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Message |
    
james harris
Member
Username: camatic
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 8:01 pm: | 
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just wanted to know if there has ever been a ship wreck like titanic (going down bow first at night etc)
thanks
camatic |
Russell Smith
Member
Username: colonialmarine0431
Post Number: 340
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 8:20 pm: |
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That's a pretty broad statement. Many have. But not on the scale of Titanic. I believe the USS Indianapolis went down by the bow too.
“Getting there is half the fun” - Cunard Line
41° 46' N, 50° 14' W
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Ellen Grace Butland
Member
Username: elgrace
Post Number: 88
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 2:34 am: |
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some years later there was a Norwegian (I think) ship which hit an iceberg and sank on the return leg of her maiden voyage. She had gone to Greenland and was on the way home. I cannot remember her name at present but she had passengers. |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:32 am: |
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What about the Empress Of Ireland. Collision and sank at night. Lost a lot more passengers then on Titanic. Also I'm not for sure on if she went down by the bow or not? Jason Tiller would know or Geoff Whitfield or any of our other ET alumni.
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Russell Smith
Member
Username: colonialmarine0431
Post Number: 345
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:56 am: |
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True. Had she not been overshadowed by the onset of WWI her legacy may have surpassed the Titanic's.
“Getting there is half the fun” - Cunard Line
41° 46' N, 50° 14' W
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Russell Smith
Member
Username: colonialmarine0431
Post Number: 346
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 5:06 am: |
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There was also the MV Explorer:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2928759.ece
And the MS Fram:
(Is this the one you wer thinking of Ellen?)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318969,00.html
“Getting there is half the fun” - Cunard Line
41° 46' N, 50° 14' W
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Ellen Grace Butland
Member
Username: elgrace
Post Number: 92
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 6:41 am: |
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No, this ship sank between the two world wars, I think. She was scandinavian and was to run between Scandinavia and Greenland during the northern summer. I may have her in one of my books, but can't remember which. She is sometimes referred to as 'the forgotten titanic.' |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 23781
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 6:49 am: |
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Lots of ships have run afoul of icebergs before and after Titanic. See http://researchers.imd.nrc.ca/~hillb/icedb/ice/bergs2_01e.html for a list. The Norweigian vessel that Ellen is referring to was the M/V Hans Hedtoft which struck a berg and sank with the loss of 95 lives on 30 January 1959.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 5:50 pm: |
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Hi Russ,
Yeah, The Empress was overshadowed that why they call her 'The Forgotten Empress'.
All,
The Portland Paddle Wheel Steamer Of 1898 might of sank at night. I'm not real sure. It was lost in Portland Gale away from land in 1898. I think it broke up but the bow section might of sank first. There were no survivors. I've heard it referred to as the Titanic Of New England. The Gale the ship was lost in was named after the Portland Ship even though a lot of other ships were lost and a lot of lives were lost on land and property damage was reported. Still the Portland Steamship disaster so horrified people of the day that the Gale was named for her. The Wreck Of The Paddle wheel Steamer Portland has been found. Whats left of it.
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Trevor Rommelley
Member
Username: trevr
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 7:22 pm: |
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Heres another thing to ponder: the Titanic forced a rethink of the lifeboat situation. If everyone had been saved there might not have been such a debate on the lack of such lifesaving provisions (another point to ponder!) If so, ships might have been going to sea for a while after the Titanic with not enough boats, but how much longer? I mentioned this to someone and I said that perhaps the sinking of the Lusitania, or the Empress of Ireland might have prompted the rethinking of "boats for all." But then he admitted that both ships sank so fast, the issue of boats wasn't really an issue.
So, maybe the point is: what ship sank with sufficient time to save everyone, but with great loss of life, regardless of whether help did arrive (or didn't) in time. |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 8:41 pm: |
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quote:So, maybe the point is: what ship sank with sufficient time to save everyone, but with great loss of life, regardless of whether help did arrive (or didn't) in time.
The Arctic is one. September 27, 1854 saw this wooden Steamship collide the the Vesta a French Ship and sink. It sank slow to get the people off but the crew and certain passengers stole all the lifeboats there were leaving the passengers to the fates. Not a woman or child was saved from the sinking.
Women and children last; the loss of the steamship Arctic.
by Alexander Crosby Brown
Is the book to read. I read it in High School. Alexander Crosby Brown had relatives on board the ship who perished including his Great Aunt Grace Brown who he dedicated the book to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Maralia/SS_Arctic
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Trevor Rommelley
Member
Username: trevr
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:44 pm: |
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Thanks, I didn't know that ... did any repurcsions become the crew?
Was there a disaster like the one I mentioned post-Titanic? I don't suppose in this regard War losses "count" as heavy casualties would be expected. I can't help but feel that losses due to lifeboat inadequacies (and not due to lack of time) would have resulted in another loss but significantly after the Titanic. |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 23813
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:23 am: |
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>>the Titanic forced a rethink of the lifeboat situation. If everyone had been saved there might not have been such a debate on the lack of such lifesaving provisions (another point to ponder!) <<
Not entirely accurate I'm afraid. The lifeboat deficiencies were well known and debated before the Titanic ever set sail, and there was space and weight set aside in the design of the Olympic class in anticipation of the new regulations which were expected to come down the pike. What Titanic did was speed things up a bit.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Trevor Rommelley
Member
Username: trevr
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:32 am: |
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But how long would it have taken for "boats for all" to become law? Building a ship for something is one thing, but doing it is another matter. I know Walter Lord says in The Night Lives On says that many ships of many nationalities did not have 100% boat coverage. So how many of these other shipping companies pro-actively outfitted their ships in anticipation of new laws? |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 23826
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 4:31 am: |
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>>But how long would it have taken for "boats for all" to become law?<<
Got news for ya, it still hasn't.
Count the boats and the bodies on any cruise ship and you'll be in for quite a shock. The shortfall is "Made up" for with inflatable rafts. Of course, if you don't have a spot in the boat, and the seas are freezing when you have to swim for it, you'll be in some very deep trouble.
>>So how many of these other shipping companies pro-actively outfitted their ships in anticipation of new laws?<<
Not many and the only ship out there with boats for all was the infamous Californian. There was quite the rush on the Atlantic run to cobble up boats and quite a bit of knee-jerk regulatory changes but even with all of that, "Boats For All" hasn't happened everywhere.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1176
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 5:44 am: |
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quote:Thanks, I didn't know that ... did any repercussions become the crew?
I think so. Plus the infamy of being a Arctic survivor and Crewmen after all those Women and Children were lost. I bet a lot of the crewmen beat a hasty retreat. Well the ones not in jail. The Arctic has an unsung hero of the crew of sorts like Titanic whose story stuck with me. I wish I had done a report on her in High School but there wasn't a lot of information about her. Stewardess Anna (surname unknown) was either a Slave of the Ward Line or an Emancipated Slave and stewardess, who was last seen working the pumps by passengers. I guess she knew that she would not be getting off in a boat and she had a basic idea of how the pumps worked so she worked tried to work them. Alexander Crosby Brown mentions her in WACL.
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Ernie Luck
Member
Username: lucky
Post Number: 542
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:36 am: |
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The Wilhelm Gustloff must rank as one of the worst sinkings involving civilians with about 10,500 lost, during WW2. See topic under this heading below. |
Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 3928
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:25 am: |
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"So how many of these other shipping companies pro-actively outfitted their ships in anticipation of new laws?"
Quite a few did, resulting in some ships being reduced to floating boatyards, with dozens of boats that could never have been lowered in a real emergency. Imperator was a classic example, with boats all over her poop.
In Britain, the Board of Trade indulged in a little quiet blackmail. Letters were sent to ship owners on these lines.
The Green Funnel Line has advised us that it now carries boats for all. We look forward to similar action by your line.
The technology of the time was not up to the job and all sorts of dodges were tried. Aquitania had boats mounted on tracks, so they could be pushed across the deck to the most favourable side for lowering. Many ships had two boats per pair of davits, a practice that continued until the 1960s. The situation today is still imperfect.
It's all in Titanic: Monument and Warning.
Dave Gittins
Titanic: Monument and Warning.
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html
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Ellen Grace Butland
Member
Username: elgrace
Post Number: 98
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 8:16 pm: |
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Thanks, it was the Hans Hedtoft. Just another of the many ships unknown today because of their very short life. And Michael's comment on modern cruise ships" lack of boats and reliance on rafts is all too true. I am sure there are no raft drills aboard these ships, possible not even a video shown on evacuation procedures. Lets hope the crews are well drilled (but I don't hold my breath on this one) |
Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4962
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:57 pm: |
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Hmmm...there's Canadian Pacific's Islander, which struck an iceberg and sank with proportionately heavy loss of life in 1901. Very Titanic-like.
Then, conversely, one has the San Juan which sank in less than three minutes and which had a BETTER survival rate than the Titanic. And the Columbia, which sank in 8 minutes, at night, with...again....better survival odds than the Titanic despite the loss of 88.
Still, it's the life you chose, I suppose. Good luck to you, come what may.
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 23841
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 3:42 am: |
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The overloading of boats had serious consequences in their own right, that consequence being topweight. You can only cram so many in the upperworks before stability begins to suffer. At least the Olympics were designed for it but for some, it was a killer. Anybody remember the Eastland?
This was the Great Lakes excursion steamer which rolled over right at the dock. See http://www.baillod.com/shipwreck/swayze/swayzedbdetail.php?HKEY=3279 for more.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Jim Kalafus
Member
Username: jak
Post Number: 4964
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:26 am: |
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>Anybody remember the Eastland?
Cant really blame the boats for that. THAT was a rather specious argument introduced in order to introduce the magic word TITANIC into the book's title.
The Eastland, as you will recall, had her first scary near-capsize, with 2500 people aboard, in 1904. Witnessed by thousands, the ship rolled exactly as she would do again in 1915, but while in motion and in deep enough water to have allowed for complete overturning had she gone the extra inch ~literally~ and reached the point of no return. She did the same thing during a Sherwin-Williams corporate picnic. There were similar incidents, seemingly each summer, clear thru 1915. Remember how her owners ran that newspaper ad, offering a huge sum of money to anyone who could PROVE she was unsafe?
That was an accident which was GOING to happen, extra boats or no extra boats. The problem seemed to occur each time she was overloaded. In July 1915, she was overloaded. EASTLAND: Accident Waiting To Happen; Victim of Lax Inspection Laws and Probably Chicago Graft, although accurate, lacks marquee appeal....
Still, it's the life you chose, I suppose. Good luck to you, come what may.
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George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 2:31 am: |
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I do! The 1915 version of the General Slocum
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 23865
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 3:36 am: |
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>>Cant really blame the boats for that.<<
Agreed. I would submit that it may have been an aggravating factor, but one which only served to speed things up. The Eastland had always been a tender ship, but that wouldn't have been much of an issue if the owners hadn't been in the habit of overloading the vessel in the first place.
>>Remember how her owners ran that newspaper ad, offering a huge sum of money to anyone who could PROVE she was unsafe?<<
Did they ever pay off on it? The de facto proof that the ship was unsafe was already lying at the bottom of the river. Even in Chicago, that had to count for something.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Adam Eickholt
Member
Username: tashmoo
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 6:20 am: |
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>> Did they ever pay off on it?
Hi Michael,
The Eastland was under new ownership at the time of her loss. It was the Eastland Navigation Co., which had operated the boat on Lake Erie between Cleveland and Cedar Point, that advertised the $5000 reward in 1910 to anyone who could prove the boat unseaworthy. When the Eastland rolled over in Chicago on July 24, 1915, she was owned by the St. Joseph-Chicago Steamship Co. which had bought the boat in June 1914.
After the loss, the directors of the St. Joseph-Chicago S.S. Co. denied having any knowledge of the boat's previous history of instability. Walter Steele, Secretary-Treasurer of the line, testified at the coroner's inquest that, "I didn't know much about the boat except that we got it at a bargain." |
George L. Lorton
Member
Username: retro_geo
Post Number: 1197
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 4:43 pm: |
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quote:"I didn't know much about the boat except that we got it at a bargain."
Now we know why. Seems "The Eastland Navigation Co." were very keen to get rid of that troublesome behemoth. The Bargain that was no bargain.
"And laugh- but smile no more."
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Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 23881
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 3:46 am: |
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>>After the loss, the directors of the St. Joseph-Chicago S.S. Co. denied having any knowledge of the boat's previous history of instability.<<
Oh I'll just bet they did! And it's highly probable that any such denials were 100% pure bovine excrement. Word gets around on the waterfront about things like this and if the new owners genuinely didn't know about it, they weren't paying attention.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon
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Alyson Jones
Member
Username: firefoxy
Post Number: 599
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 5:27 am: |
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>>just wanted to know if there has ever been a ship wreck like titanic (going down bow first at night etc)<<
There was an oil tanker named *the prestage* that was badly damage and sunk and at the time she was being filmed.I watched it sink ,made me think about the Titanic.The day after the sinking they relocated the ship and filmed her. It was amazing to see how a ship looks just after sinking,she still looked brand new.Titanic would have look the same just after her sinking,too bad there was no technolghy avalible at the time!
Anyways for a ship to become famous like Titanic, it can happend if the ship suffered the same fate as the Titanic.
Todays Ship would have to have this happend to her-
On maidan voyage.
Brand new ship.
Captain on his last voyage.
Well known up class famous people.
No lifeboat drill and no oganizing the passengers to there life boats.
Not enough life boats or life boats equitment braking down.
life boats only assible by A- Deck.
3rd class passengers finding it hard to reach lifeboats.
Radio and radar braking down hrs before the mishap.
Iceberg warnings ignored.
Radio only manned at day time.
If this happends to a ship today,Yes then you can called it Another Titanic mishap. |
Michael Cundiff
Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 850
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 6:11 pm: |
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In regards to the 2007 Thanksgiving night collision with ice, by the M.S. EXLORER, the magzine AARP featured an article entitled:
"Mayday in the Antarctic". What follows is a small paragraph from said article-
"That evening in his regular briefing, Captain Bengt Wiman reported that the ship was heading into heavy ice. After dinner the D'Angelos went to their cabin early. Lee, the British nurse, stayed up to watch the movie, while Kay played cards with couples from the Netherlands and England. "The ice kept getting tighter and tighter," Kay remembers. "At one point I said maybe we should be watching TITANIC."
END QUOTE-
Michael Cundiff
NV, USA |
