| Author |
Message |
    
leonard schwartz
Member
Username: coonsanders
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 8:55 pm: | 
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hi
does anybody have a picture of billy carters new
renault car that went down with the ship??
leonard schwartz |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2003 - 4:43 am: |
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Hi leonard!
While no known photographs of the Renault or of any of the cargo holds are known to exist, Bill Carter's new Renault would have looked similar if not identical to the picture I have posted.
Thanks,
Brian
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 770
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2003 - 3:57 pm: |
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In common with many other car makers in that period, Renault sold only the 'rolling chassis' and the customer would need to arrange for a coachbuilder to add the bodywork, for which there were no standard designs. So we have no way of knowing what Carter's Renault looked like, except for the distinctive engine cover which generally came with the chassis.
I would say that it did have coachwork, as the insurance valuation is too high for a chassis only. It is sometimes described as a 'touring car' or 'tourer', which at that time was used to designate an open car - not ideal for the antics of Jack and Rose, even if it had not been crated!
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Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2003 - 4:42 pm: |
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Hi Bob!
I got a laugh from the Jack and Rose comment! I was not familiar with Renault being sold only as a rolling chassis, similar though to my favorites Duesenberg and Bugatti, both of which I have detailed webpages about, however I based the picture I posted on what I had read and the different TV and movie depictions of the car.
Thanks,
Brian |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 772
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2003 - 5:28 pm: |
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Hi, Brian. Duesenberg and Bugatti - you are a man of taste and discernment! I love both marques, but I think if I had to choose I'd be driving a Duesy SSJ. All I need is a winning line on the lottery. |
leonard schwartz
Member
Username: coonsanders
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2003 - 7:53 pm: |
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hi brian
cool looking car!!id love to see what it looks
like now!!
lenny |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 33
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2003 - 10:46 pm: |
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Lenny,
That car I posted is just a general concept of what I base the Carter car to have looked like having read descriptions and seen numerous depictions, the actual car was an open tourer. Sadly I do not think the car survived the sinking, all searches of the cargo hold where the car was stored yielded were rusticles and debris, nothing resembling a car.
Thanks,
Brian |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 34
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2003 - 10:54 pm: |
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Hi Bob!
Thanks for the compliment. I do admire the 1935 SSJ, though my favorite Duesenberg of all time is the 1933 "20 Grand" showcar :-) Here are the links to my pages. I suggest you adjust your monitor size to 1280 X 1024 as that will yield the best picture quality.
www.angerlfire.com/me4/zoltancarnovaush/Duesenberg.html
www.angelfire.com/me4/zoltancarnovaush/Royale.html
Best Regards,
Brian |
Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 776
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 7, 2003 - 11:49 pm: |
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Already been there, Brian! The 'Twenty Grand' is a fine motor, to be sure, but I prefer the lines of a Murphy roadster. Harder to pick a favourite Bugatti - for me it's a choice between the Type 35B and the type 55. But since the lottery has so far failed to deliver, what the hell. You need to change the Duesy link, by the way - check the spelling of 'angelfire'.
Cheers,
Bob |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 35
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 8, 2003 - 12:25 am: |
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www.angelfire.com/me4/zoltancarnovaush/Duesenberg.html
Thanks,
Brian |
Philip Hind
Administrator
Username: admin
Post Number: 757
Registered: 12-1999
| | Posted on Friday, August 8, 2003 - 8:44 am: |
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Please don't stray any further off-topic this is not a car showroom. |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 36
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 8, 2003 - 12:45 pm: |
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For Leonard,
I've found a more exact match to what the Carter car was described to have looked like, and this print concurs with the popular writings and TV and movie depictions as well, it is a 1911 Renault AX Limousine.
And to clarify things from Cameron's movie, the Jack and Rose back seat scene would not have happened in reality because the car would have been crated for shipping and would not be unpacked until it reached the New York docks
Best Regards,
Brian
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leonard schwartz
Member
Username: coonsanders
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 8, 2003 - 7:57 pm: |
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hi brian-still a neat looking car this lomo!!
lenny |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 48
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 8, 2003 - 9:27 pm: |
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Yes, it is a very beautiful car, entirely hand built too - would be worth a fortune if you had one today  |
Deborah Russes
Member
Username: violet
Post Number: 104
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 9, 2003 - 3:30 am: |
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I read somewhere that cars on a ship would have been disassembled to a point just for shipping purposes...which means the car wouldn't look as it did. |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 49
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 9, 2003 - 3:53 am: |
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Hi Deborah,
No one knows for certain what the actual car looked like except Billy Carter, but he did not leave any descriptions unfortunately. But we have reliable sources that say it was a 1911 Renault Limousine, probably with AX coachwork as I depicted, and of a wine red color with black fenders. But anyways, the car would not be "disassembled" so to speak for shipping, meaning nothing so far as the coachwork or mechanical equipment would be removed, but rather would have been set up on its axles with securing blocks to the shipping pallet with the tires lashed to the crate sides, then the car may have been covered with linen or some other soft covering for protection from dust, scratches etc, then the whole thing was packaged up for shipping. So had the car not been in a big wooden box, it would most likely look like my picture but without the tires.
Best regards,
Brian
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 795
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 9, 2003 - 12:30 pm: |
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Brian, 'AX' was the model name for Renault's 8hp chassis, an economy model often used for taxicabs. Carter bought the much larger and more powerful 35hp chassis. As you say, he did not leave any description of the car. Could you please identify the reliable sources which describes the coachwork as a limousine painted wine red with black fenders? Thanks.
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Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 56
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 5:16 am: |
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Hi Bob!
I was unaware of the exact specifics of the chassis model, being more read in American classics like Auburn and Duesenberg. I identified the picture as the car as I had seen and read it being depicted, I was also unaware that the Model "AX" was used for taxis. As for the source of the coachwork colors, I believe I read that in "Titanic: An Illustrated History" it was either in the Forward or somewhere in the text and was quoted by Ken Marschall, so I thought coming from him, it would be pretty reliable.
Thanks,
Brian |
Jim McAnlis
Member
Username: brasscars
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 2, 2004 - 9:35 pm: |
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Hi guys! Yes, Renault did not make car bodies early on, only chassis. They were sent to body makers similar to what you have already pointed out. Multiple cargo lists identify the car as a 35 hp Renault limousine, so the car was probably already bodied in somewhere the UK prior to being loaded on the ship. In 1912, the majority of automobile body makers were in England. A 35 hp Renault corresponds to a large 7.5 liter Renault AI. Visit http://www.brassauto.com/brass-pages/index.html and look under the Renault section. View Renault AI – McAnlis. Just envision this chassis with a large limousine body. There are only about 12 of these AI’s left in the world. The 13th just happens to be at the bottom of the ocean. Queue the creepy music. |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 550
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 1:37 am: |
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Hi Jim,
Renault was one of many European auto marquees that only built chassis which were then sent to private coachbuilders for finishing. This is a practice that continued with both European and American automobile chassis well into the mid 1930’s, the most notable being the Duesenberg.
Bill Carter did indeed purchase a 1912 Renault 35hp chassis while in France, and the car was indeed bodied before being loaded aboard the Titanic. However the model of the Renault was not the AI. The AI series was an open five passenger Tourer, the predecessor to the later Phaeton.
The style of body used on the Carter Renault featured a fully enclosed, glass partitioned passenger compartment with an open air chauffeur’s compartment with a detachable roof, a style commonly known as the “Town Car” or “Town Brougham” and such bodies were very pricey and would be found on only the finest cars of the era.
Below is a photo I took at a recent car show when I quite fortunately came across one only a handful of 1912 35hp Renault Town Car Limousines known to survive.
The car pictured is silver, however if you imagine it as being burgundy it would be identical to the Carter car.
Best Regards,
Brian
Damn the Torpedos - Full Speed Ahead! - RADM David G. Farragut
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 4, 2004 - 11:40 am: |
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Guys, if there are primary sources which provide any information at all about the coachwork on Carter's Renault, would you please identify these sources. Thanks in advance. |
Jim McAnlis
Member
Username: brasscars
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 4, 2004 - 4:30 pm: |
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Thanks for the fast reply Brain. I am impressed at the amount of responses that you have added to this site. It’s wonderful to see the younger generation with a healthy appetite for history. You should tailor your schooling to one day be a museum curator. A person that can recall a wealth of information about many historical things. As for the 35 hp Renault, just as you mentioned above, “Renault only built chassis which were then chassis which were then sent to private coachbuilders.” I’m not quite sure where the Duesenberg reference came from. Not may Duesenberg’s were hanging around in 1912. Rolls –Royce would be a much better comparison. Rolls made lots of cars and at the time the Silver Ghost model was the benchmark. It was produced from 1907 to about 1925. Interestingly enough, Rolls did not make a body until about 1937. Up until then they to used body makers such as Barker, Hooper, Mann Egerton and Labourdette. These are the same ones that Renault was using at the time. Basically the coachbuilder built whatever they were paid to build. So, yes, limousine bodies were fitted to many Renault chassis. The Renault leather bound original ledgers still exist that contains “all” of the chassis numbers & engine number, HP, date of manufacture, number of cylinders and rear end ratio and the person or company that bought the automobile. Unfortunately, flipping through the ledger, it’s quite easy to see that there were few individuals that bought a car directly from the Renault factory. Every other line identifies automobile dealer / Co. / Ltd. that purchased slew of cars. The first owner then purchased the car from the dealer. This is where the trail goes cold and is probably the case with the Carter car. By 1912, Renault had produced about 34,000 cars. You can probably start your search for the car starting in 1911 through early 1912 and only include the 35 HP cars. Only the larger 4 cylinder & 6 cylinder cars produced and were sold as 35 HP cars. Good luck digging!
As for the silver car, metallic paint was not used on a automobile until 1925 with the exception of some limited striping. The silver automobile pictured above was used in the movie and was dolled up especially for the camera. |
Jim McAnlis
Member
Username: brasscars
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 4, 2004 - 6:24 pm: |
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Also, I'll side with Brian that it was burgundy.
:-) |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 551
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 5:07 am: |
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Hi Jim,
I believe you misunderstood my earlier reference to the Duesenberg when referring to Renault chassis.
Duesenberg Motors did not begin producing passenger cars until 1921 with the unsuccessful Model A. The Model J and Model SJ of 1929 - 1937 are two of the most widely recognized symbols of wealth, luxury and custom coach built automobiles in the world.
I am well aware of the custom carrosiers of the first half of the 20th century and they built some of the most beautiful bodies for some of the world’s most expensive cars, Renault included.
However I have no definitive proof as to the body on the Carter Renault aside from vague references to it being a “Limousine” and the most common limousine coach style of the era based on the many cars European and Domestic I have studied was the elegant “Town Car” or “Town Brougham” and every mention or depiction of the Renault has been of that coachwork style.
As for metallic finishes, they were available to those who could afford them. Up until the introduction of Nitrocellulose paint in the 1920's, several coats of hand brushed lacquer was used to paint the coachwork of an automobile, and the 1907 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost is a testament to this process, the name coming from the all silver coachwork and the ghostly silence of the engine when running.
Best Regards,
Brian
Damn the Torpedos - Full Speed Ahead! - RADM David G. Farragut
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Bob Godfrey
Member
Username: bobgod1
Post Number: 1607
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 12:59 pm: |
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If we speculate on the basis of known facts, the only real clue I've seen so far is the insurance valuation of the car, which was around £1000. As I have stated before, that suggests the car had been provided with coachwork of some kind as it is too high for the price of the chassis alone, but it is far short of the value of the chassis fitted with any kind of formal enclosed coachwork.
The figure matches quite closely the cost of the chassis plus a relatively lightweight open touring body like that shown in one of Jim's photos (follow his link). Many such were fitted to Rolls Royce's £1000 40/50 chassis (the famous 'Silver Ghost') at an extra cost of less than £200. Formal enclosed bodywork, on the other hand, would have cost at least £1000 (and considerably more in many cases) in addition to the price of the chassis.
The French auto industry was at that time bigger and in many ways more advanced than that of England, so I wouldn't assume that the car was bodied in the UK. The quality of French coachbuilding was second to none, and companies like Rothschild of Paris were the design fashion leaders of the day and operated on a huge scale. For limousine coachwork, excluding what you had paid for the chassis, Rothschilds charged anything up to £4000.
That is why I believe it most likely that the Carter Renault was a tourer. But I'm open to persuasion that it was a brougham or a limo, burgundy in colour if you like, if anyone can provide the evidence. |
Jim McAnlis
Member
Username: brasscars
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 1:32 pm: |
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Hats off to you Brian and Bob! You guys are great! There are not to many of us that have all of these same questions swirling around in our heads. Even if the coachwork is totally deteriorated beyond recognition, I hope that someday someone will find and bring up the Renault’s brass dash plaque that is stamped with the chassis number, the number of cylinders and the model designation. Yep, it’s down there, if not for us then for the next generation to find! |
Brian R Peterson
Member
Username: brian_peterson
Post Number: 552
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 6, 2004 - 1:08 am: |
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Well Bob,
The only people who know what the car actually looked like were the factory workers who built it, the salesman who sold it and Bill Carter himself - unfortunately for us, they are all well deceased.
Equally tragic, this was also before it was common practice for high end chassis manufacturers to photograph all custom coachwork vehicles as well as recording the year, make, model, VIN, chassis and engine numbers for their records prior to delivery, leaving an indelible record of the vehicle's existence such as Duesenberg had. 
Best Regards,
Brian
Damn the Torpedos - Full Speed Ahead! - RADM David G. Farragut
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Eddie Petruskevich
Member
Username: cunardvoyager1907
Post Number: 21
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 11:36 pm: |
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Interesting to see on Ghosts of the Abyss what they believed to be the remains of the Renault - what looked like a wheel cover and headlight. I think some want to find the car so badly they convince themselves that is what the images were.. I know I have.
Regards,
Eddie Petruskevich
http://westphalia101.tripod.com |
