| Author |
Message |
    
Daniel Bentley
Member
Username: danb
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 2:08 am: | 
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Has the Oklahoma ever been positively identified? I know that she sank while under tow 750 miles out of Pearl harbor in '43. From the post-salvage pics it seems that all the superstructure was stripped away.
Would be a cool wreck, even if, as is most likely, its upside down in the mud for a second time. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9141
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 4:23 am: |
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As far as I know, nobody has even bothered to look for her. It's extremely unlikely that he would be upside down. When a ship sinks in deep water, it tends to right itself, much like what happened with the Bismarck.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Daniel Bentley
Member
Username: danb
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 6, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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Huh. I didn't know that. One more piece of Information That I Will Not Use In My Lifetime. |
Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 178
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 2:20 am: |
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I wonder if the removal of her superstructure, and the corresponding change in Cp versus Cg would do to her sinking hydrodynamics?
I did a quick google last night, most sources refer to parting her tow line, but don't say what caused her to sink...
Wayne |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9156
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 3:30 am: |
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>>I wonder if the removal of her superstructure, and the corresponding change in Cp versus Cg would do to her sinking hydrodynamics?<<
I doubt it helped much. The Oklahoma was little more then a bombed out hulk with some patches over the holes and that's it. Storms are not kind to badly damaged ships and if the thing wasn't ballested down properly, all bets would be off. Since the last time anyone saw the ship was when the tow parted...the sinking itself wasn't seen by anybody as far as I know...there's really no way to tell for sure what happened unless somebody finds the wreck.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 179
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 5:37 am: |
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I had a mental picture of, after the tow line parting, the ship turning the wrong way to a wave, and it was over and out.
Maybe I should add this one to my "find when I a superman list" ;)
Wayne |
Daniel Bentley
Member
Username: danb
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 5:44 pm: |
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Think about it--she had been belly up in oil-soaked water for 3 or 4 years after taking several torpedoes. Then they try to tow it thousands of miles through open sea.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/37b.htm
Raising and stripping. |
Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 180
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 9:42 pm: |
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Thanks for the link sir!
Wayne |
Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 128
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 3:58 am: |
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Oklahoma was hit by at least 6 torpedoes, so the damage to her side was extensive.
Is you look for "Resurrection", Salvaging the battle fleet at Pearl Harbor, it has a photo of her after righting with coffer dams in place- it was a major undertaking to right her. Areas of her side were gone, and water was only kept out by the dams, so with damage that extensive, it is not surprising that any repair for her trip to the scrapper failed.
I remember US Naval Institute Proceedings did a photo feature on USS Oklahoma in the 1970s, prior to '76 which had extensive photos of the salvage operation. If you can find it, it is worth a look.
I vaguely remember one photo being taken of her after the tow parted.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 181
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 4:32 am: |
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Some references indicate that she had started to list before the tow lines parted.
Wayne |
Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 183
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 5:10 am: |
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Ran across this:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h63000/h63917.jpg
Wayne |
Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 129
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 2:03 pm: |
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Great photo!
In Resurrection, it shows the problems they had getting her into drydock as the coffer dams extended below the curve of the hull blisters so her draft was way more than normal.
When the Pennsylvania, and Nevada classes were rebuilt in the early 1930s, the secondary battery (broadside guns) were raised one level, tripod masts replaced the basket masts, and blisters were added to the hull.
I might be wrong, but I think the blistering of the hull was primarly to handle the added displacement, and did not significantly increase their anti torpedo defense.
I will look in my Arizona book since the rebuilding of the ships was along a similar line.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 184
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 4:46 pm: |
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I was looking around last night and I found references to them fabricating large patches for certain ships, but they would not work due to warping and twisting of the hull.
The work that they did was amazingly challenging and I admire their persistence and skill...
Wayne |
Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 130
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
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My Arizona book was not very detailed on the subject, but it seemed to indicate the blisters were added buoyancy, probably also extra fuel bunkerage.
I have not seen a detained diagram about what was left, but depending on how intact the armor belt was (or wasn't)it might have had an effect on warping and twisting of the hull.
Given the damage, it would be interesting to see what was done to make her able to float for the tow-
One thing that struck me is that the main battery turrets did not leave the barbettes as she rolled over.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 186
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 6:11 pm: |
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Its enough of a challenge for me to put a desk together - my respect for the skills of those that can do huge things like this - well, I find myself looking way up at them.
To look at the picture I saw last night, its tough to imagine how you patch such a thing up and not have water leaking in when it just goes in the water, much less the open sea. Your observation earlier was spot on.
Wayne |
Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 131
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 9:39 pm: |
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I reread the chapter in Resurrection dealing with the Oklahoma salvage, it said that the torpedoes actually blasted away 40 some feet of armor belt. That had to have an effect on her strength.
The found two torpedo hits above the second deck which means she was hit after she began to roll over.
Cracks were found in the bottom which were thought to be from the stresses of rolling her over (Possibly loss of hull strength from the torpedo damage also)
Looking at the Norman Freidman design history of US Battleships, during the big refit, the Nevada class received a light antitorpedo bulkhead through the boiler rooms. I will read further tonight. Apparently the Pennsylvanias received slightly better.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 187
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 10:33 pm: |
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"The found two torpedo hits above the second deck which means she was hit after she began to roll over."
Fascinating.
"Cracks were found in the bottom which were thought to be from the stresses of rolling her over (Possibly loss of hull strength from the torpedo damage also)"
Very interesting. One would assume that rolling over and striking the bottom would put some strange stresses on the hull.
In fact, one wonders how there was enough "room" in that shallow a water to have it roll all the way over. I would really like to see an animation of that process.
Wayne |
Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 132
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 9, 2006 - 1:10 am: |
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Actually she rolled about 135 degrees before her superstructure struck bottom, it happened pretty rapidly.
You probably have seen this website, it's excellent!http://www.geocities.com/bb37usa/index.html
Click on "Oklahoma Salvage" for some excellent drawings of how she rolled over as well as drawings of her damage.
You might want to pick up "Resurrection,Salvaging The Battle Fleet At Pearl Harbor" by Madsen, it is excellent, and discusses the special problems of each ship individually.
It deals with sensitive issues such as removal of remains from the wrecks, and the problems caused by gas from decomposing organic matter which was both poisonous and explosive, and caused several serious accidents.
The other standard work on the Pearl Harbor salvage is "Pearl Harbor- Why, How, Fleet Salvage, and Final Appraisal" by Homer Wallin.
I also read a good account by one of the navy divers assigned to the salvage, if I remember, the title was "Up From The Darkness"
Probably the one with the worst damaged battleship to be recommissioned was West Virginia, she also had extensive torpedo damage, and for a time, they were concerned she also might capsize.
It is a testament that at the end, only Arizona, Oklahoma, and Utah were total losses (Utah was no longer a battleship, but an anti-aircraft training, and target ship.)
Interesting bit in Freidman's book, while Nevada was completed with turbines, her sister, Oklahoma was built with reciprocating engines.
As an interesting what if, because of the shortage of fuel oil, there was little opportunity to train at sea.
Admiral Kimmel had been sending the battle fleet to Lahaina Roads to anchor, to at least get the crews accustomed to being aboard ship for extended periods.
Had the attack taken place at the Lahaina Roads anchorage, rather than in the shallow, protected waters of Pearl Harbor, the number of ships lost for good might have been much higher, of course, the ships were not the only targets of the attack.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 188
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 9, 2006 - 1:56 am: |
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Wow, I didn't know that about "Lahaina Roads", that is utterly fascinating!
I was fascinated in some of my readings about several ships that were initially declared total losses that they changed their minds about.
When the Nevada/Oklahoma were built, turbines were still moderately new in ships of that size, were they not?
Wayne |
Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 189
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 9, 2006 - 2:02 am: |
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Ran across this reference just now:
http://users3.ev1.net/~cfmoore/operating%20systems/engine%20room/ENGINES.html
Wayne |
Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 133
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 9, 2006 - 3:15 am: |
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Great site, Wayne, I added it to my bookmarks-
I saw this site, and it explained something I had read-
http://www.ussoklahoma.com/
In "Battleship Sailor" by Theodore Mason (A great read! Highly Recommended!) he says Arizona, and Oklahoma had more than their share of disciplinary problems.
The site confirmed it, in Oklahoma's case, and reasoned it was because of a large number of Asiatic Fleet sailors who had a reputation for being a bit rough around the edges.
Battleship Sailor is great reading, he was stationed aboard USS California and describes life aboard a pre-war battleship.
BTW, he describes Lahaina Roads (nothing there) and talks about how much they hated Hawaii which, for enlisted sailors, was not quite the tropical paradise tourists flock to.
He witnessed the Pearl Harbor attack from the top of California's aft mast.
His description of watching the captain of a destroyer trying to get aboard his ship from a pilot boat as a junior officer was taking it out of the harbor at 20 knots under fire is priceless!
He also talks about after the attack, and concern that California also might turn over.
(Ships on the outboard moorings usually got the worst since thet were exposed to torpedo damage- Arizona was the exception, being hit by a bomb)
BTW, I grew up in the town that was the previous home port before the battleforce was moved to Pearl in 1940- San Pedro, California.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 190
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 9, 2006 - 4:29 am: |
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I really like the vintage music at that site. Normally, I don't like such things, but there are times when I hear music from that time that makes a weird connection with my late father.
He passed away about 4 years ago now, and I have those strange moments when - sounds particularly - trip off weird feelings of closeness to his youth. He would have just been a teenager then.
Sorry for injecting weird personal stuff into the discussions.
I'll see about getting hold of that book, thanks!
Wayne |
Wayne Keen
Member
Username: dockeen
Post Number: 191
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 9, 2006 - 4:30 am: |
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Tangential note. When I get interested in a topic, I do some "free form googling" on it, I ran across this discussion of the "standard" battleship design...
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-071.htm
Wayne |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 768
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 4:46 am: |
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Presumably this vessel which sank under tow had a riding crew?
And presumably they were all lost with the vessel?
I'd just like to see them get a mention...
Noel |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9165
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 5:24 am: |
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>>Presumably this vessel which sank under tow had a riding crew? <<
Not that I ever heard of. The Oklahoma was by this time nothing more then a gutted hulk and completely uninhabitable. There wouldn't be much point in having anyone aboard as far as I know. I've never heard of any casualties assocciated with this ship's final loss.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 134
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 5:24 am: |
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According to what I have read, they had two tugs for the trip, I have found no mention of a riding crew, and I have read several accounts.
Bearing in mind the nature of her damage, and the fact she was under water for almost two years before being raised, losing her the way they did was a possibility, and they probably did'nt want to risk a crew aboard her-at that point, she was a bombed out hulk, with a temporary repair over extensive torpedo damage.
Towing her from Hawaii to the states for scrapping would be viewed as a risky venture.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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James Smith
Member
Username: jds88
Post Number: 327
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 8, 2006 - 3:28 am: |
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In honor of the anniversary of the Pearl Harbor Attacks, the New York Times has released the full text of a six-part series detailing the salvage operations of the Oklahoma and other ships originally written in 1943. See the following link:
http://www.nytimes.com/opinion/opinionspecial/index.html
--Jim |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 22657
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 6:08 am: |
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From The Navy Times:
Ore. ensign who died at Pearl Harbor interred
quote:PORTLAND, Ore. — With his sister looking on, the ashes of Eldon Wyman have been interred in Portland — nearly 67 years after he died at Pearl Harbor.
More at http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/10/ap_pearharbor_102508/
Comment: This man was one of the 429 who died in the sinking and was identified through DNA.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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