| Author |
Message |
    
Mike Herbold
| | Posted on Saturday, June 3, 2000 - 11:39 pm: | 
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The following article was just published in the British Titanic Society quarterly journal, "Atlantic Daily Bulletin." My thanks go out to Phil Gowan and George Behe for their continuing help. We have since found the great niece and another distant relative in Southern California and are continuing to find out more information about this most interesting passenger.
Mike Herbold
Lakewood, California
George A. Brereton -- Mystery Man
By Mike Herbold
George M. Behe wrote an excellent two-part article for “The Titanic Commutator” in 1982 called “Fate Deals A Hand.” The story is told of George “Boy” Bradley and other gamblers aboard Titanic. Their activities on the evening of April 14, 1912, before and after the ship hit the iceberg, include attempts to draw unsuspecting victims into card games. Details are given of the many newspaper interviews they gave after the rescue ship Carpathia landed in New York. Bradley identified himself to reporters as George Brayton and George Braden of Los Angeles. On the Titanic passenger list, in the first class section, he was listed as “Brayton, Mr. George.”
In his second great Titanic book, Walter Lord retells some of those same April 14th and 15th incidents. He then goes on to tell how George Brayton tried to swindle wealthy survivor Charles Emil Henry Stengel in a horse racing scam a few weeks after the disaster.
No matter how much was written about him, George Bradley was always elusive. Unlike most passengers, especially those in first class, you will find no record of a birth date, birth place, or date and place of death. It turns out that George had one more card up his sleeve -- his last name was not Bradley or Brayton or Braden.
In the May 1998 Kenneth C. Schultz catalog of ocean liner memorabilia, the following description appeared about an item that was for sale: ‘Titanic: And another truly spectacular piece! Her 1st class color portrait passenger list -- The former property of 1st class passenger and survivor, Mr. George Brayton. The list was folded in his pocket as he escaped the Titanic that memorable night and is to the best of my knowledge one of the only existing lists to actually have been aboard. The previous 2 I’ve sold were both advance copies as is Walter Lord’s.’
‘This list was acquired from Mr. Brayton’s great niece who in a letter to me -- that will accompany the list -- gives us some new information. “My great uncle was one of the surviving passengers of the Titanic. His name was George Brereton and is misspelled on the list. He is listed as Mr. George Brayton..... I was always told he was on his honeymoon though there is no mention of a Mrs. on the list. I suspect there were many errors overall, not just the misspelling of Brereton. My grandmother Emily Brereton Lathrop, her brother George, and several other siblings were from Los Angeles.”
‘The list is folded and both covers are off but present, else sound. The list has been kept for years in a World War II bonds envelope with “Titanic passenger list” written on it. You, of course, get that and the letter along with the list. Another super opportunity to own a piece of history. $25,000.00.’
Kenneth Schultz sold the letter and list and can’t find a copy of the niece’s address. But luckily Brereton is not a very common last name, and there were not many Emily B. Lathrops in California. With help from Phillip Gowan, death certificates were found for both George and Emily, and the true story of George Andrew Brereton is starting to unfold.
George (Nov. 11, 1874) and his sister Emily Barbara Brereton (Dec. 13, 1876) were both born in Minnesota to Daniel Brereton of Ireland and Mary Rohe Brereton of Germany. George’s birth city was Medelia. At some time, George had a wife named Grace and Emily was married to Horace Newton Lathrop. They all lived in Southern California together. George was a car salesman and Emily a housewife.
George and Emily were close. In later years they both lived at the same address, 7021 Miramonte Blvd., in southeast Los Angeles. In its day it was probably very nice, with tall palm trees lining either side of a wide street. The house still stands today, but the area is now a crowded working class Latino neighborhood.
Much information is still being learned, but we do know that in 1942 George was a widower. Tragically, on the morning of July 16, 1942 at 7:40 am, George Brereton raised a 12 gauge shotgun to his head and pulled the trigger. He was 67.
The Breretons and Lathrops were close in death as in life. There are a total of 8 of them buried together in Block J, Section 9592 of Valhalla Memorial Park in Burbank, California (just north of Los Angeles). There are only six gravesites, however. The numbers given are the lot numbers. In the top row are:
1. Paul B. Lathrop, 1878-1934
2. George Andrew Brereton, 1874-1942
3. John A. Brereton, Sept. 12, 1878--Jan. 22, 1951
On the bottom row, the grave markers read like this:
4. Horace Newton Lathrop, 1871-1944. In between the name and the dates is the following inscription: Horace B. Lathrop, May 3, 1913--Oct. 19, 1984
5. Emily Barbara Lathrop, Beloved Mother, Douglas-Eugene-Horace B.,
1876-1970.
6. Eugene W. Lathrop, 1907-1989.
Two other family members are listed in the same section. William Edward Brereton was cremated. His ashes were apparently buried with John. Horace B. Lathrop died in 1985 and was also cremated. His ashes were apperently buried with his father.
The search for information regarding George Andrew Brereton is just beginning. Phillip Gowan has discovered that his father Daniel Brereton was also in California in the early 1900’s, in the Northern California town of Sausalito. It turns out that William Brereton was born in Medelia, Minnesota -- lengthening the time that we can prove the family was there. With help from Phillip and George Behe, we are looking for more information about George’s wife Grace, his other brother John,
and his in-laws. If we are really lucky, maybe we’ll even find one of his old decks of cards. |
Joe Shomi
| | Posted on Sunday, June 4, 2000 - 12:40 am: |
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Congratulations, Mike!
That's an excellent story. Quite a guy. Does anyone know who Brereton played cards with on Titanic? Do you know where Daniel lived in Sausalito? I might go and take a picture of the house, if it still exists. Once again, congratulations to you and Phil for the work you did. |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 409
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 9:32 am: |
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Morning all,
I recently saw an original of the passenger listing for the second voyage of the Olympic. Amongst the passengers was Thomas Andrews and a certain George A. Brereton. Would this be the same George Andrew Brereton (a.k.a. George Arthur Brayton / Bradley) who sailed on the first voyage of the Titanic?
Cheers,
Boz |
Phillip Gowan
Member
Username: philg
Post Number: 618
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 1:49 pm: |
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Hey Boz,
Yeah, that's him. He continued to sail the seas for many years plying his trade. In fact, it was on one of the subsequent trips that he met his second wife. Her parents were sending her and her sisters to England in hopes that she'd find a "royal" to marry. Instead she found Brereton. But he pretended to be a blue-blood and on his son's death certificate it lists the father as "Sir George Brereton." What a hoot!
Phil |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 411
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 6:18 pm: |
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Hallo Phil,
Thanks for confirming that. If his "trade" was gambling and swindling who was he hoping to swindle on the crossing? I'm aware he swindled fellow survivor Stengel several weeks after the sinking in a horse racing scam. Was Stengel also his intended victim on the crossing?
What happened to his second wife? Did she die before Brereton shot himself or did she see the light and do a runner?
Cheers,
Boz |
Phillip Gowan
Member
Username: philg
Post Number: 619
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 7:58 pm: |
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Hey Boz, am sure Brereton was swindling whoever he could on the trans-Atlantic crossings.
Hazel and George Brereton had a stormy relationship. Hazel couldn't have children so they adopted one son, Danny, who was said to be the out-of-wedlock child of a well-known movie star. Danny didn't turn out to be a gambler but he was a very unsavory character. He died a year before his mother and those responsible for the estate were reluctant to even enter his house, afraid of what they might find.
Hazel and George finally divorced and Hazel then married a Maytag heir and lived to be a very old woman. She wasn't such a nice little trick herself and Mike Herbold has uncovered some information that even suggests criminal activity on her part.
She and Brereton may have been well suited for one another. She was a very unpleasant looking woman--as George Behe once remarked when I showed him a photo of her--"looks like she was dying of Tuberculosis."
Take care,
Phil |
Daniel Klistorner
Member
Username: danielr
Post Number: 923
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 6:56 am: |
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Iain,
... and speaking of George Behe, he has a two-part article on the gamblers in the Titanic Commutator. It is in two of the 1982 issues, but I can't remember which ones. I don't have the original issues just yet, but I hope to really soon! 
I do have a photocopy of the article and it is excellent, well worth the read as it gives an excellent insight into the life of a gambler, as well as giving a good account of the gamblers on the Titanic.
Also you might want to visit this past thread on ET:
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5811/7369.html
It is about Titanic-connected people who traveled on the Olympic, and there's some gambler info as well. This is what I said in one of my posts:
"He actually traveled under his real name; George A. Brereton, arriving on the Olympic in N.Y. on 16 Aug. 1911!"
The gambler info I posted on that thread however might make more sense once you have acquainted yourself with George's article.
Regards,
Daniel.
PS. I think some 1982 Commutators might appear on ebay soon. There are two sellers that have have been listing issues. One has been listing them since 1972 and is up to 1981 at the moment, and the other has been listing them since the 90's and working back into the 80's. |
George Behe
Member
Username: georgeb
Post Number: 718
Registered: 8-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:43 am: |
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Hi, Daniel!
Thanks very much for your kind words about my gambler article -- it was my very first Titanic writing project and was definitely a lot of fun to put together.
All my best,
George |
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 950
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 11:33 am: |
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"It was my very first Titanic writing project" this must account for all of the spelling errors then?
Geoff
Hope things are settling down at home. |
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Username: rbigham
Post Number: 288
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 2:11 pm: |
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I have that copy of the Commutator with George's article on the gamblers. It was the first issue of the journal I got after I joined THS at the age of 13! I read that story over and over and can still recall the dramatic sketch of Rene Harris that accompanied it. The issue is a bit worn and torn but I've saved it in hopes that I can have George, now a good friend, sign it for me someday (if we ever meet!)
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Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 412
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 2:17 pm: |
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Many thanks for your help, Phil and Daniel. It never ceases to amaze me how people become what they are, in the case of Brereton a liar, thief and cheat. He's not even a likeable rogue although I still feel a bit sorry for him, having lost his son to TB and his first wife to suicide.
It's interesting how his experiences on the Titanic did not seem to change his way of life at all. I'd have thought he would have seen it as an opportunity to make amends and become a decent bloke but alas, the opportunity of making easy money at the expense of someone else was too good to miss.
I was amused by the story of Brereton posing as royalty. How mad is that? Did Hazel, his second wife, actually marry him because she thought he was blue blood? From how you describe her she doesn't sound the gullible type. If he was maintaining he was a "Sir" up until at least the time of his son's death, how on Earth did he keep up this charade for so long?
Thanks again,
Boz |
Phillip Gowan
Member
Username: philg
Post Number: 620
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 2:56 pm: |
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Boz,
I think that Hazel knew all along that Brereton was no blue-blood. After all, he was born in the United States and had a sister and several brothers that always lived nearby in California. But together, George and Hazel fooled the rest of Hazel's family--when I located the relatives a few years ago they were shocked to find out George was born and raised in the USA. He had ALWAYS spoken to them with a British accent! And apparently Hazel never divulged the truth even after divorcing him. Maybe she wanted Danny to think of himself as a blue-blood. For sure, the one word summing up Brereton's life is "sham." |
michelle dixon
Member
Username: chelle_dixon
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 5:18 pm: |
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Would you like to play your fave Titanic passenger in a rolepay? I have started a rolepay on my own webpage and so far it's a great success those taking part really enjoy it but... we need more people! You can be one passenger or as many as you like. Passenger already featured include Alice Elizabeth Fortune, Mark Fortune, The Countess of Rothes, Mrs JJ Brown (Molly Brown) and theres more. If you'd like to have a look then please e-mail me (chelle_dixon@hotmail.com) and i'll let you know the web address. We only want real passengers in the roleplay and no fictional ones i'm afraid.
Hope to hear from you soon! |
Iain Stuart Yardley
Member
Username: boz
Post Number: 414
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 5:35 pm: |
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Phil, the tale just gets better and better. I was going to mention the British - American accent thing but thought that would never have been possible to keep up for years. I've known some people who pretend to be from places like Ireland, talk in their Irish accent to one person and turn around and talk to someone else in Black Country (my dialect). Then they get confused just who they were talking to and how. Brereton must have been a clever chap to carry off this scam.
Thanks for sharing his story, although I suspect there is many a tale about this remarkable chap that will never see the light of day.
Cheers,
Boz |
George Behe
Member
Username: georgeb
Post Number: 720
Registered: 8-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 1:48 am: |
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Hi, Randy!
Thanks very much for your glowing testimonial re: my article -- I really appreciate it.
>I have that copy of the Commutator with George's >article on the gamblers. It was the first issue >of the journal I got after I joined THS at the >age of 13!
Let's see -- that means I was in my late seventies when you joined the THS in 1982. :-)
>I .... can still recall the dramatic sketch of >Rene Harris that accompanied it.
My sister-in-law Bonnie Berg did that sketch (and a few others) for me, and I'm glad you thought her work livened up the article a bit. I had always been struck by the inherent drama of Rene's emotional confrontation with the gambler on board the Carpathia, and I felt that Bonnie's sketch gave the reader a pretty fair sense of what the poor woman must have been feeling at the time.
>The issue is a bit worn and torn but I've saved >it in hopes that I can have George, now a good >friend, sign it for me someday (if we ever meet!)
You mean *when* we meet, Randy -- it'll definitely happen one day in the not-too-distant future. :-)
All my best,
George |
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 953
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 7:36 am: |
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Oh look out Randy - Behe will arrive at your house at 3.00am with a suitcase, he's one of those overnight guests who never leave and by the tone of his last sentence.....he's packing already! |
Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1187
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 8:31 am: |
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You always start interesting new posts when I am gone. FWIW, I actually drove past Breretons grave yesterday in Burbank! :-) He, and most of his family are buried in the same cemetary as my grandfather and many of MY family. I have yet to see the houses, or the one that the suicide took place, but maybe soon! (Is it still there? Phil, Mike, anyone??)
Brereton's story is an interesting one, and I hope someone continues to seek out the concealed. As Phil stated, if there is criminal activity, this will be yet another facet of interesting California history.
Good posts... I am A.L.L. ears!
Colleen
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Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 8:57 am: |
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In looking at the newly posted picture of Hazel Brereton.... She has stone cold eyes. Maybe she was just having a bad day, but gives off an impression of someone I would not like to be around. Wonder of her personality was as charming?
Colleen
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Arne Mjåland
Member
Username: arne
Post Number: 127
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 2:50 pm: |
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Here is a bit from the will written by John A. Brereton. brother of George on the Titanic.:
Aug. 15 1950
My last will and testament whatever I posess I leave to my sister Emily B Lathrop, my nephew Eugene Lathrop and my brother Wm. E. Brereton. My sister to receive 50% my nephew Eugene Lathrop 25% and my brother Wm E. Brereton 25%.
FILED Jan 31 1951.
John died on January 22 1951 at Los Angeles.
The superior court of teh State of California made up the Brereton estate.
Emily B. Lathrop inherited $ 9153,19. Eugene Lathrop got $2728.25. Wm. Brereton got $ 2728,25.
As John probably had inherited some of that money from his brother George, one can wonder how much of it was earend by work, and how much was earned by George in card games on transatlantic liners.
A brother Clarence Brereton, and Robert Way, another nephew were also informed about the outcome of the probate.
In 1951 Robert Way lived at Hotel Hayward, 205 West 6th St, Los Angeles. George Fogelson, who sent me copies of the probate also sent me a picture of the hotel.It is supposed to be situated in one of the "bad" areas in Los Angeles.
Robert Way was 21 years old in 1951. He may still be alive? |
Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1190
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:47 pm: |
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Yes, Hotel Hayward, on west 6th, is down by, or right at an area named Little Tokyo. I am fairly certain 6th street is what many will recognize as another name... Skid Row. It is now supposedly called the "Hayward Manor Hotel" and still exists, that is, unless it has been burned down in the last few months. This is 6 miles-- fairly straight down-- from the Brereton's old house on Mira Monte street, which is located nearby Florence street, (some will remember an incident in the 1960's at the intersection of Florence and Normandy)...in an area better known as Watts. I have been in the general area several times, and have wanted to seek out the hotel and house, but lose all ambition once down there, and my only thoughts are to get the heck out of there As Soon As Possible........
Regarding Robert Way, I have been searching for him, and have a suspicion that he is deceased. Possibly as late as one month before our grave tour in 2002.... (darn it.) Am still looking into it though.
Colleen
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Phillip Gowan
Member
Username: philg
Post Number: 622
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:49 pm: |
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Arne,
By the time of Brereton's death he had little to leave behind. In his acrimonious divorce from Hazel she saw to it that Danny, their adopted son, would continue to get support. George didn't even have a home of his own by the time of his death and used his sister's address as his own. What few possessions he had became the sister's belongings when he died. It was a very modest little house and is still standing. When Emily Lathrop died she had no idea that the old Titanic menu her brother had saved would one day be worth a lot of money. Her granddaughter sold it and made a bundle.
Phil |
Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1191
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:56 pm: |
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RE: the name Brereton. English: habitation name from places so called in Ches. and Staffs. The former gets its name from OE brær, brer briar (see Brear) + tun enclosure, settlement.
Brear=topographic name for someone who lived by a briar patch.
2. nickname for a prickly, difficult individual, from the same word as in 1, applied in a transferred sense.
-----------------------------------------------
So, could we conclude what Brereton was, by definition?? 
Colleen
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Phillip Gowan
Member
Username: philg
Post Number: 623
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 11:34 pm: |
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Well, his father, Daniel, was born in Ireland--so still no sign of a reason to call him "Sir" :-)
Phil |
Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1192
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 1:17 am: |
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Robert B. Way ( B. was for Brereton) who resided with the happy family of George Brereton for a short while, born in November of 1904, died in 1990, in Contra Costa County. (Northern California.) He was married, and it is my belief that due to the age of the person in the will, the Robert Way listed, was that of a son.
The closest listing I have come across thus far, is that of a son, born in 1925, which coincides with the father's data stated above. If this is the same, he died in September of 1997. I will hopefully continue a search though...
Oddly... I noted another Robert B Way, which could have potentially been his grandfather, who was a Constable in Whittier Ca. around the same time that my G-grandfather was a constable in Norwalk, the next city over..... Time to look over old family pictures again!
Colleen
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Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 4:01 am: |
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CORRECTION... RE: Florence and Normandie.. This was where the Rodney King Riots started in the 1990's, NOT the riots that ravaged the community of Watts in August 1965. They were approximately 3 miles further down the street from where the Lathrops lived. These incidents happened within 5 miles of each other. All three make sort of a "V" as far as equal distance between them. (Sorry for that mistake.)
Colleen
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Phillip Gowan
Member
Username: philg
Post Number: 625
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 6:46 pm: |
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Another photo of Brereton as well as one of his second wife Hazel, were added to the new gallery this weekend--neither very flattering!
Phil |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 6341
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 3:17 am: |
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Thanks for the warning Phil! 
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Arne Mjåland
Member
Username: arne
Post Number: 128
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 2:43 pm: |
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Tahnk you for additional information about the Breretons and Robert Way.
Here is another story about George:
It is from a San Diego paper April 30 1935:
DORT.ERNEST: BRERETON, GEORGE
The board of Supervisors by a vote of three to two today enacted an ordinance making two years residence in the county compulsory to eligibility for any county employment. The measure is aimed at Sheriff Dort, who retained Brereton protege of August Wollner and nationally recognized crominologist, as under-sheriff, and hired five other noted man-hunters from outside this county (San Diego)
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Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1195
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 7:18 pm: |
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Arne. See, I was doing my homework. Thanks for sending me some of the paperwork a while ago, so I COULD trace it.
Colleen
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Mike Herbold
Member
Username: mikeh
Post Number: 379
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 7:39 am: |
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Arne:
Thanks for sharing that interesting article, but it is definitely not about the George Brereton of Titanic fame.
Brereton seems like a fairly uncommon name in the United States, but there were and are a lot more of them than you think. You will find five George Breretons and one Thomas George Brereton in the California Death Index alone, only one of which is our infamous gambler.
The George Brereton you cited was a highly respected Chief of Police here in Southern California. I've run across numerous internet articles about him and his influence in police circles in the 1930s. He was no relation to the Titanic Brereton. |
Mike Herbold
Member
Username: mikeh
Post Number: 380
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 8:27 am: |
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Colleen:
Yes, the house where George Brereton committed suicide, the house belonging to his sister, Emily Brereton Lathrop and her husband, still exists on Miramonte Blvd., just north of Florence Ave. (Seems strange that Miramonte is a Blvd and Florence is an Ave -- seems like it should be just the opposite.) It's just two blocks east of the Metro Blue Line route, and roughly halfway between the 710 and 110 freeways. The neighborhood is part of LA County, and borders Huntington Park.
Two other homes that were occupied by either George or Emily are about a mile away on the south side of Florence Ave. Another house he lived in right near the corner of Florence is now a coin-op car wash. The area is not too bad, but it's definitely more working class than yuppy, and a lot of the homes and yards are starting to show their age. (The famous Florence and Normandie corner of Rodney King Riot fame is way over on the west side of the 110 freeway.)
The last time I took pictures of the Miramonte home, I went to the house and met the current owners. They are a middle-aged hispanic couple, and only the husband speaks English. They know absolutely nothing about Brereton or the Titanic, and looked at me like an encyclopedia salesman (no offence intended Mr. Hind).
We'll have to make this one of our stops on our next Southern California Titanic tour. Actually, its not that far as the crow flies from the Titanic Exhibit. Not too far from Karen Abelseth Little's gravesite that we visited last time, either. |
Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:08 am: |
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Hi Mike! Great to see your name on the board.
You got yourself a deal... regarding another Southern California Titanic Tour! Look forward to seeing some of the houses.
Will look into Daniel's house out this way. 
Colleen
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Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 1862
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 7:42 am: |
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Seconding Colleen's remarks above and Phil G's elsewhere on the board, Mike - great to see you here posting again! Your input is always first rate. So is the area the Brereton's lived in 'downwardly mobile', or was it always hovering there, do you think? Quite an eyeopener to see how some Titanic residences have slipped a few grooves on the social scale since the subjects of our interest lived in them. On the other hand, no doubt there's many a Dockland home were a stoker or AB once lived that has felt the sweeping winds of market change and is now a yuppie terrace! |
Mike Herbold
Member
Username: mikeh
Post Number: 382
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 10:31 pm: |
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Hi Inger:
How's my favorite OzzieBrit?
I remember reading a John O'Hara novel years ago that described how neighborhoods changed from one generation to the next ("From The Terrace", "A Rage To Live", or "Sermons and Soda Water"?).
In the 1920's, Brereton's Florence neighborhood would have been the suburbs of Southeast Los Angeles. Palm trees lined the 30 ft wide streets and every house had a nice front porch and a little lawn in front, and room in the street or the back yard for kids to play. Everything south and east from there was farmland.
As a result of WWII and later economic develop, LA's population exploded and expanded in every direction, and continues to do so. The southern and eastern "suburbs" now extend 50 miles further.
This has happened elsewhere, but LA's lack of adequate mass transportation and almost total reliance on the automobile has really exaggerated the problem. Early suburban neighborhoods that were built during the days of one car or less per family got awfully congested when both parents and all their kids owned their own car, and streets that were 30 feet wide became congested parking lots.
There were other cultural changes. The old suburbs had 2 and 3 bedroom houses with a single bathroom. The new suburbs have bedrooms for everyone, and at least two bathrooms.
There were also and continue to be ethnic changes. Whites fled the LA vicinity, and neighborhoods first became black and then hispanic. Brereton's old neighborhood is now mostly lower working class hispanic.
Enough about that. When are you visiting our fair state again? How's the future captain? Drop me a line sometime. |
Inger Sheil
Moderator
Username: isheil
Post Number: 1864
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 10:26 am: |
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OzzieBrit doing just fine here, Mike! Many thanks for your explanation of urban decay in Brereton-land. I find one of the most depressing aspects of chasing up old Titanic-related addresses can be how downwardly mobile some of these neighbourhoods are - Murdoch would not be pleased to see how his old Southampton address has entered the world of the cheap bed-sit. Some, of course, were always in dodgy areas. I spent a day once looking at Lowe's old shore addresses in Liverpool, and there were some less-than-salubrious areas that I imagine haven't changed much from the days of 'Brutal Bootle.' Didn't particularly fancy walking around them by myself carrying a camera. On the other hand, I had one pleasant surprise with a dockland's address that I thought would be dicey - turned out to be quite nice.
Tentative plans are afoot for a visit to your lovely state again later this year - possibly with Jill (but not the rest of the entourage!). I'll let you know how matters pan out.
All the best,
Ing |
Colleen Collier
Member
Username: colleen
Post Number: 1203
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 11:28 pm: |
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Added to the list I believe would be Karen Abelseth, who died in Inglewood. Not too certain how bad the area had become by the time she passed away in July 1969, but was bad enough that Eric and Mike wouldn't take me there on the grand tour. Trust me, I saw Eric do some white knuckle driving through some of the areas, and I finally had to ask "Where are you taking me?! Can we please lock the doors?" So shaken was Eric, he agreed to have a large mixed drink afterwards.... Ha ha.
Colleen
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 6366
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 1, 2003 - 6:40 am: |
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Hmmmmmmm...if I had to drive through a place where ones best friend is Smith & Wesson, I'd be a little edgy too.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Arne Mjåland
Member
Username: arne
Post Number: 151
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 2:24 pm: |
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Here is an interview George A. Brereton gave to Manitoba Free Press April 19 1912:
"George A Braden ( on the passenger list as George
Brayton) told of how captain Smith met his death:
"I saw Captain Smith while I was in the water. Once he was swept down by a wave, but managed to get his feet. Then as the boat sank he again was knocked down by a wave and this time disappeared from view".
Any comments to the interview? I do not think Brereton gave mny interviews. |
Thomas E. Golembiewski
Member
Username: upperdeck
Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 10:03 pm: |
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Perhaps this can be of some help for those interested in the matter of gamblers aboard Titanic:
_______________________________
Chicago Inter Ocean, Saturday, April 20, 1912, p 1, c. 3:
HUMAN BUZZARDS OF SEA SINK WITH THE TITANIC
_____________________
Special Dispatch to the Inter-Ocean
New York, April 19.—Figures familiar to Forty-Second street will be missing in the cafes of the Great White Way when the lights are brightest as one of the results of the foundering of the Titanic. Pictures in the rogues’ gallery will be turned to the wall. The police will strike from their records the name of more than one man “wanted.”
There went down with the great White Star liner a flock of buzzards of the sea, human vampires who preyed on the passengers crossing the Atlantic, men whose mission in life inspired Wilson Mizner’s play, “The Greyhound.” It is known that at least a score of these harpies were on board the lost ocean liner.
Old time card and confidence men had been waiting on the other side for months to procure passage on the big ship, anticipating the haul of their lives. It looked to them like an orchard of big plums. Their business was to get on board and do the picking. Some of these men had been “following the sea” for years—their home was the sea. And now by one of the inscrutable tricks of fate their burial place is the sea.
It is impossible to get the names of all of them, for they invariably traveled under assumed names, sometimes as millionaires, sometimes merely as well to do manufacturers. It is known on the Great White Way that no less than a half dozen gangs of the crooks were waiting to embark on the steamer. Reports reached here that some of them got away in the lifeboats, and it is an even bet on Broadway that if there was a chance “for a minute” more than one got into the boats as a sailor or as a shrieking woman in distress.
“Buffalo” Murphy, it is said, is numbered among those who went to the bottom in the Titanic. “Old Man” Jordan is another, and Jim Kitchener is said to have found his last “sitting.” “One Arm” Mac has found his last “sitting.” Silverton is another who is said to have “lost out” on the wrong confidence game.
Silverton is credited with having been gifted with the greatest “gall” of all the merchant sailors of the sea. The story is told on the Rialto that he was the mainspring of Mizner’s “Greyhound,” that he was the “greyhound” himself. He traveled under various aliases, one being J. Brayton Coleman. Once he met the original on board ship, and that was a very disastrous voyage for him. Mr. Coleman heard of his impersonation and went to Silverton’s stateroom and, pulling him out of bed, administered to him the soundest thrashing he had ever known.
The passing of “Buffalo” Murphy is a “cinch” according to advices from the other side. He was booked on the Titanic, as usual assuming the name of J. W. White, the chewing gum man of national reputation. Murphy was a steady ocean traveler in the spring and summer season. For the last fifteen years he never missed a trip and the Titanic looked to him the biggest game that he had ever been permitted to “sit in.” He was “lost in the shuffle,” at which he had been so great an adept. He was one of the original street fair fakers and an all around “skin game” man. He never spent a cent and was said to be worth $200,000,
“Old Man” Jordan was 80 years old and they say along Broadway that he had been cheating for seventy-five of these years. He was comfortably fixed in France—was well off, in fact—but the lure of the first trip of the Titanic was too much for him. He yielded for the last time to the call of the sea and “cashed in,” in response to the call. He has played the gamut of the crooks from gold bricks to green goods and generally got the money.
Jim Kitchener hailed from the Middle West and was one the best card sharpers in the country. He had “followed the sea” for the last ten years, playing the ocean seasons as other men played the races. Only he took no chances and got away with the coin. He played the game once too often.
“One Arm” Got Money
“One Arm” Mac had all the card men on both sides of the Atlantic backed off the board. He used his arm to better advantage than most men use both members. The fact that he had only one wing rarely attracted suspicion to him, and he raked in the money fast. He had impersonated nearly every big business man in the world. No doubt is entertained that Mac has “passed” for the last time.
“Black Mike”—nobody seems to have known what his name really was—was another of the old time crooks who has been gathered in by the Great Policeman. There will be no further need for his picture, which adorned the rogues’ gallery. Mike was one of the old time and surest of “con” men. His great stunt was tapping the wires. He made his victim believe that he was getting inside information on the races by having a confederate tap the wires. He never tapped the wires, but always got the money. He made baskets of money, but the fare banks got most of it in the wind-up.
____________________________ |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 501
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 12:17 pm: |
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Hi Thomas
Unfortunately, an article such as this was used in a 2 part article called, Fate Deals a Hand. It contained most of the myths and erroneous stories about the gamblers. Although research techniques have improved since that article was written, the lack of corroboration in those far fetched stories should have been a warning bell to the author.
Gene Rayburn: Good answer Joyce! (Gene rolls eyes and scowls)
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12054
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 3:09 pm: |
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>>It contained most of the myths and erroneous stories about the gamblers.<<
Yet another example of why newspaper articles should be treated with caution and even extreme skepticism. While there were professional gamblers/con men on the Titanic, they were a problem on all passenger vessels, and appear to have been reletively few in numbers on this voyage.
And "...half dozen gangs of the crooks..." is more then a bit of a stretch. One thing I suppose such articles can be useful for is showing where some of the Titanic mythology started in the first place.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Lester Mitcham
Member
Username: lester
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 11:33 pm: |
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>>And "...half dozen gangs of the crooks..." is more then a bit of a stretch.<<
For a more recent study of the gamblers I refer you to: A Thorough Analysis of the “Cave List” by Daniel Klistorner. The names of 5 such gentlemen appear on the Southampton Boarding List and the onboard Passenger List. - 2 failed to board. - 10 had sailed a week earlier on the Olympic. |
Daniel Klistorner
Member
Username: danielr
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2007 - 1:02 pm: |
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You beat me to it Lester! I was going to say hold your horses guys; while attributing all the gamblers to the Titanic is a bit much, there were indeed at least 5 or 6 (there's your half dozen) gamblers that did intend to sail on Titanic. In the article I do give a list of all those gamblers and you might even be able to recognise some of the names when compared to the article. One name that is easily recognisable is that of "Buffalo" Murphy, who indeed saied on Olympic on April 3, one week before the Titanic -- having booked himself on as Mr. W. J. White.
Daniel. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12069
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 6:05 am: |
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I think the operative term was "half a dozen gangs of crooks." That's a somewhat different animal from half a dozen seperate individuals, although I wouldn't be surprised if a few of these blokes worked together when it suited them. Some of these unholy alliances wouldn't last long beyond the voyage but then they didn't have to.
Anyone of have any examples of this sort of thing?
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Daniel Klistorner
Member
Username: danielr
Post Number: 1414
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 4:51 am: |
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Michael
George Behe in his article goes into detail about how these guys operated. They didn't usually work alone and indeed worked in groups. It has been some time since I read the article, but from memory, although working in groups, they would each have a different task to perform. One would "befriend" a passenger, another would cheat him out of his money at the table where they all played.
I guess it depends on how you define "gang" but there were certainly at least 16 gamblers that made their way eastbound to the English coast, with at least 5 intending to sail on Titanic and then the 16 eventually sailing on three different ships. Assuming a "gang" would consist of two or three gamblers, you can easily split all 16 into "half a dozen gangs of crooks".
I can't really vouch for the article's accuracy, but where it really oversteps on exaggeration however is assuming that all those gamblers came back on Titanic.
Best Regards,
Daniel.
PS. Going back to my previous post, I said (without checking) that Mr. W. J. White sailed on Olympic. He in fact intended to sail on Titanic but cancelled at the last minute and sailed on the Celtic instead. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 12083
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 2:40 pm: |
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Thanks for that information, Daniel. I don't recall ever reading George's article, but I'm not really surprised at what he found on how these people operated. It's much the same way that a lot of street swindlers work today with shell games and three card monte.
I suppose what one considers a gang depends on your perspective. Two or three people just don't strike me as such, but others may see it differently.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Timothy Trower
Member
Username: tjtrower
Post Number: 165
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 3:21 pm: |
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Both copies of the Commutator containing George Behe's two part series "Fate Deals a Hand" are available through the THS website at http://secured.titanichistoricalsociety.org/store/tek9.asp?pg=products&grp=34
Tim Trower
www.titanicbranson.com
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Daniel Klistorner
Member
Username: danielr
Post Number: 1415
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
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Michael
While I'm sure there was no limit as such, assuming that a normal card game would constitute 4 card players, gamblers working in groups would need to form teams/gangs of a maximum of 3 people, of course to have an extra space for the unsuspecting passenger. Given this, the fact that large groups would only draw attention & suspicion and the nature of their "trade", it would be impractical for them to form gangs of any more than 3 people.
Daniel. |
Tad G. Fitch
Member
Username: tad_fitch
Post Number: 212
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 4:06 am: |
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"Although research techniques have improved since that article was written, the lack of corroboration in those far fetched stories should have been a warning bell to the author."
I have noted similar details that should have been "warning bells" to certain other Titanic researchers as well before they formulated their opinion, but I will take the higher road and not take the liberty of listing their mistakes here. Nobody's work is perfect, we all have typos, mistakes, evidence that emerged after the fact that disproves an opinion, etc. in our published work. To pretend otherwise is simply foolish and arrogant.
Certainly, new research has been uncovered since George's articles were published, by several researchers, not the least of which include Phil Gowan and George himself. However, I think that if one sets personal feelings aside, all would agree that George's article provided some very valuable insight and original information about how these gamblers and card sharps operated, as well as the basis for establishing some of their identities. That is why the articles are still in high demand and in print by the THS nearly 24+ years after they were published.
I hope all of you had a great weekend.
Kind regards,
Tad |
Daniel Klistorner
Member
Username: danielr
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 4:55 am: |
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Tad
Thank you very much for your input. Although 24 years after being published George's article may benefit from an update, I still think it is an incredible piece of research and certainly still holds a lot of merit today. When George wrote it, despite a number of passenger lists being available at the time, there was no definitive passenger list or volume of research to confirm or deny just who was on Titanic (there is still some contention today – but this area of Titanica has come a long way).
Despite being a little exaggerated, the newspaper article used in George's Commutator article actually holds a fair bit of merit - as I tried to point out. I think we sometimes too easily dismiss a period article as being erroneous without realising that not all of them are.
The newspaper article was written to entice the audience to read it and although not all those gamblers were on the Titanic, there is still enough truth in that colourful article which simply needs to be aligned with credible sources to be able to see the real picture.
George explains how these gamblers operated and taking that into account it is not impossible that a "gang" indeed consisted of 2 or 3 people. There were at least 16 gamblers and 5 or 6 of them were going to sail on Titanic. Some of the names of the known gamblers from passenger lists can be corroborated with those in the article.
I am actually very impressed about just how good George’s article really is and it holds up very well even after 24+ years. There is many a research from decades past that has since been proved wrong or would need significant overhaul. While George’s article could do with some changes, it would be more to fill in the gaps rather than to correct any great mistakes.
Daniel. |
Michael Poirier
Member
Username: mike_poirier
Post Number: 502
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 1:21 pm: |
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I took the time to re-read the article by George Behe, before my original posting. I think it would be ashame that one could not post a critique about research and research techniques.
But to be fair, one should list the pluses with the minuses. On the plus side, I did enjoy the sequence in the smoking room. Although, it was somewhat reminiscient of the scene from the book ANTR, I found it to be interesting who was there and what they were doing; A solidly written sequence. As pointed out, the life of the ocean going gambler is examined and is also interesting. On the minus, not only the assumption of certain gamblers being on board, also there is little info on the real gamblers. Not so much their on board activities, but their personal lives. There is more on the gamblers that were not on board, than the real gamblers.
Well, I am glad someone will take the high road.
Although, if people did not take time to dig for the correct info or point out inconsistencies, the real info may not surface. I think that would be a disservice. Imagine if no one posted on the Californian incident. Although, in the end, there is no answer, there are points that can be corrected. To stay silent, would be a shame- dont you agree? Of course, we have seen sly and obvious digs with people using fake personas on boards or via snail mail to 'critique' someones work or offer 'research'.
The good thing about ET is that we know exactly who is making the comment and thank goodness for the public forum of a message board.
Gene Rayburn: Good answer Joyce! (Gene rolls eyes and scowls)
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