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Pictures of the Titanics Dead

This discussion on "Pictures of the Titanics Dead" is in the Halifax recovery operation burials etc section; Even though this is definitely a morbid topic, I am interested in knowing what ever ...

      
   
  1. #1
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    Even though this is definitely a morbid topic, I am interested in knowing what ever happened to the photographs taken of the bodies recovered from the Titanic site. I have read in various places that there was a photograph taken of each individual victim to aid in the identification process. Are these photos still in the Halifax archives, have they ever been published. If one ever gets a chance to purchase or read the book, Titanic: 31 Norweigan Destines, there is a photograph of Sigurd Moen's body laying in a wooden casket. To date, this is the only close-up picture I have seen of the Titanic dead. I by no means want to give off the impression, that I am some sort of ghoul who possesses a fetish for dead people, but I am passionate about the Titanic story and am eager to learn all I can about the ship and those that sailed on her. I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

    Jason

  2. #2
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    There are good photographs of two Titanic victims in “Titanic: Triumph & Tragedy”. If I'm right, one of them is a bath attendant and the other is a steward. Sorry that I cannot remember the page on which they appear.

    In response to your question, I believe there is quite a big chance that all these pictures are still in the possession of the Halifax national archives. Hope I helped,

    Charles Provost

  3. #3
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    The picture of the corpse of Sigurd Moen shows up in a number of books ("Titanic, 31 Norwegian Destinies", for one) as does an unidentified victim being embalmed on the deck of the Mackay Bennett.

  4. #4
    Rob Jewel
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    I am looking for information on a "lookout". He
    would be 18-25 or so, at the time of the sinking.
    Hw was a crew member of the RMS TITANIC, in 1912.
    He is ARCHIBALD JEWEL/JEWELL. He was on the DAY
    crew shift, with RICHARD SYMONS. I would like to
    know more about him. Or even find a photograph of him. I do not know if he lived or not. I also do not know if he even was aboard, but the
    records I've seen say he was...

    Many thanks to all in advance...

  5. #5
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    Dear Rob,
    Archie Jewell was born December 4, 1888 in Bude, North Cornwall, England and married Elizabeth (Bessie) Heard (1889-1962) on August 24, 1915. He and his wife had a son, Raymond, who died as a teenager. Archie was killed on April 17, 1917 when his ship, the DONEGAL, was torpedoed in the English Channel. There is a very in-depth biographical article in the Atlantic Daily Bulletin, Number 4, 1999, page 21 which will give you much more information resulting from the excellent research of Steve Coombs. A photo of Archie appears on page 232 of the book TITANIC VOICES by Donald Hyslop. You can order a copy of the above referenced Atlantic Daily Bulletin from the British Titanic Society, P.O. Box 401, Hope Carr Way, Leigh, Lancs., England, WN7 3WW.

    I hope this helps.

    Phillip Gowan

  6. #6
    TMONERA
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    Can somebody please tell me if there were any transexuals on board the titanic,and if there were , were they counted as women when the lifeboats were being loaded so therefore were they granted access??
    TMonera

  7. #7
    Jen K.
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    This is response to TMONERA question about transexuals aboard Titanic. That is a thoughtless and offending to ask on such a matter as this. That is the last thing I would ever ask a message board. Even if there were do you really think it would be a topic of discussion in Titanic's history books!

  8. #8
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    I agree with you Jen!!

    I second that in a hearbeat! How could anybody even think of asking that kind of a question?!

    Jason D. Tiller
    Jason D. Tiller
    "To be happy is to be contented in your own mind"...Harold Godfrey Lowe
    43° 44' 01" N, 79° 24' 16"W
    Author of an upcoming biography on Arthur G. Peuchen

  9. #9
    TMonera
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    OOOOHHHH touchy Jen honey in case you have not noticed this is a discussion board dear so get over it
    Thelma

  10. #10
    Mimi
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    You tell her Thelma honey , In answer to your question that is debatable there could of been but I just can't help you there ,sorry darling
    Mimi

  11. #11
    TMonera
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    Isn't anyone going to answer my question?????
    Thelma

  12. #12
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    Thelma, in that day and age, "preferences" of that sort or any other which were considered perverted were very carefully hidden...and for good reason. What would get you laughed at now at best and possibly scorned at worst now, at that time would land the offender in prison or a mental institution.

    In any event, some have to be wondering what's the point of the question in the first place?

    Cordially
    Michael H. Standart

  13. #13
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    I know our discussions do meander from time to time, but it is helpful if people can remember to start a new discussion when they want to raise a new topic.

    This one has gone from "Pictures of the Titanics Dead" to "information on a "lookout"" to "transexuals on the Titanic"!! We're only one step away from Hershey bars.
    Philip Hind

  14. #14
    Bill DeSena
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    Where their pictures of dead transexuals and lookouts carrying Hershey bars? Now that's an unresearched topic for a book!

    Just kidding folks, yes, as Philip says start a new disussion when you meander too far and this one has really gone in strange directions, wow!

    Regards
    Bill

  15. #15
    Daniel Rosenshine
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    As for pictures of the dead, I too had read once that there was a photographer, who took pictures only of those bodies that were embalmed and brought back to Halifax. Those burried at sea were not photographed.

    There was once an extensive archive of the bodies photographed. Many were of unidentified recognisable bodies, in hope that someone will identyfy the person. As the body could not be kept till someone claimed it, many were buried. The photos would still allow identification of the buried person, had one come to claim and identify his/her relative.

    I personally had once posed this question (not on this messageboard, privatelly) to see if there was still a photo of Col. Astor, to see if there was archival proof that his body was indeed crushed.

    The photos were once (when I don't know) in the Halifax archive but there are no photos there now. The only surviving photos are in Charles Haas' collection. He however only has a few, 30 if I'm not over exaggerating it.

    Hope this helps.

    Daniel.

  16. #16
    TMonera
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    For any one thats intrested ,which is all of you I took Phillips advice and tried to start a new topic titled "Trannie On Board ?" but its since been wiped so there you are .I suppose I will have to give up trying to get an answer as no one seems to have the knowledge or the answer apart from Mimi dear who at least tried so thank you for trying Mimi and also I have an original photograph of Mrs Robert Clifford Cornell but because of peoples behaviour towards me I will not be sharing it.
    Thelma

  17. #17
    Tmonera
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    Sorry how stupid of me it has not been wiped just changed from its original position thanks
    Tmonera

  18. #18
    Sam
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    So you honestly epect us to believe what YOU say??
    I don't think so
    SAM

  19. #19
    TMonera
    Guest
    OH go to hell

  20. #20
    Elaine Barnes
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    About the pictures, is it possible, when the bodies of the first class passengers were given to the families, they gave them the photos also?
    Elaine

  21. #21
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    Whoa! SAM, TMonera, take it easy! All the hard feelings getcha nowhere and raise the blood pressure for no good perpose.

    TMonera, I don't think there IS an answer to your question. Even if people of such orientation or any other such considered to be perverse were about on the ship, they would have nothing to gain by advertising the fact and a whole lot to lose. Remember what I said about prisons and mental institutions? That's where such people ended up if they were exposed. Those are the cold hard facts. 1912 was a VERY different era.

    Cordially,
    Michael H. Standart

  22. #22
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    Daniel wrote:

    >> The only surviving photos are in Charles Haas' collection. He however only has a few, 30 if I'm not over exaggerating it.

    There are others in private collections.

    Philip
    Philip Hind

  23. #23
    Sheila Pearce
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    Does anyone know if there are any photos of the
    dead in the archives at Halifax? My great uncle
    James Henry Chapman is buried there,Sheila Pearce.

  24. #24
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    It is interesting that now with DNA screening perhaps the victims (though unrecognizible) would possibly be able to be identified using technology if they were lost today and the bodies kept.

    Philip Hind is on my list for sainthood (no matter what his religious background) next go round for his patience with this thread...I agreew with Mike Standart on all counts for repvious questions and agree with Phil about keeping our focus.

    But when I die, I will haunt anyone who keeps an 8'x10' glossy of me when I am dead. Maureen.

  25. #25
    Jan C. Nielsen
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    The Nova Scotia Archives and Records Management, at 6016 University Avenue in Halifax, Nova Scotia, holds detailed original documentation of Titanic's victims, including the photographs, business cards, letters and correspondence. It wasn't exactly clear from the description I have of them whether the Archives have the photos of the dead bodies. If you really want to pursue this, give them a telephone call. Speaking of "morbid," the table where John Jacob Astor was embalmed in purportedly on display at another location in Halifax.

  26. #26
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    Hi everyone,

    On the rather morbid topic of bodies, I am currently trying (in vain) to put a name to some of the unidentified bodies that were recovered.
    I'm sure that #39 was that of Lucien P. Smith, taking into account his age and attire (evening dress-he had not retired for the evening and dissuaded his wife from putting valuables in their pockets-hence lack of identification). If anyone else has any ideas about the others or disagreements over #39 please let me know
    Ben

  27. #27
    Daniel Rosenshine
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    Ben,

    It's interesting, but I don't think it’s him. As it has been mentioned somewhere previously, considerable effort was put into identifying first class passengers, especially those that looked first class (i.e. attire or personal effects).

    Although the families of the poor often couldn't, the families of the rich either went themselves or sent others (who knew the victims) to identify them. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the family and friends of L. P. Smith did go to try and identify a body.

    Another thing, #39's hair color is 'dark.' As far as I know, the picture in J. B. Geller's book (the same picture was in the New York Times) shows Lucien with light colored hair, either brown or light brown.

    Warm Regards,

    Daniel.

  28. #28
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    Dear Daniel,
    Thanks a lot for your info on #39. I don't know about you, but I'm still rather tantalized by the mystery of #39. It seems that even if the family did go to Halifax, they would have left disappointed as #39 was buried at sea. Other plausible alternatives could be Walter Miller Clark, Joseph Loring, Edgar Meyer, Daniel Marvin and Vivian Payne (in order of likelihood-most likely first).Do you agree? I don't think 2nd class passengers were obliged to wear tuxedo.
    It would be greatly appreciated if you could tell me how I could get hold of pictures of passengers whose photos do not appear in the encyclopedia titanica biographies e.g L.P.Smith in New York Times etc.
    Many Thanks again for the info.
    Ben

    P.S. Sorry if loads of people have asked you this, but are you any relation to George Rosenshine?

  29. #29
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    Ben and Daniel:
    Regarding victim # 39 being Walter Miller Clark:

    No. 39 - Male, estimated age 25. -- hair, dark.
    Clothing: Evening dress trousers; black double breasted overcoat; brown jacket and vest; no boots.
    Effects - Silver watch; sovereign purse containing one sovereign, silver ring, coins for 4s. 3d., and keys.
    No Marks on clothing or papers.

    From pictures I've seen of Walter Miller Clark, Age 27, it's hard to tell what color his hair was, but it appears to be light on top and slightly receeding.

    He had been up late playing cards with Howard Case and three gamblers, so he would have had his shoes on and some identification and more money on his person. Hopefully my buddy George Brayton-Bradley-Brereton wasn't one of those gambling with him, but it appears likely.

    According to Don Lynch (Commutator v. 15, #4, 1991-2), Virginia Clark came up to the Smoking Room looking for her husband 20 minutes after Titanic hit the iceberg. Clark finally left his card game and he and Virginia went down to their room. "Walter changed from his evening clothes into heavy underwear and an ordinary suit. Virginia dressed warmly as well, and then, picking up some valuables, heavy overcoats, their lifejackets and Virginia's furs, they left their stateroom."

    Later, when they were back on deck "Walter asked Virginia if she had her purse, and when she replied that she didn't he ran down to his stateroom to get one for her. When he returned he was wearing his lifejacket. He then handed her some money, saying "We may be seperated and you might need this.""

    It's possible Clark was bilked out of all his money, or gave it all to Virginia, or that he forget to switch his wallet when he changed, but it doesn't seem likely since he made a special trip to get his wife's purse. It's also possible that his shoes came off, but most recovered bodies still had the shoes on. Also, Victim #39 seemed to have dressier pants than Clark's.

    IMHO, #39 wasn't Walter Miller Clark.

    Mike Herbold

  30. #30
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    Mike,

    I can't thank you enough for your fascinating info on the Clarks. I used to consider myself a bit of an authority on the 1st class passengers but nothing like that. Walter seems an interesting character. I have been trying for ages to find out more about him and Virginia.
    Do you know who they were acquainted with on board?

    Thanks to you and Daniel I am narrowing down my search for #39. I have crossed Smith and Clark off the list. I now think Loring could be our man.

    I wouldn't want to steal any research you are doing, but I would be interested to know how I could get hold of a copy of the book containing the info on Clark. It would be great also to see a photo of him.
    Many thanks again to you and Daniel. Please don't hesitate to suggest other alternatives to the illusive #39.
    Ben

  31. #31
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    Ben:
    Don Lynch's two-part article on the Clark Family was published in the Titanic Historical Society quarterly journal "The Titanic Commutator" in early 1992. Your question about the identity of body #39 is interesting. You could try the same puzzle on many of the unidentified. Daniel does that kind of exercise often, and I know Michael Poirier does, too. You might not find the answer, but you sure learn a lot in the meantime.
    Drop me a note offline.
    Mike Herbold
    mikeherbold@hotmail.com

    P.S.: I'm personally interested in the Clarks because they lived here in southern California. As a matter of fact, I live just a few miles from the church that is foot-noted in Clark's biography here on ET. The name of the street that starts in Long Beach and goes north for about nearly 20 miles and passes within a block of that church is Clark Avenue -- named after the Clark family (but not necessarily Walter).

  32. #32
    George Behe
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    Ben Holme wrote:

    > Walter seems an interesting character. I have >been trying for ages to
    >find out more about him and Virginia.
    >Do you know who they were acquainted with on >board?

    Hi, Ben!

    Mrs. Clark was acquainted with Edith Rosenbaum; she was chatting with Edith when Walter approached her and received her 'permission' to go up to the smoking room to play cards.

    Some things never change. :-)

    All my best,

    George

  33. #33
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    I doubt it was Joe Loring as he and George Rheims stripped down to their underwear before jumping.
    Perhaps it could be someone lesser known such as Ben Foreman. Or perhaps Milton Long did not get sucked under as feared. We'll never know as the body was buried at sea.

  34. #34
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    Hi George
    Many thanks for the info on Clark/Rosenbaum. Evidently, gambling was frowned upon.
    I wonder how successful he was!
    It seems Miss Rosenbaum was a bit of a socialite.
    Warm Regards
    Ben

  35. #35
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
    Guest
    Michael,
    Info on Loring appreciated. I heard from the affidavit of Olaus Ableseth that there was a man on collapsible A with only underwear on. He had "a wife and child". I presume this refers to Rheims, but did Loring ever make it to the boat?
    Benjamin L. Foreman is a very good suggestion.
    It must be him, Payne or Marvin. Edgar Meyer is unlikely as he was in bed at the time of the collision. It couldn't be Milton Long as his body was recovered, #126.
    I'm slowly getting to the bottom of this one!
    Ben

  36. #36
    Daniel Rosenshine
    Guest
    Hi,

    I was under the impression, that anyone who even in the slightest resembled anyone (either by dress or effects) first class, their body was not buried at sea but regardless of deformity or decomposure was brought to Halifax.

    If #39 was a first class passenger, this must have been some unlucky unrecognizable one. Other than that, it is possible that it was a second-class passenger. Second class on Titanic was first class on many other ships thus evening dress would have been required. I'm sure both ladies and men in second class did dress reasonably well for dinner, however I doubt as affluently as first class.

    Ok, scratch all that, wasn't Molson seen taking his shoes off and jumping overboard?!

    Daniel.

  37. #37
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    I don't know where my head was when I typed Long. I had meant to type Giglio. But as always my concentration was elsewhere.

  38. #38
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    Hi Daniel!
    I agree that #39 must have had some pretty grotesque deformations to be buried at sea. I'm still convinced he was first class, and thanks again to all those who have helped me so far with this little mystery! I am intrigued to know where that source about Molson removing his shoes came from originally. He and Ramon Artagaveytia must have put into practice experiences from other sinkings. They say the same thing about Percival and Richard White (removing shoes etc). But when young Richard's body was recovered, guess what he was wearing...white shoes!
    Very best regards
    Ben
    Oh, and Michael..easily done, but wasn't Giglio last seen without a lifejacket next to Ben Guggenheim?

  39. #39
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    Ben:
    Alan Hustak talks about Molson taking his shoes off in his book, and also relates how he had survived two previous shipwrecks by swimming away.

  40. #40
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    Thanks Mike!
    I have just ordered the book about the Canadian passengers (I think it's by Hustak). Does Hustak give any evidence as to who was an eye-witness to this?
    Ben

  41. #41
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    Ben:
    You will enjoy Alan Hustak's book. In re-reading his account of Molson taking his shoes off, I notice he doesn't say who witnessed it. The wording is similar to the wording here on ET, but more detailed.

    I glanced through a number of the classics (ANTR, Maiden Voyage, Davie's book, all the Eaton & Haas', TNLO, and Illustrated History), and even some of the knock-offs, but I haven't seen any other reference yet to Molson's removing his shoes. I'm glancing through various testimonies now to see what the source might be.

    Alan, if you're out there, let us know.

  42. #42
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    Ben:
    Just re-read one of your earlier postings on this thread. That was very astute of you to notice that Richard White was supposedly observed taking his shoes off, but yet his body was recovered with white shoes on.

  43. #43
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    Re: Pictures of Titanic's dead...
    Hello, my name is Steve Santini and I am the author of a new book titled : "Titanic: Touchstones of a Tragedy". On page # 59 in the book there are two pictures of two bodies of Titanic victims which were recovered by the Mackay Bennett. These bodies appear as they were laid out for identification in the Halifax Mayflower Curling Rink. The bodies in question are numbers 92 and 278. Notations on the back of the pictures in pencil speculate that at least one of these men was "possibly a fireman". These pictures were optained from a private source who still retains two other Titanic victim pictures. This leads me to believe there may have been, at one time, a sort of "scrapbook" which held the photographs of numerous unidentified victims. This book would have been used to assist in possible future identification of the then unknown deceased. I just thought I would mention this bit of info to any interested parties. Kind regards, Steve Santini

  44. #44
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    Hi Steve, I already have your book on order. Amazon seems to be taking their own sweet time getting it to me though. (Would this be due to recent publication?)

    In any event, I'm looking forward to reading it.

    Cordially,
    Michael H. Standart

  45. #45
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    Hi Mike,
    "Titanic, The Canadian Story" came through the post a couple of hours ago!! I have had a skim through and it looks fantastic. Large print, plenty of photos and insights into their personalities.
    Davie's book isn't too detailed about the Canadians. However, it's great if your interested in the Thayers (which I am).
    have you read "A journey through time" by Eaton and Haas. It makes a pretty good read (despite mentioning that funnel #1 fell around the same time collapsible D was lowered.
    I hope Hustak's book will make a great weekend read!
    Best Regards
    Ben

  46. #46
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    I wrote to Alan Hustak to ask him for the reference for Molson taking his shoes off. He says that he thinks it was Major Peuchen, but he's going to have a look and find the newspaper article.

    Eric Sauder

  47. #47
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    Hi Ben, I'm afraid I don't have any of the books you mentioned. My interests have been more on the technical side. It's a gap I'll have to rectify in the coming year.

    Cordially,
    Michael H. Standart

  48. #48
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    Thanks Eric:
    I thought of Peuchen also, but he was already off the ship. Will be interested in what Alan says.

  49. #49
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    Thanks Eric,
    If Penchen saw this, it must mean that Molson jumped off the ship very early i.e before most of the boats were lowered as Peuchen left in boat #6.
    Ben

  50. #50
    Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme
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    I have just finished readin"Titanic-the Canadian story". It was a fascinating read! I wonder if the second class boy who was deterred from boat #14 by Lowe was George Sweet age 14.
    It also describes how most of them met their deaths (Molson, Ross etc) which is poignant

  51. #51
    Daniel Rosenshine
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    I had also contacted Allen and he said it was Peuchen, however as Mike Herbold points out he was already off the ship. Either "the last that was seen of Molson" refers to a time before Peuchen left the ship or Peuchen heard that someone saw Molson and he happened to be taking his shoes off.

    Daniel.

  52. #52
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    So, I understand that none exactly know where keep more then 100 post-mortem photos? May be they located in Nova - Scotia Archives, White Star Line Archives or Private Collections...

 

 

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