4 People Pulled from the Water


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Jun 12, 2004
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As we know, Lowe, in lifeboat 14, went back to pick up survivors. Despite debate that there were 6, 3, or whatever, we know it has to have been 4. After all, that was Lowe's tally. He doesn't strike me as having been so dim-witted that he could have miscounted 4 people aside from his crew and a volunteer (C.E. Williams). Therefore, as an eyewitness, Lowe had to have known the correct number. Anyway, my question is this: who were the four he picked up? Below is a list composed by most sources:

1) 1st class passenger W.F. Hoyt (died in boat during the night, probably from a broken neck incurred by his life belt after jumping into the water)

2) Steward John Stewart

3) A Japanese strapped to a door (although a couple of sources claim that it has since been verified to have actually been a 3rd class passenger named "Chang," a Chinese man, who file a claim after the sinking)

4) ?


I don't remember who the fourth was, and I cannot find the source. Does anyone know offhand? Thanks.

--Mark
 
Mar 18, 2000
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Possibly Steward Harold Phillimore. My sources are the books Titanic Voices, and Don Lynch & Ken Marschall's Illustrated History.
 
Jun 12, 2004
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Thanks Bill. It sounds familiar. I have the second, but not the first. That one, along with Eaton and Haas' Titanic--Triumph and Tragedy (2nd ed.), are two of the most comprehensive books I've seen and have. E & H's book I have studied word for word, and there's still new things I find when I pick it up and skim through it, Hmmm.
 
Dec 13, 1998
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Dear Mark - the identity of the alleged fourth person has never been established. Steward John Stewart was rescued in boat 15 and was subsequently never in the water. That 'young steward' referred to was Harold Phillimore and not John Stewart.
I am not sure there was a fourth person, but if there was, I think Thure Lundström may be a candidate.

Best regards,

Peter
 
Mar 18, 2000
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Thanks for that, Peter. I remembered there was some issue about Stewart, but had forgotten the details. Now I do - another crewmember had placed Stewart in #15, and the Inquiry testimony was confusing as to whether it was 'Stewart' or 'steward' picked up from the water.

Mark - yes, Triumph & Tragedy is a good book. However, my main regret about it is the index is very inadequate - so much is left unlisted.
 
Jun 12, 2004
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Peter: I thanks for the update. I was merely acknowledging info that I had received in various other sources. It's understandable how the words "stewart" and "steward" can become interchangeably misunderstood.

BILL: Yes, I noticed that several people were left off the passenger list, and no doubt there's more. As we know, it's always been incomplete, and it will never really be certain as to the identity of every single person who was on that ship, considering that many were probably never on the passenger list in the first place.

--Mark
 
Mar 18, 2000
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Well, there are a few people here at ET who have a far more complete and accurate picture of the passengers, and specifically the survivors, than 'the books' have posted. For example, it has been proven to at least my satisfaction that 712 people were rescued.

Also - now that far more of the primary source material, such as the Inquiries, are available, many of us are going to them for the data, instead of the books. And the confusion of 'Stewart' and 'steward', is right there to see in the Inquiries!
 
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Another possibility for picked up from the sea by #14 - 2nd Class passenger Emilio Portaluppi. My notes say this is from Peter & Chris Dohany's web-site. Peter or Chris, any further info on this?
 
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Yes, I have been reading on the Inquiries, too, but the problem with that is the versions that I have read were in those books, so no doubt they're edited. Do you have an idea where I may find a complete, unedited copy of each Inquiry? I would be much obliged. Thanks, Bill.
 
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Hi Mark,

I just wanted to offer some info about the passenger list that appeared in the 2nd edition of "Titanic: Triumph & Tragedy".

As one of several researchers who compiled that list, I wanted to let you know that names were "left off" but not intentionally. A separate list of first-class servants, consisting of maids, valets, secretaries etc., was sent to the publishers to be placed at the end of the list. For many years, these men and women were nameless, and we intended for them to be given the same treatment as the others. Unfortunately, the publishers lost that "special" list of people and it never made it into the book. Once again, it appeared that these men and women were "forgotten". I have been asked about this countless times, and I am also sorry to have to answer. The same publishers didn't make the same mistake twice when they published "Titanic: Women and Children First" by Judith Geller in 1998. The servants finally got their identities.

The publishers said there was no room for a crew list, so unfortunately that too was placed into the shredder.

There are several errors in the Triumph and Tragedy passenger list - it is noticeable when you compare it with present day lists such as the one here on ET. However, the T&T list is ten years old and was the first that had appeared since Walter Lord's compilation in "A Night To Remember" in 1955. While we knew there would be future additions and corrections at the time of its publication in 1994, it needed to be done to at least modify and update the list in Walter's book from the 1950s. Even today, we are still learning about these men and women and it is truly amazing just how much has been discovered and continues to be.

Best regards,

Mike Findlay
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>Mike S.: Thanks for the link. I will certainly look into it. I'd much rather get it free than pay a small fortune for it.<<

Understandable. Especially if you're on a budget. As it happens, I have the printed hardcopies for use away from my computer. (They go with me to work and are read during the lunch hour all the time.) Still, having this website in my bookmarks is a lot handier then laying a book in my lap and all I have to do to give testimony a proper cite is to cut and paste the thing.

I just hope you can get past the speeches and discussions that have nothing to do with the testimony without falling asleep. Important they may be for historical research, but they are the most mind numbingly boring parts of either transcript. Great tranquilizer though!
 
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Mike Findlay: Thanks for noticing the post, Mike. I appreciate the explanation. I wondered why there wasn't a crew list included. Also, it's a shame that the publishers lost the 1st class servants list. But I've also noticed that there were some passengers missing, too, such as Harry Haven Homer, George Brereton, Edward Keeping, and Frederick Miles. Are these passengers recent discoveries? I'm sure that there are even more not included. I can understand why not many lists have been compiled--the passenger and crew lists were so incomplete and inconsistent, and therefore uncertain, that researchers hesitated to attempt it, even after Lord's.

Mike S.: Thanks for the link. I will certainly look into it. I'd much rather get it free than pay a small fortune for it.
 
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I'm sure many of the people at the hearings fell asleep to it, hehe. Look at one picture where Ismay is resting, almost dozing, on his elbow-propped hand, hehe.

As for me, I read it all. As boring as parts of it may be for some, I find it very fascinating, so it's not boring to me.
 
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>>Look at one picture where Ismay is resting, almost dozing, on his elbow-propped hand, hehe. <<

Well now, anyone who falls asleep in public when a politician is spewing out a windy monologue can't be all bad!
wink.gif
 
Mar 18, 2000
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Mike S. mentioned The Titanic Inquiry site - what he forgot to mention, Mark, is that downloadable copies of the Inquiries are also available there. That is what I keep on my hard drive - a lot easier for searching.

The Inquiries there are not editting down, like the Kuntz book of the Senate investigation, if that is what you mean.
 
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David Haisman

Guest
Regarding Lifeboat 14. and witnessed by the 15 year old Edith Brown.

'' As my mother and I sat there, the men in the lifeboat pulled 4 people out of the water altogether.'' My mother said later that one of them had died and the other was muttering and sounded something like an Irishman.''

Source: Edith Brown/Haisman relating her experiences to her large family and many friends over approx 85 years or so.

David Haisman
 
Dec 13, 1998
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Hello everybody - there was a suggestion that perhaps two of the four died in boat 14. Two crewmen mentioned this (I think one of them was Evans). It is possible that the fourth who was dragged in was Abraham Harmer/David Livshin.

Peter
 
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David Haisman

Guest
''....was a lot of lifeboats there, and people in life rafts you know....some of them frozen dead. It was terrible.... and they threw all the chairs over...everything went over the side for people, for rafts you see. It was a terrible experience.''

Source: Part of the Haisman (copyright) audio collection circa 1958.
 
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David Haisman

Guest
'' I know we had to bail the water out a lot because the boat was leaking.....but I couldn't say....must've had a few men there to row...must've''

Source: Part of the Haisman (copyright) audio collection circa. 1960.

For other info on a 1 hour long CD read by myself and sister along with recordings of our mother talking on the sinking of the Titanic, please e-mail privately.

David Haisman
 
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