2nd Officer Stone's Interrogation.


Jim Currie

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I'm not interested in engaging with you, but when I see you post false information I feel compelled to point out your false claims.

There are tables that show the correction for non-standard temps and pressures. Your number is highly exaggerated. Crude is an understatement.


Are you seriously suggesting that given the prevailing conditions that morning, the normal criteria applied....really?


You must be consulting kitchen tables, Here is an actual Table showing corrections to be applied to Mean Refraction according to the prevailing air temperature and barometric pressures.
Correction Table 2019-06-04 001.jpg


"The coefficient of refraction is directly related to the local vertical temperature gradient and the atmospheric temperature and pressure. "

The maximum distortion conditions prevailed. Do you know what the possibilities regarding the amount of refraction existed at that time? No, you don't, nor do I, but it would have been considerable... Hence Tim Malton's findings of "Much refraction". Why don't you simply admit that you did not think to factor that in when considering Rostron's sighting of the green flare? Might the unthinkable be true? That you might just be wrong?

Edited to correct confused quotation formatting. MAB
 
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Jim Currie

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I do not understand how you could tell where was the Californian. If Captain Lord did not know where was the horizon how he was able to calculate his position?
Captain Lord had a position for 7-40 pm that evening, Alex. Because he knew the direction in which he was traveling and had a means of measuring distance, he simply used his direction and how far he had travelled from 7-40 pm to 10-21 pm to determine where he was when he stopped. Hhe did not move from that position until the next morning. OK?
 

Julian Atkins

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Hi Alex,

I don't know whether this helps but Captain Lord's position when stopped on the edge of the ice at 10.21pm on 14th April was derived from dead reckoning of his noon sightings earlier that day. Additionally, he gave his position to The Antillian of 3 bergs seen at 6.30pm ships time on the 14th, which is very well recorded, and the original Marconi chit written out by Captain Lord and Cyril Evans in their own handwriting survives somewhere and has been published as a pic of same in Booth's book.

There were subtle adjustments to The Californian's due westwards course according to Captain Lord and all other witnesses, according to the evidence, and no sharp turn southwards to avoid ice that other ships did, except also Titanic.

The evidence from the witnesses and much else is that The Californian was at the relevant time steaming sort of due west on the Boston track which was some 20 miles north of the New York track for westbound ships.

According to Captain Lord's dead reckoning position to The Antillian at 6.30pm on the 14th April, he was where he ought to have been at the time of sighting the 3 bergs, and it was a Marconi 'MSG' to a ship of the same Leyland Line, and a ship he had previously first been promoted Captain of to command, once again now in charge of Captain Japha, some 25 years his senior, and Captain Japha had been the first to be Captain of The Californian at sea after commissioning. There was a lot of stuff going on here, especially when The Antillian's position was given (and recorded) and well clear of the ice.

Bride suggested Evans had sent the same message to other ships, and I think Turnball agreed with this, but Evans was not asked on all this or recalled at the British Inquiry. The published PVs do not disclose that he did this, and only examination of the originals will provide further leads, as the published PVs concentrate on latter matters when the Titanic was sinking. We do know when The Californian first got in contact with Titanic and exchanged "TRs", but this is all getting rather off thread.

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Dave Gittins

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I'm watching this rather pointless argument from the cheap seats, but as my name has been taken in vain, I'll put my oar in. Back in 1998, I proposed that Captain Rostron, trying to reconcile his supposed navigation with reality, made a little mistake. He didn't sight Boxhall's flare at 2-40am, but at 2 hr 40min into his mission, or at about 3-15am. At that time, he was about 10 miles from Boxhall, maybe a bit less. He covered that distance at around a realistic 15 knots, slowing toward the end, and arrived at about 4-00am. It all comes together quite neatly.
 
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AlexP

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I don't know whether this helps but Captain Lord's position when stopped on the edge of the ice at 10.21pm on 14th April was derived from dead reckoning of his noon sightings earlier that day
I’m not sure about this

8706. (The Solicitor-General.) What I want to know is, how they arrived at the latitude which is put down, I presume, by dead reckoning at 10.20. I am right; it would be by dead reckoning you would get it?
- Not only that; I had the Pole Star at half-past ten.

And
8798. When did you get the observation of the pole star that enabled you to fix your position?
- About half-past 7.
 

AlexP

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I'm watching this rather pointless argument from the cheap seats, but as my name has been taken in vain, I'll put my oar in. Back in 1998, I proposed that Captain Rostron, trying to reconcile his supposed navigation with reality, made a little mistake. He didn't sight Boxhall's flare at 2-40am, but at 2 hr 40min into his mission, or at about 3-15am. At that time, he was about 10 miles from Boxhall, maybe a bit less. He covered that distance at around a realistic 15 knots, slowing toward the end, and arrived at about 4-00am. It all comes together quite neatly.
But why 10 miles? How you explain why Captain Rostron did not sight Boxhall’s green flare when he was 13 miles away for instance?
 

Dave Gittins

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Firstly, given the height of eye of an observer on Carpathia, a flare held about two metres above the water comes into view at about ten miles off. Even that assumes the flare was bright enough to be seen at that distance, which is a bit doubtful. Boxhall may have been even closer. There's nothing to show that he happened to fire a flare just as Carpathia reached the ten mile point.

Secondly, Carpathia passenger, Howard Chapin, was looking on and he placed the sight at after 3-00am.

Thirdly, survivor Mahala Douglas was told by Captain Rostron that he sighted the flare at ten miles.

Fourthly, my proposal fits the facts quite neatly.
 
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Jim Currie

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But if the horizon was elevated how he knew that his 7:40 position was correct ?
Hello Alex.

If you are a Navigator, then you will understand the following:

At 7-40 pm the Chief officer took a sight of the Pole Star. The prevailing sea and sky conditions described for that time would have been a navigator's dream...calm sea, clear visibility and a sharp horizon. The Chief Officer was a very experienced navigator. When working his position from the Pole Star, he would have applied corrections for his height of eye above the sea and for refraction due to the prevailing conditions. All navigators were taught to do so. Therefore, unless there was something wrong with the C/O's sextant, his position would have been correct to within half a mile. As far as Longitude was concerned. As to whether his Longitude was correct or nearly correct? That would depend on the accuracy of his patent log.
 

Jim Currie

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Hi Alex,

I don't know whether this helps but Captain Lord's position when stopped on the edge of the ice at 10.21pm on 14th April was derived from dead reckoning of his noon sightings earlier that day. Additionally, he gave his position to The Antillian of 3 bergs seen at 6.30pm ships time on the 14th, which is very well recorded, and the original Marconi chit written out by Captain Lord and Cyril Evans in their own handwriting survives somewhere and has been published as a pic of same in Booth's book.

There were subtle adjustments to The Californian's due westwards course according to Captain Lord and all other witnesses, according to the evidence, and no sharp turn southwards to avoid ice that other ships did, except also Titanic.

The evidence from the witnesses and much else is that The Californian was at the relevant time steaming sort of due west on the Boston track which was some 20 miles north of the New York track for westbound ships.

According to Captain Lord's dead reckoning position to The Antillian at 6.30pm on the 14th April, he was where he ought to have been at the time of sighting the 3 bergs, and it was a Marconi 'MSG' to a ship of the same Leyland Line, and a ship he had previously first been promoted Captain of to command, once again now in charge of Captain Japha, some 25 years his senior, and Captain Japha had been the first to be Captain of The Californian at sea after commissioning. There was a lot of stuff going on here, especially when The Antillian's position was given (and recorded) and well clear of the ice.

Bride suggested Evans had sent the same message to other ships, and I think Turnball agreed with this, but Evans was not asked on all this or recalled at the British Inquiry. The published PVs do not disclose that he did this, and only examination of the originals will provide further leads, as the published PVs concentrate on latter matters when the Titanic was sinking. We do know when The Californian first got in contact with Titanic and exchanged "TRs", but this is all getting rather off thread.

Cheers,

Julian
Hello Julian.

Lord's 10-21 pm position was not calculated from the Noon position but from the 7-40 pm evening sights using the Pole Star.
The Ice report you refer to was derived from an afternoon Longitude combined with use of patent log indication of speed. He would have had a patent Log update at 6pm that evening. It would be over an hour before his latitude could be updated and by then the message had been sent.
 

Jim Currie

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I'm watching this rather pointless argument from the cheap seats, but as my name has been taken in vain, I'll put my oar in. Back in 1998, I proposed that Captain Rostron, trying to reconcile his supposed navigation with reality, made a little mistake. He didn't sight Boxhall's flare at 2-40am, but at 2 hr 40min into his mission, or at about 3-15am. At that time, he was about 10 miles from Boxhall, maybe a bit less. He covered that distance at around a realistic 15 knots, slowing toward the end, and arrived at about 4-00am. It all comes together quite neatly.
Hello there, Dave.

Taking your name in vain? How dare they!o_O

Seriously, though...this argument is only pointless if there is nothing to argue about. I put it to you, there most certainly is... a lot.

I started this thread to examine the evidence of Californian's 2nd Officer Stone. As you know, Stone said many things. However, the evidence of Rostron of the Carpathia is directly related to the evidence given by Stone (and Apprentice Gibson) regarding the sighing of "lights" on the horizon after 3-15 am on the morning of April 15.

The discussion about the green light visibility is. date I say it? a "green" herring. On such a night, it would have most certainly been seen at a much greater distance than 10 miles. Under normal conditions of a temp. of 10C, 10 miles is the extreme range for a combined height of eye of 75 feet, Carpathia's Crow's nest was higher than that and the temperature at sea level was about 0C. In addition, they were in the middle of an Anti-cyclone. Note that at 3-10 am, Rostron did not tell Titanic he was going to fire rockets but that he was actually firing them. Which brings me back to the reason for Rostron's involvement in the discussion... his rockets.
If, as has been suggested, Rostron had fired signal such as those fired by Titanic and if, they rose to a height of say 500 feet above the sea, then if observers with eyes, 55 feet above the sea saw these signals right on their visible horizon, the separation distance between such vessels. under standard conditions of temperature and barometric pressure, would be 34.2 nautical miles. Do you agree?

Now consider this, if when that signal was fired, Rostron was 10 miles away from Boxhall, then the observers who saw his signal on the horizon would have been 24 .2 miles away from Boxhall. Keep in mind that we are considering a situation using normal conditions.

It has been argued that Stone and Gibson were somehow unable to see the horizon... even through binoculars and that the lights they saw were above their visible horizon... even though they could see stars setting on the horizon. You have been at sea on such a night... do you swallow that nonsense?
 

Rob Lawes

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barometric pressure, would be 34.2 nautical miles. Do you agree?

Now consider this, if when that signal was fired, Rostron was 10 miles away from Boxhall, then the observers who saw his signal on the horizon would have been 24 .2 miles away from Boxhall. Keep in mind that we are considering a situation using normal conditions.
The figure of 24.2 miles is a minimum figure and only holds true if Californian, Boxhall and Carpathia are in a direct line.

However, since Carpathia steered a course of N52W towards Titanic, 24.2 Miles on from Boxhall on that course would put Californian way to the west of the ice field.
 

AlexP

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Hello Alex.

If you are a Navigator, then you will understand the following:

At 7-40 pm the Chief officer took a sight of the Pole Star. The prevailing sea and sky conditions described for that time would have been a navigator's dream...calm sea, clear visibility and a sharp horizon. The Chief Officer was a very experienced navigator. When working his position from the Pole Star, he would have applied corrections for his height of eye above the sea and for refraction due to the prevailing conditions. All navigators were taught to do so. Therefore, unless there was something wrong with the C/O's sextant, his position would have been correct to within half a mile. As far as Longitude was concerned. As to whether his Longitude was correct or nearly correct? That would depend on the accuracy of his patent log.
It is what I am saying. If he applied the corrections his position was wrong because i’ve read in wikipedia

As early as 1830, Friedrich Bessel had found that even after applying all corrections for temperature and pressure (but not for the temperature gradient) at the observer, highly precise measurements of refraction varied by ±0.19′ at two degrees above the horizon and by ±0.50′ at a half degree above the horizon.[5] At and below the horizon, values of refraction significantly higher than the nominal value of 35.4′ have been observed in a wide range of climates.

So the table they used in 1912 was dead wrong, and so was the Californian’s position. Everybody was wrong, the Titanic, the Carpathia and the Californian. They did not get their correct positions because the refraction table does not work.
 

AlexP

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Firstly, given the height of eye of an observer on Carpathia, a flare held about two metres above the water comes into view at about ten miles off. Even that assumes the flare was bright enough to be seen at that distance, which is a bit doubtful. Boxhall may have been even closer. There's nothing to show that he happened to fire a flare just as Carpathia reached the ten mile point.

Secondly, Carpathia passenger, Howard Chapin, was looking on and he placed the sight at after 3-00am.

Thirdly, survivor Mahala Douglas was told by Captain Rostron that he sighted the flare at ten miles.

Fourthly, my proposal fits the facts quite neatly.
If according to your speculation Carpathia observed the first flare at 3:15 how Mr. Chapin could have sighted the first rocket at 3?
If Captain Rostron told Ms. Douglas that he sighted the flare at 10 miles why in the world he testified that he sighted it at twenty miles?
 

Rob Lawes

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Don't forget, all the ships involved had their own local apparent ship time therefore there will always be differences between quoted times depending on the source of the observation.

The precise times of clocks on each vessel has been the subject of heated debate on here on a number of occasions.
 

Jim Currie

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The figure of 24.2 miles is a minimum figure and only holds true if Californian, Boxhall and Carpathia are in a direct line.

However, since Carpathia steered a course of N52W towards Titanic, 24.2 Miles on from Boxhall on that course would put Californian way to the west of the ice field.
That is true, Rob, and was for illustration purposes only.

In reality, if Californian was NW of Boxhall, you would be correct, she would have been on the wrong side of the ice barrier and a mere 24 miles away. However, the stopped position given by Lord is NNE of Boxhall. That being so, then Californian would have been on the east side of the ice and 25.3 miles from Boxhall. See here:
Carpathia at 10m..jpg

For Californian to have been nearer than 24 miles to Boxhall when Carpathia was 10 miles from him, and her signal seen on Californian's horizon, then the Carpathia signal had to be much less than 500 feet above sea level or it was seen well above Californian's horizon. More so given the conditions prevailing.
You can also see that despite Sam's claim, it would have been impossible for Boxhall to be 4 miles east of a barrier trending NW to SE if the Mesaba Ice Report was correct.
 

Rob Lawes

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It's rather odd that Stone talks of a vessel seen bang on the port beam (due south with Californian facing due west) at 0400 when at a similar time Carpathia sees a vessel bearing N30W true from Boxhall's boat.
 

AlexP

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a flare held about two metres
I wonder how you got the number 2 meters?
Height of a person standing on a thwart with his arm aloft will be probably more than 2 meters. If you're to add to this the altitude of the flare it will be at least 3 meters.
From 60 feet high Carpathia's bridge Captain Rostron could have seen Boxhall's flare at 13 miles.
 

Jim Currie

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It is what I am saying. If he applied the corrections his position was wrong because i’ve read in wikipedia

As early as 1830, Friedrich Bessel had found that even after applying all corrections for temperature and pressure (but not for the temperature gradient) at the observer, highly precise measurements of refraction varied by ±0.19′ at two degrees above the horizon and by ±0.50′ at a half degree above the horizon.[5] At and below the horizon, values of refraction significantly higher than the nominal value of 35.4′ have been observed in a wide range of climates.

So the table they used in 1912 was dead wrong, and so was the Californian’s position. Everybody was wrong, the Titanic, the Carpathia and the Californian. They did not get their correct positions because the refraction table does not work.
Oh, but they knew all about Bessel in 1912. Alex. This from the same tables used in [email protected]:
2019-06-05 001 2019-06-05 001.jpg


I used them for demonstrating the phenomenon. Note the word "seldom" the reason for that is that in 99% of instances, the conditions do not merit their use. However, that evening, you can be sure that Stewart would have used them as would have Boxhall and Pitman.
 
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You must be consulting kitchen tables, Here is an actual Table showing corrections to be applied to Mean Refraction according to the prevailing air temperature and barometric pressures.
What you said was: "objects are visible for another 3.25 degrees below the normal horizon."

I said, "Your number is highly exaggerated. Crude is an understatement."

Yes, using your tables, not kitchen tables, how on earth do you get a temperature correction of 1.4' and barometric correct of 1.86' to add up to 3.25 degrees? The last I looked 1.4'+1.86'=3.26', that is in minutes-of-arc, not degrees. Your statement about objects being visible 3.25 degrees below the horizon is blatantly false by a factor 60 times.

So I'll repeat what I said, "Your number is highly exaggerated. Crude is an understatement."
The problem here is that there are people who tend to believe everything you happen to say.
 
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