the count, Dorothy had been the wife of pioneer British aviator Claude Grahame-White. Following THAT divorce, he went on to marry Ethel Levy, the very chic singer and actress who had scored a massive hit on the London stage in late 1912 with her turn in the revue 'Hullo Ragtime!' |
Martin Williams
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Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 694
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 11:56 am: |
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Here's a link to a website which provides some great images of the Siegel-Cooper department store in New York, which was owned and operated by Julia Cavendish's father, Henry Siegel. I gather that Mrs Cavendish arranged credit there for Second Officer Lightoller to replace the clothing and personal effects he'd lost in the sinking (I only wish I could remember where I first read that, instead of repeating it ad nauseum!)
http://www.nyc-architecture.com/CHE/CHE018-Siegel-CooperDryGoodsStore.htm
Even as the Siegel marriage - and the Siegel family fortune - headed for calamity, Julia's glamorous stepmother and sisters continued to make a brave show in Society. On Twelveth Night, 1911, Mrs Siegel and her daughter, Dorothy Wilde, attended an enormous party at Sherry's, which was trumpeted in the press the next day as 'one of the largest and smartest semi-public balls ever given in New York' (quite how a ball can be only 'semi' public, I'm not quite sure). This was evidently a very picturesque affair, since most of the female guests wore fancy-dress, whilst many of the men sported hunting pink as well as white-tie. Mrs Siegel made a splash as Queen Elizabeth I, in grey velvet and tissue, trimmed with silver lace and studded all over with turquoise and emeralds. A diamond tiara sparkled in her hair. Dorothy's outfit was positively restrained in comparison and she went as a ballerina, with rose-pink skirts, tights and ribbons. Other Titanic-related personalities present that night included Colonel Astor with his son, Vincent, and Walter Miller Clark's cousin, Mrs James W. Gerard (wife of the future American Ambassador to Germany), who was dressed as the tragic operatic heroine Tosca, in blue-and-gold with cerise scarves and bunches of lilac. |
Martin Williams
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Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 721
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 - 10:27 am: |
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Leila Meyer and Julia Cavendish (both widowed in the sinking) are believed to have shown their appreciation to the surviving officers and crewmen of the Titanic by making arrangements for them to be reclothed at no personal expense from the department stores operated by their respective fathers in New York. Only, until now, I've not been sure where this information was derived from. I was pleased, therefore, to discover this morning that the original source has been on Encyclopedia Titanica all along, in an article from the Southampton Times and Hampshire Express, dated 20th April, 1912:
'Marconigram dated 18th April 1912 to: Saks & Co., New York. '36 men's medium flannel shirts 12 men's ditto, drawers, 12 pairs socks for destitute, deliver immediately at Pier 54 to Officer C. H. Lightoller. Lelia.'
Marconigram dated 18th April 1912 to: Siegel Cooper & Co. 6th Avenue, New York. '25 Coats, 19 Trousers medium weight for destitute deliver immediately at Pier 54 to Officer C. H. Lightoller. Julia'
Further to my earlier post of 14th February, 2008, I can add that a book has recently been published here in England which includes some excellent photographs of the Cavendish home in Staffordshire, Little Onn Hall, and its splendid grounds, which were designed by the famous landscape gardener, Thomas Mawson. Amazon details are provided below:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thomas-Mawson-Life-Gardens-Landscapes/dp/0711225958 |
Martin Williams
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Username: martin_williams
Post Number: 722
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 - 4:57 pm: |
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Incidentally, the Siegel family estate, Driftwood, at Orienta Point, Mamaroneck, was purchased after Henry's scandalous bankruptcy by Isidor Straus's brother, Nathan. Yet another example of the intricate web of connections and coincidences binding the first-class families of the Titanic together.
Extensive Googling has yet to reveal anything specific about Driftwood but the house and grounds were noted for their grandeur and the Siegels hosted some lavish entertainments there in the first decade of the century. |
Jim Kalafus
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Username: jak
Post Number: 5490
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, August 6, 2009 - 11:44 am: |
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Have you tried Google Earth-ing the address?
Orienta is still a good neighborhood, but most of the large estates have been sub-divided. In some cases the original houses survived but, in most cases, the houses were replaced.
If ever in the U.S. you could grab your gun, and some mace, and go to the main branch of the New Rochelle Public Library, during daylight hours. They have an extensive collection, covering the histories of their much...safer...neighbors, Mamaroneck and Larchmont. You could also try contacting the Historical Society in Mamaroneck, or (a long shot) the Orienta Association. And, finally, with the original address of Driftwood, you could reference the demolition permit and at least get a fair idea of the house's dimensions.
NOW APPEARING:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JZ4aLBjzFI
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