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Mike
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 1999 - 11:45 pm: |       |
Walter Lord recounts that Steward Hart escorted his first group of third class women and children to boat 8, just as that boat was leaving. What happened to them after that? The lifeboat lists show only five women and children in boat 10, one in boat 12, and four in boat 14. Did they all go back inside to keep warm, and maybe emerge later (or not)? Did they wander to the starboard side? Did they remain in a group and leave together in boat 16 (which held many Irish women from third class)? Any theories? |
Glenn Miller
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 1999 - 11:46 pm: | |
My theory: I think many things conspired that kept people out of the boats. First, the Titanic was in the North Atlantic Shipping Lane. This was essentially a freeway for ships. The passengers on the Titanic had seen many ships pass throughout the day and days leading up to Sunday night. Some could even see the Mystery ship (arguably the Californian) and word must have passed to reinforce the notion that the life boats were merely a means to getting to one of these nearby ships. Poor decisions were made regarding the cold, confluence of class, the cacophony, the assumption of "unsinkable" and the lack of coordinated leadership from the ships crew. Steward Hart's intention below deck could have easliy been significantly changed when he arrived at the boat deck as he continued to gather information key to every decision he was able to make. |
David Gleicher (Davidg)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2000 - 5:10 pm: | |
I'm very interested in the treatment of the third class passengers, a major issue being their access to the lifeboats, and have found almost no verification of Steward Hart's testimony. Does anybody know of any? As you say, there were no third class passengers in Boat 8, and indeed significant numbers of third class passengers loaded into lifeboats didn't occur until around 1:30 - 1:35, some 20 to 45 minutes after these thirty or so women were putatively taken to the boat deck. I would note that while Lord, and more recently Butler set a great deal of store in Hart's testimony, other writers like Geoffrey Marcus and Paul Quinn ignore it entirely. Quinn focuses instead on the testimony of Abelseth on the issue of third class passengers to the lifeboats in general. |
Peter Engberg-Klarström (Peter)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 11:50 am: | |
Dear David, steward Hart's testimony is very interesting indeed. He stated he took a group of women and children to boat 8, yet nobody in the vicinity seems to recall this particular incident. Then he said he took about 25 women and children to boat 15 and they all left in it; I have a feeling the number he brought on deck was significantly lower than 25, probably eight or ten if even that; there were very few women in boat 15, and some of them didn't come on deck in groups. I have read that Mrs Johnson and her two children said something to this effect; a steward led them up on deck, but that is it. I am sure there would be more cases, however.
Another incident alleged to have occurred at boat 15 is that men tried to 'rush' the boat. I don't really know where this comes from? Murdoch apparently said they could fill the boat up with men standing nearby (according to steward Rule)since there were no more women/children nearby. I believe the men just entered the boat without further ado, but it would be interesting to know where the idea comes from that men tried to rush boat 15.
Peter |
David Gleicher (Davidg)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2000 - 11:07 pm: | |
Peter,
Thanks for your response (particularly since we seem to agree). I'd appreciate any specific reference you might have on Mrs. Johnson.
There is one other possible exception to the silence on Steward Hart. According to Wetterholm, Mrs. Pekka Pietra Hakkerainen (maiden name, Matilda Dolk) joined a group of steerage passengers being collected by a steward, guiding them to the boat deck.
Mrs. Hakkarainen did end up in lifeboat 15 along with Hart, and this brief account does seem in line with Hart's testimony. On the other hand, if it is Hart, then it speaks to the probability of third class women waiting on the boat deck for as long as 45 minutes to get on lifeboats, since Mrs. Hakkarainen in this same account is brought to the lifeboat by an officer who came up to her on the boat deck and told her there was space for one more woman in a nearby boat. This would mean that she would have have been in the first group brought to the boat deck by Hart, not the second.
In any case, since she does not name Hart, and as you say there is a paucity of collaborative evidence in general for Hart's testimony, this does not lend all that much support for it.
DG |
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