A Big Shindig in Topeka KS on December 3rd through the 7th


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Oct 28, 2000
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Hey-- you guys are ruining a great story.

To answer the more serious ice question--my research shows that ice is not hard enough to "slice" through steel. If contact with the ice opened Titanic, it had to be by stressing the rivetted seams to the point they came unzipped. But, I have seen physical damage to a 1911-era ship where physical contact dented the seam, rivets and all, but did not open the seam. So, I have some difficulty with direct ice action as a primary cause of the sinking.

NOTE: This does not mean there were no open seams. Obviously, there were open seams and at least one was reported by Barrett in boiler room #5. I happen to believe there are other, more logical, reasons for seams unzipping during the accident.

-- David G. Brown
 
Apr 7, 2001
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David,

Thanks for your response.

You have my curiosity. What are your beliefs on other, more logical reasons for seams unzipping during the impact?

Teri
 
Oct 28, 2000
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Rivetted seams involve overlapping plates. This overlap would flex with the plates if struck from the side by an iceberg. Some deformation of rivets might occur, but with the inside frames ("ribs" of the ship) so close together, that deformation would be extremely localized. This is what I have seen on real ships, although none of the damage that I have observed is on the magnitude of a run-in with an iceberg.

Double-row rivetted seams have about 40% of the strength of the steel plates. Flexing of the ship as it rode over the underwater portion of the iceberg have caused the plates in the side of the ship to attempt to move against their rivets. A movement of only 1/4 the diameter of a rivet (Titanic's were about 1 inch in diameter) can be enough to shear off the head. This is especially true in plates with punched rivet holes as on Titanic. That's why today the holes are punched undersize and then drilled to size. The rims of the hole (inside and out) are chamfered to eliminate the sharp corner.

My book, "Last Log" talks in detail about the strains on the plates in Titanic's vertical side. Also check the "White Paper" that Parks Stephenson and I prepared for SNAME.

-- David G. Brown
 
Jul 14, 2000
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David, I haven't heard about the Greek's greasing their pants. Is it a story that can be shared on the forum? BTW, my wife has found a nice Greek resaurant here in Charlotte. She wants us to try it out. I'm not familiar with Greek food, so it would be an adventure for me.

Is it possible for a ship's plates to seperate from the hull by shearing rivets, while the plate seams remain sealed together? Like the ship might try to 'shed its skin'?

Yuri
 
Apr 7, 2001
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David,

Thanks for the info. I have your book, but I don't have the white paper you and Parks wrote. I'll find that and then print it out. I must admit, I haven't read your work through its entirety, but then again, I am trying to read about 5 books at the same time.
happy.gif


Teri
 

Erik Wood

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I wouldn't call it shedding the plates. An open seam in my theory is caused by two other points within the ship pulling and pushing causing a seperation. Much like if you took to a piece of paper and pulled on both sides. The diffence being that the platting is reenforced on both ends.

Rivets are somewhat like the glue that hold the plates together. Rivets + Gravity that is. When you shear a rivet off or rivets off it causes a weekness in the plates that are being held together by those rivets. The rivet holes will begin to allow water in and a mili second later the plats will push in where the rivets used to be.

There is no doubt in my mind that open seams occured but they did not occur because of a sharp dagger like piece of ice as some suggest. There will be more on this in the future. This is another project that Dave Brown and I are working on.

Erik
 
Jul 14, 2000
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I've seen paintings by Ken Marshall that depict the stern section on the bottom of the ocean. You can see where the hull plating has seperated from the bulkheads and lies splayed outward in large sheets. So the plates remained riveted together, but have detached from the main sides of the ship. How is that possible? If the rivets that hold the plates to the bulkheads have failed, why didn't the individual plates, (10X40 I think they were), all come apart too. Whats holding the plates together?
Were the plates held together with rivets that didn't connect to the bulkheads? Did only the rivets that held the plates to the bulkheads fail?

Yuri
 

Kyrila Scully

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Apr 15, 2001
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Hi, Yuri,
Although Ken's paintings are excellent, and give us a general idea of the condition of the stern section, I believe he would be the first to tell you not to accept his paintings as fact like you would a photograph. I'm sure after his most recent excursions to the wreck site, his future paintings of the stern section will be different than the ones currently available, as he is getting new and better information with which to paint his favorite subject.
Bear in mind, it's dark down there, and even with artificial light, it's not easy to see every detail from the perspective by which Ken's paintings appear. From what I've seen of documentary films taken at the wreck site, the lights and cameras are pretty much on top of the ship by less than a few yards, and the lens does not allow the luxury of peripheral vision. Therefore, Ken's work, though magnificent, is produced with a degree of artistic license (and a lot of love and respect for the great ship).
I hope you find this helpful.

All the best,
Kyrila Scully
 
Oct 28, 2000
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Plates have seams, which are horizontal, and butt joints, which are vertical. My understanding that Titanic's butts had triple rivetting (3 rows) while the seams generally had 2. Any rivet counters know differently?

A double row of rivets has roughly 40% of the strength of the plating. It is my understanding that a triple row might reach 60%. So, the rivet joint can generally be expected to fail before the steel plates themselves.

Strain on the shell plating does not have to follow either the seams or the butts. Breaking apart, as Titanic did, must create some unusual strains throughout the fabric of the ship. However, it would be logical that double row joints would fail before triple row. That may explain some of the damage seen..although please don't quote me on this matter as I am not an expert.

Strain causes movement of the plates relative to each other. If that movement is small, everything stays together. Nasty things happen once the forces are large enough to "wiggle" the plates relative to each other. Failure of a single rivet is not necessarily catastrophic. Some Great Lakes ships that I researched for my upcoming "White Hurricane" book had large numbers of rivet heads sheared off in a single storm. From what I have read, trouble begins only when several neighboring rivets fail and a length of joint begins to open.

We know of some rivet joint problems in the bow section of Titanic. The damage and resulting water ingress reported by Barrett is consistent with some sort of open ("sprung" in sailor jarogon) seam. There is a a real possibility the mail storge room on the orlop was flooded by another open seam and not by water rising from hold #3 below. It is logical to see similar problems, but on a larger scale, in the stern section.

-- David G. Brown
 
Jan 5, 2001
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This quote will be good for the record. I’ve only just found this thread!


Quote:

‘The seams of the bottom plating are double riveted and of the topside plating treble and quadruple riveted. The butts of the bottom plating are overlapped and quadruple riveted, as are also the butts of the side plating, except…topside shell and doublings.’

Shipbuilder 1911 ‘Special Number.





Best regards,

Mark.
 

Dave Hudson

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So what's the verdict?

When are we gonna go, who's going, and how long is it gonna be?

I'm still pushin for February 18-22.

Excitedly,

David
 

Erik Wood

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My suggestion is that we push for a start of the 20th and use the weekend and everybody hit the road on the 24th. Of the Feburary.

I like it, I can do it, so that is the date. Details to be worked out in the coming months.

Erik
 

Erik Wood

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Remeber that we start bright and early on the 20th. So that is a be here by the 20th.

Eri
 

Erik Wood

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Everything is still a go for the 20th to the 24th. I would advise any and all who come to bring transcripts, all blueprints a nautical dictionary a open mind coffey and if you smoke a pipe that too. I may be hobbling with a cane but I will be around and in good enough to talk about this.

The events or discussions are going to vary from day to day depending on what is covered or not covered in the previous day.

I will be handing out a little paper about what I think and why. From there it is my hope to go through frame by frame and nail some things down (or at least come reasonably close) If everybody is good I may even provide donuts and may take you all out to dinner for putting up with three days of my squawking. The meeting place has yet to be determined and will depend largely on how many attend. What I would like to do is have everybody who wants to come or will be coming and is fairly sure that they are coming to email me privatly and I will discussing some other options as far as hotels in the area that are good and cheap.

There shouldn't be a need for a rental car I don't think. I have a 7 passenger van with room for baggage. If needs be my wife could also drive her Jeep. I will provide transportation to and from the airport. If you have any questions let me know here or privatly and I will answer them.

Erik
 

Dave Hudson

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Apr 25, 2001
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Soooo....what's goin on you guys? Are we still going on those dates? The deadline for getting cheap tickets is coming up. Are we doing it?

David
 
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