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Tammy Saphiloff
Member
Username: tammysm
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |       |
Ever since Kathy Bates as Margaret Brown uttered these lines...
Why're ships always bein' called "she"? Is it because men think half the women around have big sterns and should be weighed in tonnage?
(they all laugh)
Just another example of men settin' the rules their way.
in James Cameron's TITANIC, I too have often wondered that myself. I can also name other such examples...
For instance, how many of you know that Lassie is "really" a male Collie dog, playing a female role? Or that Michael Learned is an actress who was best known for playing "Olivia Walton" on The Waltons TV series, for which she played the mother of "John-Boy", played by Richard Thomas.
Still yet, another reason why I'm asking, is because our very own adorable Will Murdoch, when he was a teenager, served his apprenticeship aboard a sailing vessel that does bear a male name, called the Charles Cotesworth.
Can ships bearing male names be rightfully called he/hims...or, do they go the Michael Learned route, be being referred to as shes/hers? |
Shelley Dziedzic
Moderator
Username: shelley
Post Number: 2329
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 4:13 pm: | |
According to Navy lore, a ship is always a lady- because they cost so much to keep in paint and powder! I know the French always use the male article for ships Le Normandie, etc. although you would think if anyone would think of a ship as a lady, it would be those romantic French! Another source says since a ship is unpredictable and can be "hard to handle" ships MUST be female. In America and the UK, as far as I know, even male-named vessels are still called "she". Of course now we are all so politically correct even hurricanes off the East Coast must be named for men and women! |
David G. Brown
Member
Username: brown
Post Number: 1506
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 4:15 pm: | |
Tammy --
To sailors (of any gender) ships are feminine. This is the long-standing tradition and I suspect it will continue afloat for centuries to come. However, the concept of "feminine" should be visualised in a linguistic sense (like "masculine," "feminine" and "neuter" words in romance languages) and not as having to do with reproductive sexual organs which ships quite obviously lack.
Sailors away from home for extended periods of time tend to exhibit a warm attachment for the ships they serve. And, as any sailor knows, each ship has a distinct and individual personality that can prove frustrating to the crew despite their affection for the vessel. The analogy with married human couples is obvious. Men have never understood women (the reverse is true as well), so it follows that vessels be thought of as "she" by generations of male sailors.
Thus, a ship named for a male person is still feminine by sailor's reference. This situation is quite common here on the Great Lakes where most ships are named for male corporate executives. The men who serve those ships still refer to them as "she."
There was an attempt to use the masculine "he" when referring to "men o' war." These were the great wooden warships like Nelson's Victory. It was never accepted among the sailing fraternity and using "he" for a warship is now an anachronism.
During the age of sail it was common for sailors to say that warships were "she" because, like women, "they're bluff in the bow, round in the counter, and cost a fortune to keep in powder and paint."
There is little doubt that references to ships as "she" by the old time sailors reflected the paucity of women at sea. And, in that sense there is a sexual context to the reference. Today's politically correct publishing industry is trying to correct this alleged sexism by reversing thousands of years of tradition. Some of my publishers require that ship's be referred to in the neuter--as "it" and not as "she."
-- David G. Brown |
Tammy Saphiloff
Member
Username: tammysm
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 5:40 pm: | |
David-
Or, you can also use that other term--Women are from Venus, and men are from Mars, or is it vice-versa? If you don't mind me saying so, but I think that men are just as unpredictable as us women are.
Seeing as how Kathy Bates's above line from TITANIC has sparked quite the debate. I can't thank you both enough for your explanations, re: the gender of ships.
As far as I'm concerned, the publishing industry will never be able to change our minds about what genders we can call ships by, can they?
The names of hurricanes also came to my mind, too. Wasn't it because they ran completely out of female names, and started calling them by male names? |
Mark Baber
Moderator
Username: mab
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 8:12 pm: | |
A prior discussion of this subject appears here.
MAB
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OceanicSteamNavigationCo/
http://www.greatships.net/
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rob scott
Member
Username: robseagull
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 8:26 pm: | |
what? they name great lakes ships after corporate men? seems to my nose there's a foul odor up in those parts ;)
I say it's because you must look after 'her' and pamper 'her' and take care of 'her' ... if you want her doing the mommy thing and taking care of you far from land out in the big drink.
(besides the affection thing, so glad to see her when you need her)
and then there's 'her' majesty's ship... but that's... a different story.
 |
David G. Brown
Member
Username: brown
Post Number: 1507
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 8:33 pm: | |
Maybe we should all use the potically correct "heshe." Problem is, a ship is really a thing and so should be an "it." Now, if we add the two together....
-- David G. Brown |
Paul Rogers
Member
Username: progers
Post Number: 439
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 10:41 pm: | |
The following text is taken from Submarine! written by Commander Edward L. Beach, USN. His fascinating book tells the story of the US submarine fleet in WWII.
The embodiment and personification of this...is the Captain. His men and his ship reflect his will, and a properly organised crew operates with the unity of purpose of an ant colony. Whatever the state of the individual and of internal affairs, the composite exterior is smooth, unruffled; it acts under a single directive force - a single brain - the Captain's. It is in tacit recognition of this basic understanding that a sailor, in speaking of a ship other than his own, frequently will use the pronoun "he" instead of "she."
It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black. |
Ellen Grace Butland
Member
Username: elgrace
Post Number: 41
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 7:22 pm: | |
My grandad told me that to refer to a ship as IT is a grave insult, meaning the ship was either no good at all, or a wreck (therefore dead) "She" is the correct english, if some one says of a ship, what is HE doing, it is a direct reference to the captain (who was usually male) and his actions in commanding his ship. |
David G. Brown
Member
Username: brown
Post Number: 2197
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 11:37 pm: | |
Ellen-- there is no unanimity regarding pronouns for ships. Among sailors, it has been traditional to use "she." For a while it was fashionable to use the feminine pronoun for merchant vessels and the masculine, "he" for warships. And, the book Nazis of New York will now cut out any pronoun reference to a ship except for "it" on the grounds that using "she" is degrading to women. So, take your era, take your prejudices, and take your pick.
When discussing Rules of the Road it is not uncommon in the U.S. to use "she" for the vessel and "he" for the captain. This makes possible a sentence such as, "He wanted to go to port, but she went to starboard instead." This also makes perfect sense to anyone who is married.
On the Great Lakes, most cargo ships are named for the members of the boards of the owning company. So, you have ships like the S.S. Willis B. Boyer being called "she." People gave up worrying about the unintended consequences of this gender bending years ago.
Navy sailors have always said that ships are "she" because, like women, it takes so much money to keep them in powder and paint. (Gunpowder, of course.)
If this is confusing, try to figure out when a dinghy becomes a boat becomes a ship. Or when is a rope a line? And, why is the top of the mast not at the top of the mast? Don't even mention catharpins, especially in front of dog owners.
-- David G. Brown |
Dimitre Guenov
Member
Username: userdemos
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 4:12 am: | |
In regards to Shelley's post--
The French actually call ships female as well. It's actually "LA Normandie", "L'Atlantique" (as La is abbreviated L' with a word that follows beginning with a vowel), "La Paris", "L'Ile De France" and so forth. Most cities are also female, I believe. Although, someone should feel free to correct me there.
Just a minor point. |
Alyson Jones
Member
Username: firefoxy
Post Number: 588
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 1:46 am: | |
I have also wounder this alot, but this is what i think why.*She*= beauty and slimline,you can not call beauty and slimline a *He* does not work at all. When you look at a ship,the Ship looks like a *she* BEAUTY. Well i have seen ugly ships before, maybe those ships should be called *He's*.
And also *She* is a good marketing word to draw customers in,sounds much more inviting and plessure for the customers, while *He* sounds rough and butch and just scary! |
Michael H. Standart
Moderator
Username: mstandart
Post Number: 25011
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 3:24 am: | |
>>while *He* sounds rough and butch and just scary!<<
That may be why the Germans sometimes referred to the warships with the masculine pronoun. As far as I know, this is the custom with the Russians as well, and not just for their warships.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon |
Dave Gittins
Member
Username: gittins
Post Number: 3984
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 4:04 am: | |
Properly, in French ships are male. Hence De Gaulle's words on naming France.
"Vive le France! Vive la France!"
In German, ships are neuter (das Schiff), except when they are specifically named. Then they are feminine (die Passat). Sometimes they are male, especially warships or ships named after royalty (der Imperator).
Though some don't like the English practice, the use of the feminine was always intended to be complimentary to women. A fine ship has many of the qualities of a fine woman.
Dave Gittins
Titanic: Monument and Warning.
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html |
Alyson Jones
Member
Username: firefoxy
Post Number: 590
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 4:34 am: | |
I don't think Male names on ship don't matter. Ships with male names are still classed as *Shes*? Most Historians claim ships as *Shes*, I have never heard an Historian describe a ship *He*,apart from Hitler thinking Bismarck was to powerful to be classed as a *She*.Unless you're talking about the owner's of the ship,then that's a different story. |
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