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Message |
    
Michael F. Barratt
Member
Username: marriner
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 11:14 pm: | 
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The largest loss of shipping in a single incident was the scuttling of the German High Seas Fleet in Scapa Flow on 21st June 1919 - some 400,000 displacement tons. In all five battle cruisers, ten battleships, five cruisers, and thirty-two destroyers were at the bottom of the sea within five hours of the order being given. What is interesting is that the event was observed at close quarters by 400 school children on a sea trip on board the Admiralty tender "Flying Kestrel". It has been reported that this vessel was a White Star water/baggage tender from Liverpool and during this period White Star appear to have had two - Magnetic and Pontic. Does anyone know if "Flying Kestrel" was one of these two renamed by the Admiralty and if so, which one? |
Mark Baber
Moderator
Username: mab
Post Number: 1459
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 4:53 am: |
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There are brief histories of both tenders in Haws' Merchant Fleets, Oldham's The Ismay Line and Anderson's White Star, none of which make any reference to either Magnetic or Pontic being in Admiralty service during the war.
Do you mind my asking where "it has been reported" that this occurred? That might help me track something down.
MAB
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OceanicSteamNavigationCo/
http://www.greatships.net/
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Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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Hi Michael & Mark,
Does either of you know why WSL needed tenders at Liverpool? I would have thought that the ships simply moored at the Landing Stage or further up river and could be boarded along with luggage without the use of a tender.
Now, if I'd known you were going to post, Michael, I could have asked you when we were out dining together last week!
Geoff |
Michael F. Barratt
Member
Username: marriner
Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
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Hi Mark and Geoff,
To answer Geoff's first, I think that the tenders were used principally for embarking fresh water. Pontic could carry 11,000 gallons. I do agree with you, however, Geoff, that there doesn't seem to be a logical need for permanent tenders in the Mersey. Having said that if you watch the Online Video on the Mersey Ferries it does show one of the big "C" White Star liners (I cannot recall which one but think it was Cedric) anchored in mid river. One assume that at times the Mersey was so choked with traffic that even WSL vessels had to anchor mid stream. We shall certainly have to make a further discussion a good excuse for another meal together in Liverpool!
Mark, to answer your question the "report" is found on Page 171 of Dan Van der Vat's book "The Grand Scuttle". On this page he writes "As Reuter (the German Rear-Admiral in charge of the Interned Fleet) anxiously paced his quarterdeck waiting for the psychological moment [to sink the ships] the four hundred boys and girls from Stromness Higher Grade School (now the Stromness Academy)were waiting for their day's outing on board the "Flying Kestrel" (Captain Davies), the large tug-cum-tender on contract to the Admiralty from the White Star Line of Liverpool as a water-supply and general duties vessel for the internment." Earlier, on page 146 he writes "The same report said that the British system of distributing general supplies round (sic) the fleet was working well and the Royal Navy had managed to find a water-tender, something it had never needed to do before. This was the Flying Kestrel from Liverpool which took eight days to make a complete round of the interned ships"
I have surmised from this that the WSL tender was probably the Magnetic (most likely as it could carry water/baggage/general supplies/persons rather than Pontic which was essentially a water carrier/baggage carrier only). |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 465
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 7:26 pm: |
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The Mersey Docks & Harbour Board used to have a tender, the Egerton, to disembark the smaller passenger-carrying vessels when they were anchored in the stream awaiting high tide; they would go straight into dock without being consigned to the landing stage. The passengers and their baggage would be taken to the landing stage for customs and immigration inspection.
I don't recall Cunard or any other company having their own tender - but then I wasn't there in 1912.
Nowadays, when such as the QEII calls and anchors in the stream, one of the ferryboats serves as a tender.
Noel |
Geoff Whitfield
Member
Username: geoff
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 11-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 7:55 pm: |
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Thanks Michael & Noel.
QE11 was here a while ago and we were waiting for friends to disembark. She moored mid River and used a Mersey ferry as a tender. I thought maybe because of her sheer size, she couldn't gain access to the Landing Stage.
Thanks again!
Geoff |
Mark Baber
Moderator
Username: mab
Post Number: 1461
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 7:55 pm: |
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Hello, Gentlemen---
I'm not as familiar with port operations at Liverpool as I am in New York, but I've picked up bits and pieces of information consistent with what Michael suggested, that on occasion ships anchored at Mersey Bar or elsewhere and passengers had to be moved by tender. Magnetic came into service in 1889 at the same time as Teutonic, then the largest ship operating out of the Mersey, and this may have prompted a frequent need for a tender.
As far as which tender we're talking about here, I agree with Michael that, from the description given, this sounds more like Magnetic than Pontic. I'll keep my eyes open and if I come across anything more I'll advise.
P.S. Noel's message was posted while I was composing mine. My recollection is that there was indeed a Cunard tender at Liverpool, but I don't have my Cunard material available at the moment. I'll check tonight.
MAB
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OceanicSteamNavigationCo/
http://www.greatships.net/
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Mark Baber
Moderator
Username: mab
Post Number: 1462
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
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The tender I'm thinking of was called Skirmisher, which is said to have carried more passengers than any other Cunarder over her 50+ years of service at Liverpool.
More to follow.
MAB
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OceanicSteamNavigationCo/
http://www.greatships.net/
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Michael F. Barratt
Member
Username: marriner
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 10:42 pm: |
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Dear Geoff, Mark and Noel,
Thank you all for your valuable contributions. I feel sure we will get to bottom (pardon the pun) of this particular problem. It is also interesting that the WSL tender of 1894, Gallic, was originally built for Birkenhead Corporation on their Woodside-Liverpool service (later Rock Ferry-Liverpool) as the PS Birkenhead - becoming their last paddler. Acquired by WSL in 1907 she was stationed at Cherbourg until replaced by the more famous Normadic and Traffic, returning to the Mersey as a WSL baggage tender. She doesn't fit the Flying Kestrel's description however, as she was broken up at Garston Dock in 1913. |
Noel F.Jones
Member
Username: ver1tas
Post Number: 466
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 3:00 am: |
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Cunard had two buoys in The Sloyne known as Cunard North and Cunard South. This was in the days of Lusitana/Mauretania.
Stage length was expensive. Their vessels would lie off at the buoys between the half-tide (Sandon Basin for Huskisson) and their embarkation slots. I would surmise therefore that Cunard must have had a tender for crew, stores and administration while at the buoys. They may also have bunkered at the buoys which would have been very labour-intensive.
I remember being at the buoys in the Sylvania in the mid-1960s but whether the mooring was still appropriated to Cunard or was a Dock Board facility I know not. Certainly we had no appropriated tender then.
Noel |
