$300000000 in Diamonds


J

Joshua Doyle Tift

Guest
My source would be the book TITANIC WOMAN AND CHILDREN FIRST. By Judith B. Geller so there is your SOURCE!!! She talks about the Billiard brothers who were diamond miners. Also read the books TITANIC The Great Lakes Connections by Cris Kohl and Titanic An Illustrated History. The gems may be in the safe still or in his room. Other shipments of diamonds would of course been shipped secretly but why all the talk about it if it was not true. History has a way of letting its secrets out slowly.
 
Jan 28, 2003
2,524
14
223
Mr. Tift,
the general tone of your posts is rather aggressive and confrontational. Please read the forum rules, and treat others with respect. Many people here have undertaken considerable, verifiable, and published research in many fields, and do not need to be told rather rudely to read books which I am quite certain they know all about.

Paul's question to you is quite right and, to expand on what he and Michael are saying -
primary sources are supporting documentation or verbal testimony from the time of the voyage / aftermath. So, insurance documents, tickets, manifests, evidence to the US or British Inquiries etc. are primary sources. You could also use written eyewitness accounts of the sinking like Lawrence Beesley's. Newspaper articles embroidered, or even simply made up, by sensation-hungry journalists are not reliable, neither is hearsay gossip surfacing sometimes years after the event. Anyone is entitled to write a book about any aspect of the Titanic, and everyone else is entitled to be skeptical if the author cannot support their argument with references to primary sources. That is the point both Michael and Paul were making to you.

I think everyone agrees there might have been some good jewellery on board, but they do not believe it is either reliably documented, or that it could be recovered without great difficulty and uncertainty.
 
Dec 2, 2000
58,609
648
483
Easley South Carolina
>>My source would be the book TITANIC WOMAN AND CHILDREN FIRST. By Judith B. Geller so there is your SOURCE!!! <<

Speaking strictly as a moderator...cool it.

The agressive and confrontational tone of your posts that Monica pointed to don't make your case and may very well drive off people who may otherwise be willing to help you out in finding the real history.

Now, moderator's hat off and speaking strictly from one interested member to another, I'm familier with the books you mentioned and even have my own copies. While I'm sure the authors did the best they could, their works are not without their errors. When asking for a source, the best possible source you can provide is a primary source of the sort that Monica mentioned.

Is there any such to back up the claims made by Ms. Geller or Mr. Kohl? If not, be cautious. They may well be repeating the mythos as opposed to the reality without even knowing it.
 
Jan 3, 2001
91
0
146
It seems there were quite a few articles about valuable gems on the ship. Along with the two posted above, I found on my trip to Philadelphia an article in the Philadelphia Public Ledger, April 17, 1912:

TITANIC CARRIED $5,000,000 GEMS
------------------
Diamonds consigned to New York Importers
in Mail Bags
------------------
OWNERS WILL LOSE HEAVILY
 

Inger Sheil

Member
Dec 3, 2000
5,342
60
308
Many thanks for posting that, Rosanne - it certainly gives an indication of what rumours were circulating at the time.

Sounds like your trip to Philadelphia was quite a success!

~ Ing
 
J

Joshua Doyle Tift

Guest
I still believe more of what Mr.and Mrs. Geller have to say rather than what the papers have to say about the subject.
 
Dec 2, 2000
58,609
648
483
Easley South Carolina
>>I still believe more of what Mr.and Mrs. Geller have to say rather than what the papers have to say about the subject.<<

Why?

They're no closer to the problem then the people who wrote those newspaper articles and in reality are a lot further removed. What are their sources and what makes them more reliable. Questioning this sort of thing is part and parcel to critical thinking and good research. They may well be onto something, but I want to see something more credible then "Arnie and Judith Geller sez it."
 
J

Joshua Doyle Tift

Guest
Why because Mr. Geller is part owner of the wreck and of course he knows more of what is going on than that of the newspapers.Their sources are the people in which they work with and have studied the wreck and other sources to deal with it, unlike the newspapers.So with that they are closer to the problem.
 
Dec 2, 2000
58,609
648
483
Easley South Carolina
>>Why because Mr. Geller is part owner of the wreck <<

No he isn't. The corperation he's the CEO of...RMS Titanic Inc. is the Salvor in possesion, not the owner. Even if he was the owner, this is hardly proof that he knows what's aboard anymore then qualified historians who have gone over the manifests. Your answer is a non-sequiter.

>>and of course he knows more of what is going on than that of the newspapers<<

Not necceserily.

>>Their sources are the people in which they work with and have studied the wreck and other sources to deal with it, unlike the newspapers.So with that they are closer to the problem.<<

Not nessecerily. What are his sources and what makes them better then the family members and survivors that historians have interviewed over the years as well as the court documents gone over by same? What is there to indicate that they may not be buying into some tall tales and family legends that have been spun?

Remember, just because somebody claims something is there does not mean they're being truthful about it. Being wealthy doesn't mean any of these people are above attempts at insurance fraud.
 

Dave Gittins

Member
Apr 11, 2001
5,041
296
353
As a matter of fact, Judith Geller describes the diamond story as "unsubstantiated" (page 170) "Fable" (page 172). She adds, "Perhaps it was just a tale told by a bragging father that made its way into the press, then became truth by repetition." (page 172)

Austin van Billiard was carrying a pouch containing 12 diamonds. Why would he carry a few and put others in the safe. Chances are, he only had a few. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras!

Diamonds are not necessarily worth much anyway, especially when uncut. The price is kept artificially high and markups in shops are huge. There would need to be an awful lot of them to pay for a dive on the wreck.

If you want a real deal, there's an old bridge in Sydney that's going to be demolished so that Queen Mary 2 can go up Sydney Harbour. All I need are investors to ensure I get the job.
 
D

David Haisman

Guest
Hi Everyone,
I have a little bit of time on my hands these days so may be able to offer some ''snippits'' which you may find of interest.
Perhaps you can draw your own conclusions on the above valuables that may have been carried on Titanic which is always open to debate.
When serving with Union Castle Line in the 50's, gold was carried on every voyage from Cape Town to Southampton and then transferred to the Cunard berth for shipment on the next Cunard Liner to the U.S.
As seamen, we learned that this had been an on-going arrangement from as long ago as Titanic's day and was never entered on the ship's manifest, this being a government controlled operation and requirement.
Unless you were aware of what was going on, you would never believe the low-key way in which it was carried out.
Perhaps there were one or two ''Bobbies'' on the dockside as the small crates were unloaded and placed into one of the ordinary rolling stock, carriages.

Imagine that going on today !!

These were then taken around to 43/44 berth, the Cunard berth, and loaded onboard either the QM or QE for shipment to New York. The gold would remain on the Union Castle liner until sailing day of the Cunarder.
On one voyage from South Africa, gold bullion was ''knocked off'' and hidden in sand boxes on the ship's boat deck. A definite inside job and they were soon all caught which was reported in Southampton's Daily Echo around 1960.
Strong Rooms on the Queens Mary and Elizabeth were well for'ard and on arrival at Cherbourg we would pick up expensive furs for Strong Rooms which were seperate from the gold and which were designed with a cooling system for these items.
God only knows why they were kept cool but it may have prevented moulting....who knows!
Strong Rooms on these ships were checked every watch by a senior deck officer and Master-At-Arms and recorded. In the light of this I can assume that Titanic may have had bullion well for'ard but unattainable by it's low position in the fore peak and force of impact on the ocean floor.
You may make of that what you like, but like the rest of you, I'm completely in the dark on that one!

David H
 
Dec 2, 2000
58,609
648
483
Easley South Carolina
>>You may make of that what you like, but like the rest of you, I'm completely in the dark on that one!<<

Welcome to the club, shipmate! I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if gold and specie valued to some rediculously high sums was buried in the strongroom, but for obvious reasons of security, such information would have been closely held. It seems to me that any attempt at recovery would be extremely dangerous as well to say nothing of prohibetively expensive. Somebody might figure a way to get in, but I'd bet very long odds on them ever getting out again!
 

Similar threads

Similar threads