Can anyone give me the 16 names for all (4) 1st and (12) 2nd class women? I've always been interested in the females, and the fact they perished when they could've easily been put into a lifeboat just makes me more curious about it.
Alright, will someone explain to me what happened to these women. I understand Mrs. Strauss and Allison (And her daughter) and I know about Ms. Evans (That still makes me so angry) But what happened to the other two?
In a side note. Ms. Evans and the three lady's she was traveling with seem to have little excuse to me. They all traveled first class and had plenty of time to get into a lifeboat. Why did they wait till the last one was lowering and was mostly full? Isin't this why Evans died? Because there was no more room on the lifeboat? I mean by the time that half the boats had left, reality had set in, so I do not understand why they did not leave ASAP!
Ms. Strauss you have to respect, but I furrow my brow at Mr. Strauss, as I believe I read he was told he could get in the lifeboat with his wife, and he refused. You think that if it would have saved his wife, he would have went. However, he said he would not leave before the other men. This was also very noble, but as many men WERE leaving the ship, and the lifeboat he was offered left with plenty of space for more, I believe he should have left with his wife.
Bess Allison makes me furious, her son was missing, I understand, but her daughter did not have to suffer a horrible death! Then again, who am I to pass judgment. I was not there, and therefore have no room to talk. I speak as a third party and cannot truly analyze the situation. It just seems like these people could have been saved and it makes me sad for them.
[Moderator's Note: This message, originally posted as a separate thread in the "Collision/Sinking Theories" topic, has been moved to this pre-existing thread addressing the same subject as this message. MAB]
Chris, there have been a lot of speculations in the forum concerning the fate of the 1st Class ladies who perished. If you use their names as keywords in the on-site search engine (see link at bottom of page) you'll find many references in existing threads, and those would be the best places to add your own comments or ask further questions. You'll find that the more time you spend on ET, the more familiar you'll become with the structure and content of the forum, and will appreciate that it's rarely necessary to start a new thread.
This index page is the best starting point for exploring the forum and its archives:
Unlike us, Mr Strauss didn't have the benefit of hindsight. At the time, it would not have been at all obvious that the lifeboat loading policies were rather different on the other side. Besides which, he was an honourable man. He had no argument with the principle of 'women and children first', and made it very clear that he was not prepared to jump the queue even if given the opportunity.
While I have asked the same questions as the above posters, it has to be accepted that each person's human response is not always going to be predictable. (I'm currently taking a class about the unconventional ways humans behave in terms of information seeking, ergo the psycho-analysis).
The following married women in these classes are easiest to understand from some basic facts known about them.
Ida Strauss of course and in Second Class
Lillian Carter - devoted wife of a clergyman
Elizabeth Chapman - newly married to her childhood sweetheart.
Ellen Howard - similar to Ida Strauss, in her sixties and no doubt married for many years to her husband.
Anna Lahtinen - though young, similar circumstances to Mrs. Carter. And there is the account of her actually getting in a boat which apparantly helped her decide she would rather die with her husband than live without him. So she jumped back on the ship again.
Dorothy Turpin - she and her husband were childless. Though it is unknown, if she was unable to have children she could easily have decided to go down with her husband.
Also, the wealth of information we have on Annie Funk gives a clear picture on her very giving nature as evidenced by her work with the children in India. Whether the story of her giving up her seat to a mother whose child was already aboard is true or not, she would probably give deference to passengers in steerage who she would percieve as being in most need of rescue.
Though she had the pull of small children at home, Irene Corbett sounds like she had a similar mindset and through her religious convictions may also have felt called to make room for those less fortunate passengers.
The following women have more question marks to their actions.
Ms. Yrois was attached to the married William Harbeck. If this were her first trip aboard and she spoke only French she may have felt safer sticking with her lover.
The bits of information known about Mrs. Corey and Karnes give only tantalyzing clues to their circumstances. There is a string in the Biographical - Second Class section about the former being in an advanced pregnancy and even if she had not gone into premature labor, getting aboard a lifeboat may have been too daunting that both women opted to hope for the best, not realizing the danger until too late. Compared to steerage, the impact was not as jarring in the upper classes, so someone like the 7 months pregnant Marie Backstrom who in steerage would have been more aware of the danger, was motivated enough to climb over the railing into boat D though she left behind a husband and two brothers.
Also, I have always been intrigued by the possibility that word was sent to Mrs. Karnes on board ship that her husband had died back in India. That news would certainly not have left her with a willingness to save herself.
Next, we have Mary Mack. Twice widowed, she has been put forward as one of the most likely candidates for the woman who raised a fuss at Boat 9 and then ran off. This could have been a panic reaction and she convinced herself she was safer on the ship.
Finally, the most mysterious of the lot is Marta Hiltunen. From the bit posted about her, I have come up with a scenario similar to that of 3rd Class victim Elin Ester Braf. In Judith Gellar's account of the Johnson family, Mrs. Johnson and infant daughter were aboard boat 15 while Elin was still holding Harold Johnson. She had just watched her friend make a scary, difficult fall into a crewman's arms to get in and paniced to the point that the boy had to be yanked out of her grasp and she left behind. I wonder if after seeing Mrs. Hamalanen and baby maneuver through the window into boat 4, Marta like Elin Braf, was too scared to attempt getting into the lifeboat.
This of course brings us back to Edith Evans in 1st Class, who in some accounts was too intimidated to try scaling the railing into D while Marie Backstrom overcame her fear, physical condition and grief over the men to save herself.
The complexity of each person's life experience, with signficant and mundane influences definitely have direct effects on how each will respond in this extraordinary situation.
I think with regards to mrs Allison not putting lorraine in aboat - I think after the pure panick of one child going missing- and the fact that she was separated from Hudson for a big chunk of the evening makes me this she just got completely paranoid about being separated from lorraine - especially if u consider the life boats being lowered 60 feet into a dark sea - I can fully understand why she didnt let lorraine go - she must have been very confused, its very sad.
I am reading A NIGHT TO REMEMBER and las night I read page 109 which states a woman in 1st class divorced her husband which according to gossip was because he happened to survive! Who is he refering to? [email protected]
Regarding the fate of Marta Hiltunen, I have this from Cris Kohl's Titanic: The Great Lakes Connections.
"Anna Hamalainen, her baby son, and Marta Hiltunen arrived late on deck, having ensured that they were all warmly dressed.
"Stay close to me," Anna warned the nervous Marta, who spoke no English.
"Here's a woman with a baby," shouted one of the ship's officers as Anna came into view. "Hurry and get into the boat," he told her. Anna turned and handed Marta her handbag and stepped into the lifeboat with her baby, fully expecting Marta to follow. But Marta hesitated, and Anna's boat was lowered. It was one of the last. Anna, dropping slowly towards the water, watched Marta standing near a group of men and women on the other side of the ship's railing."
Her friend and travel companion, Marta Hiltunen, unfortunately went down with the ship. "The loss of poor little Marta, who started for the strange country with such high hopes, is hard to think of," Anna would sigh later back in Detroit.
Regarding Claire Karnes and Marta Hiltunen, I recall reading something in Walter Lord's book 'A Night to Remember' about a gate from second to first class being locked and two women behind it, asking if they could go to the boats, and an officer saying, "No, there are boats on the lower decks," or something to that effect. Is this true? It seems very far-fetched that second class women would be locked behind a gate, and even more so that an officer wouldn't let them through. I was just thinking that if if was the truth, perhaps these could be Karnes and Corey?
If the boats were on A-deck, then it would have been impossible for the ladies to reach them from within 2nd Class. The stairs to take them to that level were in 1st Class. - The port-side boats were on the Boat-deck. - Wonder why they crossed over?