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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9503
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 7:09 am: | 
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Story Number: NNS060306-13
Release Date: 3/6/2006 9:00:00 PM
From Commander, Submarine Force, U.S. Pacific Fleet Public Affairs
PEARL HARBOR, Hawaii (NNS) -- Honolulu's namesake ship is preparing to say farewell to its island home after two decades of service.
USS Honolulu (SSN 718), which is scheduled to inactivate next year, will hold a farewell ceremony April 15 prior to departing Hawaii on her final deployment to the Western Pacific.
For the rest of the story, go to http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22580
Comment: Only 20 years old and with a few more good years of useful service life left on the hull, I have to wonder if decommissioning this boat is a good idea.
I know, I know, money is tight and congressional budget cutters are having their way, but if the U.S. want the Navy to maintain a useful force level, they need to at least replace these boats as fast as they're being sent to the breakers and this isn't happening.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 157
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 1:35 pm: |
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I think the driving force aside from economics behind the retirement of the 688s is when they were coming up for refueling.
As I remember the reactor core on a 688 is good for approximatly 12 years. This might explain why the lead ship is still in commission while newer ones are decommissioned.
Heard on the radio the Seawolf class will be based out of Bangor Wa-
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9511
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 5:14 pm: |
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>>As I remember the reactor core on a 688 is good for approximatly 12 years. <<
That's about right. Recoring a nuclear reactor is an expensive proposition as well as an exact science in terms of proceedures and safety precautions. (Nobody wants to glow in the dark!) The cores for the subs and even the carriers now under construction are supposed to be good for the entire expected service life of the ship.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 159
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 9, 2006 - 5:00 pm: |
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>>Recoring a nuclear reactor is an expensive proposition as well as an exact science in terms of procedures and safety precautions. (Nobody wants to glow in the dark!)<<
In "The Complete Idiot's Guide To Submarines" it details a refueling in Soviet Russia where inadvertently the top of the reactor vessel was removed withdrawing the control rods making the reactor go critical and causing a steam explosion and irradiating part of the surrounding town. Quite a story!
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9520
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 9, 2006 - 7:00 pm: |
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Sounds like the Russians had idiots trying to work with that reactor! Any idea which boat this was? There were several they had problems with, including a few with some serious accidents.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 160
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:46 am: |
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Hi Michael,
He says it happened in 1985 at Chashma bay outside Vladivostok.
The boat was K-314, a Victor I.
It caused a "Prompt Critical Rapid Disassembly" contaminating 6 km of the peninsula and killing 10.
"Idiot's Guide" is very worthwhile, it has a better explanation of reactor operations than I have seen anywhere-
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9524
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:14 am: |
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Looks like I'm going to have to get a copy of this book then.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 161
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:26 am: |
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You won't be sorry, the aircraft carrier volume was a bit of a disappointment, but the submarine one is great!
BTW, out little accident was the SL-1 accident in Idaho which it also covers- interesting reading!
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 162
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:58 pm: |
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A list of Soviet nuclear submarine accidents is available on Bellona-
http://www.bellona.no/imaker?sub=1&id=11084#O14
Check out the section on dismantling the boats- scary especially about filling the ballast tanks of the older ones with polymer to keep them from sinking before they can get the fuel off-
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9530
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:43 pm: |
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>>scary especially about filling the ballast tanks of the older ones with polymer to keep them from sinking before they can get the fuel off-<<
Indeed...and unfortunately, they don't have much choice in the matter either. Quite a few of these boats were already in poor material condition when they were laid up, and having been laid up, not a lot of thought was given to preservation. Some of the old Soviet warships literally sank where they were left and nobody has bothered to do much about it.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 163
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 3:33 pm: |
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Even K-19, a Hotel class SSBN is still awaiting scrapping. About 33 years too late.
Those boats were frightening to begin with, putting to sea with liquid fuelled missiles-
There's something about sea water and nitric acid that makes me nervous.
Have you by chance read "Hostile Waters" by Peter Huchthausen? An excellent account of a Yankee class boomer (K-219) lost after a missile exploded in the tube taking out the reactor controls.(another type carrying liquid fuelled missiles.)
Crew had to enter the reactor compartment to lower the control rods manually to shut down the reactor.
(In Idiot's Guide he describes the failsafe features on reactors to make then scram if power fails)
You might remember when it happened in the 80s off Bermuda.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9538
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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>>There's something about sea water and nitric acid that makes me nervous.<<
A propensity perhaps to go BOOM?
That would make me edgy too. Unfortunately, the Russians didn't have a whole lot of options in this regard as their solid fuel technology was nowhere near as advanced as the west's, and cryogenic liquid fuels just weren't practical. That meant they had to use storable liquid propellants.
It did the job but as you mooted, it was tricky stuff. Not only corrosive as hell and needing little persuasion to react violently with something when you don't want it too, but toxic to boot.
I've never read the book you mentioned, but I'm aware of the incident you described. I may have to put it on my reading list.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 164
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 4:57 pm: |
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I really like Huchthausen, he also wrote "K-19 The Widowmaker" (The film deserves more praise than it gets,it is quite good, the more I read about the Hotel class, the more I see they got right) and "October Fury", about the nuclear torpedo armed Foxtrots that deployed to the Caribean during the Cuban Missile Crises. (Luckily the Soviets had some good people too, or that could have easily ended up differently)
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9540
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 5:55 pm: |
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Ahhhh...yes...the nuclear armed Foxtrots. What surprised me was the latitude the individual commander had in deciding whether or not to fire the bloody things. U.S. practice required presidential authorization to launch and if I recall correctly, it was widely assumed that the Soviets had even tighter controls for political reasons. Finding that the opposite was the case must have come as a nasty shock to those who make studying the Other Guy their life's work.
Fortunately, the skippers of those boats were very level headed guys.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 165
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:42 pm: |
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Many of which were in an uncomfortable situation with having a political officer aboard who was out of their chain of command-
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Richard Glueck
Member
Username: richard_glueck
Post Number: 101
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:30 pm: |
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I have often wondered if the US Navy, CIA, or similar outfit has sent an inspection team to the remains of the sunken Yankee. I gather it's in deep water between Bermuda and the US coast. I was unaware that much has been written about it, since the Soviets were so damn secretive. I would doubt that "Project Jennifer" has been entirely alone in terms of collecting wreck information on foreign vessels.
The Russian submarines awaiting scrapping in the Arctic are an environmental blight that has to be reckoned with. While they are a horror in a contained area today, they will be much, much, worse to deal with if left to corrode as they are, with many partially flooded at the mooring. |
Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 166
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:58 pm: |
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I've often wondered the same thing, I would imagine that area was high on their surveillance priorities when there was a fleet to enforce it.
Since the fall of the wall, though, I would think the boat would have little of intelligence value to justify going after it. When she put to sea, she was already old, and the newer Deltas had superseded her.
It is'nt just the area where the boats are docked, apparently in the 60s and 70s, the standard treatment for a damaged reactor was removal and dumping it at sea-
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9545
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 5:07 am: |
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>>I have often wondered if the US Navy, CIA, or similar outfit has sent an inspection team to the remains of the sunken Yankee.<<
If they did, the report is probably filed in the "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you" section of the records room. 20 years ago, there might have been some point in having a go at it, though I doubt what was available then would have allowed for more then photographing the exterior of the wreck.
These days, other then to keep an eye on the condition of the wreck, there really wouldn't be any point in doing so since so much more is known about these boats, and a lot of it in open literature.
I would be surprised if another Project Jennifer was attempted, though not because I think the intelligence agencies wouldn't want to have a go at it. The whole Project Jennifer thing was bloody expensive, and didn't produce much in the way of any tangible return. (At least none that the government will ever admit to anytime soon.) Congresscritters aren't keen to spend a lot of money these days...unless there's some benefit for their districts. A ship as big as the Glomar Exploerer is tough to hide, and tends to attract notice from nosy types like reporters.
Intelligence gatherers don't like a lot of attention, and it would be a lot easier to charter an NOAA craft with some ROV's to go out and have a descreet look see.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Richard Glueck
Member
Username: richard_glueck
Post Number: 102
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 1:24 pm: |
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I have to agree that anything made known to Congress would get squashed immediately. On the other hand, my guess is that the Navy has no doubt developed some other deep water investigation resource equipment. Something like the submarine "Halibut" probably exists covertly. It might not even be considered necessary to recover a wreck, so much as to probe or open it.
You are no doubt correct in assuming lack of need to investigate these ships today. Since the end of the "cold war", Soviet subs have been auctioned and opened to the world. I would hope our side has been clever enough to take advantage of that situation! One would hope this would likewise, give us insight into the Chinese, N. Korean, and other "wanna buy a used sub?" client's fleets.
For the most part, the interest in chasing down these wreck for exploration is simply in the excitement of finding them and examining the hulks. I doubt little in the way of military intelligence could be garnered. Hardly worth the expense, except to say it can be done. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9549
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 3:33 pm: |
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>>Something like the submarine "Halibut" probably exists covertly. <<
Perhaps not so covert. The Halibut was converted to her role from an SSGN design that was already obsolecent the day she was commissioned...but that old missile hanger was a useful place to stash some stuff. The USS Jimmy Carter has an additional 100 feet plugged in with special operations in mind.
It's nice to think the CIA has all sorts of whiz bang golly-gee-whiz-willikers-wow type of super technology aavailable which can allow them to do things regarded as impossible, and there's some merit to that. Not much really, but a little. However, they aren't giants and the only way they could lift a wreck from two or three miles down on the ocean floor would be to build something so big and so lavishly equipped, everybody would notice it.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 167
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 5:01 pm: |
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>>The Halibut was converted to her role from an SSGN design that was already obsolecent the day she was commissioned.<<
And Halibut was the replacement for another obsolete boat being used in the role- USS Seawolf (SSN-575)
It was funny, in the 1970s, when the DSRVs were being developed, I remember the navy saying they had appropriated funds for 2 DSRVs and a boilerplate HTV (Handling Training Vehicle) to train crews and at the time, I recall thinking why it would be mentioned in the budget since it was a very small item compaired to the larger program.
A short time later, Seawolf was photographed very publically leaving San Francisco with something that looked like a DSRV, but which obviously was'nt, and was identified as the HTV.
A few years ago, I was reading "Blind Man's Bluff" and it filled in the pieces talking about a secret program to wiretap the phonelines in the Barents sea using Seawolf, and carrying a saturation chamber for divers on her back.
Putting the facts together, it was too big to hide, so it was disguised as the DSRV-HTV.
It will be interesting to see what else comes out over the years.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9555
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 4:22 am: |
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>>I recall thinking why it would be mentioned in the budget since it was a very small item compaired to the larger program.<<
Perhaps because in terms of budgets, everything is mentioned. The exception being black programs but then those are concealed in other budgets yet even then, they are subject to Congressional review, even if it's behind closed doors.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 168
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 5:00 am: |
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Here is one of the photos, only in this case, Halibut is carrying it-
It is the approximate shape of a DSRV, but as you can see, it is not one.
From the descriptions in Blind Man's Bluff of the shape and size and where it was mounted,I think this was the saturation chamber mentioned.
http://www.geocities.com/ssn_587/hhh/images/halibut_ggb.jpg
Thinking back, I think the HTV was mentioned in Ships And Aircraft Of The U.S. Fleet. It would have been convenient to explain a strange object being carried by a US sub.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Richard Glueck
Member
Username: richard_glueck
Post Number: 103
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:11 pm: |
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Now here's a thought... Take one of the soon to be retired aircraft carriers and modify it to scoop up wreckage off the sea floor! Expensive, yes. Impractical? Yes. Outrageous? Yes. Large enough to hold anything of interest? Yes.
Simply a whim, not a venture into reality. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9561
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 7:52 pm: |
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>>Simply a whim, not a venture into reality.<<
Quite right. With nearly a third of the ship's length taken up by the main propulsion plant, there would be nothing that could be built that wouldn't take out the engine rooms.
Regarding the object that was photographed on the Halibut, I'd be leery of overthinking things here. Certainly the object is large enough to hide all sorts of interesting things...and for all I know, it might have...but it's also the right size and shape for a DSRV, and was used for excactly the training and compatability trials claimed.
To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, sometimes, a cigar really is just a cigar.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 169
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 5:26 am: |
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Hi Michael,
Here is artwork from the USS Halibut website showing deployment of divers from the lockout chamber-
If you have a chance to read the parts of Blind Man's Bluff dealing with Halibut, and these missions,please do- it is quite interesting. (I think you will come to the same conclusion I did after reading it.)
I have seen other photos of the object, but I have never seen a photo of her actually carrying a DSRV. The shape is the same, but details show it not to be. (I am pretty familiar with the genuine article through volunteer work at the Naval Undersea Museum at Keyport.)
http://www.geocities.com/ssn_587/hhh/diverdep.html
It might be just a cigar, but I thought the timing and size was a little too much on a coincidence.
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Richard Glueck
Member
Username: richard_glueck
Post Number: 104
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:38 pm: |
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When our nukes are written off, do they remove the reactors and scrap the vessel (sub) hull and pressure hull, or are they maintained in a mothball fleet for any duration? My guess is the hulls would be pretty high grade steel alloy, and quite valuable as scrap. What becomes of the nuclear reactors themselves? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9572
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 2:18 am: |
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A nuclear powered vessel which is being decommissioned first enters into a special availabilty where the ship is placed into drydock, the hull is stripped of any and all useful parts and systems, the reactor defueled, and the core placed into storage. Unlike Russian practice, it is not reproccessed. At some point, the ship is decommissioned and striken from the Naval Vessels Register the same day.
If it's a surface vessel, she also has her superstructure removed down to the level of the main deck after which the hull. The gutted hull is then towed to the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard where it's stored until space becomes available in a drydock to complete the dismantaling process. The reactor room is removed and taken to the Hanford facility for burial, and the rest of the hull is cleaned out then scrapped.
You can read a more in depth article of how it's done at http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/disposal/proe1210.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship-Submarine_recycling_program
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Hathaway
Member
Username: compassrose
Post Number: 170
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 4:57 am: |
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I was noticing the decommissioned LA class SSNs-I know Baton Rouge had suffered damage as a result of a collision with a Russian sub. I wonder how bad the damage was. She was decommissioned right after.
I see Boston went early too, I wonder if that might have been a result of damage or whether it was an economy move?
Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi-...
Akiyama Saneyuki
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 9574
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
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A lot of the decommissionings were simply economy moves. Some might have had some issues with their overallmaterial condition, but nearly every one of these boats was removed from service at about the time the reactors were due for re-coring.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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