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Men who were offered but turned down a lifeboat place

This discussion on "Men who were offered but turned down a lifeboat place" is in the Lost and Saved section; I've read many stories of Women who where offered lifeboat spaces but refused - either ...

      
   
  1. #1
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    I've read many stories of Women who where offered lifeboat spaces but refused - either to get in a later boat - or indeed stay on the ship and perish, but are there any accounts of MEN who where actually offered a place but turned it down, either because they did'nt believe the ship was sinking or because they did'nt want to go before the other men etc - We all know about the famous account of Mr Srauss Being offered a place in Boat 8 - but turning it down - any others?

  2. #2
    Doni McLerran
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    Ellen Mary Mockler remembered a sailor twice begging Father Byles to take a seat, and that he refused. There are similar reports about Father Peruschitz. How accurate these reports were, I can't say, but it is probably safe to assume that if they were offered a seat on a lifeboat, they would have thought it their duty to God and man to stay aboard the ship instead.

  3. #3
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    Lightoller mentioned a couple of crew members who turned down the chance to get away in a boat - Sam Hemming and himself.

    Frank Goldsmith recalled his last sighting of Alfred Rush, who was just turned 16:

    And so then Mother and I were permitted through this gateway and Mother looked round quickly for Alfred, and he was standing back there where Dad and Mr Theobald were and the officer had his hand on his arm trying to jerk him through the gateway. And what did young Alfie say? "No, I'm staying here with the men". And that's the way it was in those days, fellows, when you became sixteen you didn't want to be classed as a kid.
    .

  4. #4
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    Also, Messrs Case, Davidson, Roebling, Hays, and Warren are often credited with passing up opportunities to board boats. I THINK Captain Crosby and Mr Ostby were separated from their female relatives and so it isn't known if they were in the vicinity of the starboard boats.

  5. #5
    Doni McLerran
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    Could you count Officer Moody, since he gave up his spot and let Officer Lowe take it instead? (Do I have that story right?)

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    Yes, Officer Moody does indeed count. Very brave soul.

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    Must have missed this one earlier.

    Unfortunately we don't really know why Moody didn't get into "some other boat". There's a suggestion that Lowe even told him to do so - Scarrott recalled him speaking to another officer on deck and saying "All right, you go in that boat and I will go in this." "That boat" was Boat 16.

    Moody may have intended to do so, but might have been instructed by a senior officer to assist on the starboard side. He might have been reluctant to leave without orders from an officer more senior than Lowe. He may have made a very conscious decision not to get in a boat in fulfillment of what he saw as his duty. There might have been an intention to send him away in command of Collapsible A. Or he may not have thought too much about it at all, being so focused on getting boats away.

    But yes - he could have responded in the affirmative to Lowe's question. He had at least one chance we know of to save his own life - and he decided not to take it, instead remaining to help save the lives of others.

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    One wants to believe that he was brave and dutiful, which he probably was indeed.

    But he was also a very young man, and such people tend to think they are indestructible. Which, of course, is one reason why we send young people to war. Older people have very good reasons not to do any such thing - wives and children depending on them, lack of natural youthful fitness, and - most tellingly - an understanding that they are not indestructible.

    As Inger says, Moody probably just made a series of brave decisions. Maybe also feeling invulnerable due to his youth - and got it wrong.

  9. #9
    George L. Lorton
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    Yes young people do tend to think that they will live forever though I think also that Moody was just too busy with loading the boats and trying to get Collapsible A free. Too Caught up in the moment. I think that something happened and it was sudden. Which tends to happen to young People. He was only 24 years old.

  10. #10
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    There must be personality differences, of course. I'm trying to imagine my eldest (nearly Moody's age) believing he's indestructible. Although I think he probably does feel that way, I can't quite imagine him having the same sort of confidence as my youngest (22), who would have been hurling children into boats, leaping about, and thinking to himself that he'd manage somehow. Sea can't be that cold, fit, good swimmer, stuff to do etc. etc. They might both have done the job, but I think the elder would have had far more misgivings.

    Mind you, the younger one told me yesterday that he has given up bungee-jumping after an experience at the weekend when he thought his eyes were falling out of their sockets. I've spent years telling him not to do this as we have a history of retinal detachment in the family - to no avail, of course. So, he's got away with it again. He's decided on his own not to do it again, and hasn't gone blind, lucky lad. And he's reluctantly decided that the extreme sports, which resulted in broken bones and torn ligaments, should be abandoned in favour of golf, parachuting, and diving. The latter, of course, requiring repaired teeth. Which brings me back to Moody, aged 24. I'm sure I remember Inger telling us he had simply terrible teeth problems, not that would have had any bearing on the night.

  11. #11
    George L. Lorton
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    I'm sure I remember Inger telling us he had simply terrible teeth problems, not that would have had any bearing on the night.
    I don't know Monica. It could of made him concentrate more on his job and made him more work oriented. Myself when I was 23 and living in Laramie, Wyoming I had bronchitis which went into walking pneumonia which just about ruined my teeth. I remember being really keen to work to afford the Dentist and to take my mind off the pain. Nothing was worse then being stuck at home doing nothing with aching teeth.

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    I do think his youth could have been a factor, Monica - the fact he was a strong swimmer and water confident might have been lurking somewhere in the back of his head. If he thought that far ahead, he might have hoped that, if worst came to worst and he wound up in the water, he could make it to a boat or wreckage. As it was, I think George is probably right - I think he was killed in the turbulent, debris laden waters when the forward end of the boat deck plunged under. We can't be confident that he, like Gracie and Lightoller in a similar position, had a lifejacket.

    He had faced perilous situations before in his career - I've written about his first crossing to NY in an ET article, and one of his ships was once given for lost after the screw shank on the steamer broke and they drifted without power before they were finally able to make land and get word back to the shipping office that they were still alive. He wrote laconically of one extremely bad passage through the Magellan Straits in vessel laden with explosive material that it was a "good job" his will was made out.

    His laconic voice may in part have been to either impress or play down the danger for those he was writing to, but the fact that the master of the ship took an early opportunity to promote him to acting Chief Mate and left him in complete charge of the vessel for days at a time in port to deal with both crew and owners indicates that Moody had shown some impressive qualities.

    When he last mentioned the teeth he was intending to get them all seen to when he when he could find a decent dentist - hopefully he did so! He doesn't mention them in his last few letters. What he was, however, was exhausted, even before sailing. He wrote of only getting four hours broken sleep between Tuesday and Thursday of the week they arrived in Southampton. Given that he had been on a four-on four-off +dog watches schedule since leaving port, and he was almost at the end of his watch when the collision occured, I wonder just how physically strong he was when he hit the water. Adrenaline would have charged him through those final couple of hours, but there was physical work involved on a cold night - it must have sapped him.

    Hmmm...perhaps I should give up the bungy jumping, given that my father is blind in one eye due to a detached retina! Most I felt was a bit of pressure around the ankles where they were bound, but there wasn't even any bruising. I joined with a couple of blokes in our circle who have jumped to give my brother a razzing and challenge him to join the club. He didn't bite - told us bluntly that he liked his retinas attached, thank you very much, and he was confident enough in his masculinity not to feel the need to jump of a bridge to prove it.

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    >>I wonder just how physically strong he was when he hit the water. <<

    Perhaps not very, and the cold would have robbed him of whatever he had left fairly quickly. Watch schedules at sea can be brutal, even today, and in port doesn't always offer any relief. With all that had to be accomplished to get ready for sea, he may well have had more sleep at sea then when tied to the pier.

  14. #14
    George L. Lorton
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    When he last mentioned the teeth he was intending to get them all seen to when he when he could find a decent dentist - hopefully he did so!
    I hear poor Moody on that. Luckily my sister's Dentist felt pity for me and made out a payment plan so I was able to save my teeth. I had five fillings put in at one appointment. I felt like a character out of Stephen King's Tommyknockers who swore she was able to pick up radio waves.

    Hopefully fillings were in general use or Moody would of had to have any bad teeth pulled. Although Moody was young so they couldn't of been that bad I hope.

    I too, Inger and Michael wonder how strong Moody was when he hit the water and the adrenaline was gone.

    Inger, did any of the people in Collapsible A mention seeing Moody in the boat after the Titanic went down. I don't think he'd made it that far but I wonder what his movements and if anybody recalled seeing him. Although the passengers wouldn't have known his name they would have recognized an Officer.


    He didn't bite - told us bluntly that he liked his retinas attached, thank you very much, and he was confident enough in his masculinity not to feel the need to jump of a bridge to prove it.
    Clever fella!

  15. #15
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    His biggest dental problems were back in 1908, judging from his correspondence - back when he was largely working the South American run. He refers to "lots" of them "rotting", and needing to get them stopped but suspecting he wouldn't have time to do it locally. He also opined that four were "quite gone" - which suggests he might have needed to have at least those ones pulled.

    Ouch.

    I always think of things like this when folks start thinking about the good ol' days, and why they'd like to live in the Edwardian age!

    He might have had a chance to catch up on some sleep, Mike, but not much - as you know, juniors were often called up even when off watch to oversee little tasks like accompanying crew to the hold to fetch those bits of luggage marked "not wanted on voyage" that were wanted after all. When you're getting less than 4 hours sleep at a stretch, it's no wonder that when they slept, they "died". Although Moody had been on the Atlantic run since late the previous year, so was probably as adapted as possible to the broken sleep.

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    It seems the major thing any movie on Titanic or many other a subject be it a western, a King Arthur epic or such always seems to flub is the world of dental work. It can be a gross subject in our times, but as well as some of these type of movies in our time have done to bring us back to those times, they almost always show the actors with clean, straight, teeth; which wouldn't be true for most during such a period. I've often noticed that William Murdoch's famous Olympic bridge shot picture seems to show him grinning with some era teeth behind the smile. Not how I think we think of such folks by today's standards. I guess it explains why most of the pictures of the Titanic officers showed broad grins, not full smiles. It does seem those who got some sleep the night Titanic sunk such as Col. Gracie or Harold Bride did, as opposed to Jack Phillips and Officer Moody, faired better. Having recently bought a house and doing day long renovations, on little sleep and lots of determination-- finishing wiped out, I think of those officers who toiled so hard mentally and physically; I really think such mixed with little sleep could do anybody in very quick I'm afraid. Try it sometime, sleep a little, work a ton and when you are ready to finally rest (do so safely of course) think that as you get to go to a nice warm bed, the officers and the like on Titanic had strong currents, falling objects and lethal water to face; sadly quite a grim prospect no matter how old one is.

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    I think I remember that the Monty Python film Camelot took some delight in showing ghastly teeth in all their disrepair - but only the character actors, of course! Can't see Angelina or Brad consenting to some dental accuracy in a period movie. Or indeed, even a mature actress playing the aging Queen Elizabeth I who was, apparently, by the age of 50 an extraordinary sight with no hair of her own to speak of, bone white face, hardly any teeth, and who had the habit of loosening her stays (one does sympathise) with the result that her bosom was on display to all and sundry, much to the distress of a French diplomat who recorded this. Not even Cate Blanchett would be game enough to appear like this, and she doesn't usually step away from the difficult.

  18. #18
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    Good point Monica,

    There are exceptions to my previous post. Some movies do get the teeth thing correct. I agree about how few would like to wear some mock up of how things really where, but likely audiences today may just not want to see things exactly as they were as well. This has become a moving thread, to really put yourself in the place of the officers or other personal on Titanic that night and try to think of factors such as, stamina, stress, their bravado, the water, the craze of everything that was going on near the bridge at the time of the final plunge; it's pretty somber thought. On a side note, maybe if Titanic's Chief Baker's story is true, that he rode the stern of Titanic right down to the water, he would therefore might be man enough to go bungy jumping with Inger!! (In jest of course!)

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    Concerning retinal detachment, I've been there and done that. In my case, it was probably one of those things that go with aging. I was operated on successfully, but the operation is frequently followed by a cataract. I'm currently waiting on an operation for that.

    Anybody should think twice before doing anything that may invite a retinal detachment. Boxing is particularly bad.

    I'm determined to beat my problems. I hate dogs!
    Dave Gittins
    Titanic: Monument and Warning.
    http://titanicebook.com/Book.html

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    The interesting thing about bad teeth is that it often seems to be a result of the mixing of different human types - people with large jaws marrying people with small ones, and the resulting over-crowding in their offspring. Not to mention using sugar as a preservative or in processed food, of course.

    When one sees Africans, sometimes in very dire circumstances, I am often struck by how brilliant their teeth are compared to ours. And it's all natural.

    Some aspects of Baker Joughin's story must be true, as he survived after all, and was pulled from the freezing water after some time. Most modern doubts about his tale seem to me to hinge on the contemporary belief that drinking alcohol should have accelerated his demise, rather than protecting him against the elements. I'm not sure this is true.

    I reckon that the effects of alcohol are dependent upon one's age, BMI, general fitness etc., and that maybe alcohol did confer a short-term advantage for him. You might not want to take a chance on this in a tricky situation, of course.

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    I've always believed much of Baker Joughin's story. But with few to observe him that either lived or payed attention to one person's actions we have generally just his word. There were other accounts of drinking, Storekeeper Foley had some brandy on him, Jack Thayer talked of a man who downed a bottle of Gordon's Gin and later saw the man on the Carpathia. As you mention, there could be a lot of factors combined with the amount one drinks that may play a role in survival; if anything maybe it calmed those folks down to focus (best they could) on the situation and not get so upset that they made desperate choices. Acting on my own or what others have talked about those times when one drinks a lot; I/they don't always seem to remember the night before as clearly as what took place. But that again is a guess based on experiance, something to think about, but it doesn't change the baker's story officially, just a few things to ponder. If everything occurred the way he described it or even most everything, he is another interesting addition to those who tried to help and against all odds found a place among the living!

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    I'm sure I couldn't down a bottle of Gordon's gin. Well, not and survive anything at all, really. However, depending on one's capacity/limits, the alcohol could maybe confer short-term benefits. I can see that I might have jumped and survived better after a couple of glasses of white, but only if I were young - not now, of course. Instant death - cardiac arrest! But that wouldn't really to be anything to do with the alcohol - more just to do with age and general decrepitude.

    You can't take people's own evidence of their personal habits very seriously, and the only evidence we have is people who paddled around and either died or survived in waters that would kill most of us in a fairly short time. Why would some aging guy in a fur coat, primed with booze, survive when loads of other young, sober ones perished? Probably, because he didn't hit anything when he left the ship and took the dive. And was near enough to a boat. Just luck.

    One can over-analyse this sort of thing, you know.

  23. #23
    George L. Lorton
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    One can over-analyse this sort of thing, you know.
    Yes, indeed. Rhoda Abbott was up to either her knees or chest in the freezing water in collapsible A. She had seen her sons die of exposure when they were either on a piece of wreckage or in Collapsible A according to Amy Stanley's account.-


    Amy Stanley later recalled:

    "We were very close since we were on the Titanic together. And her stateroom had been near mine. I was the only one that she could talk to about her sons because I knew them myself. She told me that she would get [sic] in the lifeboat if there hadn't been so many people around. So she and her sons kept together. She was thankful that [the] three of them had stayed with her on that piece of wreckage (? Collapsible A Perhaps?-G.Lorton). The youngest went first then the other son went. She grew numb and cold and couldn't remember when she got on the Carpathia. There was a piece of cork in her hair and I managed to get a comb and it took a long time but finally we got it out."
    Taken from ET Rhoda Abbott's bio Collapsible A.

    - And yet Ms. Abbott made it after suffering a few broken ribs as well. I would have given up after an hour if I had suffered what she'd gone though.

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    Some more very good points. Trying to figure out who survived and how, after the ship left them would be a very long subject. If anything I guess it is the will to live, shock, chemical reactions in the body to keep one going . . . luck. Who really knows what one is capable of when all seems lost. I've had a few accidents in life and looking back, something kept me going when I should not have been up to it.

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    >>Trying to figure out who survived and how, after the ship left them would be a very long subject.<<

    Maybe not. For those who made it into the boats, by hook, crook, invitation or on orders, this one is a no-brainer. For those in contact with the water, the key to survival was getting out of it as soon as possible. They may have been uncomfortable and cold to the point of being frostbitten, but at least they survived.

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    Very true Michael,

    The quicker one got out of those temperatures the better. I was just thinking, that to factor in ranging metabolisms, stimulants, ability to cope with the anxiety factor, and many other such factors could take awhile or forever to go through. It also would be one of the more painful subjects, to talk about how some people could of made it, were others just where there to die, not by choice. Another question that comes to mind is, do we really want to know what happend to the 1500 or so that were in the water after the stern disappered or do we want to just ponder aspects. Personally I'm up to any challenge on the subject, but this one would be quite heartbreaking.

    Respectfully yours,

    Tom I. McLeod

 

 

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