A Hypothesis of Times Gone Wrong


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As Sam already stated the chronometer when recovered looks nothing like in later photographs.
In the photographs it was simply "faked" by placing the hand clocks to show a time.
 
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sucks they would do that and claim the clock stopped at that time
"They" didn't claim anything about when the clock stopped. "They" simply put the hands back on the dial when it was restored. It is only some people here who are looking at the position of the hands after restoration and drawing erroneous conclusions as to what that implies about the time on the chronometer when it became inundated. An actual photograph of the recovered chronometer from the 1996 expedition before it was restored was found in a booklet for the 1998 Titanic Exhibition in Zürich, Switzerland. The chronometer itself was not put on display at that time. We talked about this in our article, "Time and Again - Titanic's Final Hours" that we made available on-line for quite some time. (It is now part of Titanic Solving the Mysteries by Bill Wormstedt, Mark Chirnside, Ioannis Georgiou, Samuel Halpern, Tad Fitch, Steve Hall, J. Kent Layton; 2019.)
A picture taken of the page from the 1998 booklet is below:
1602791479325.png
 
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Cam Houseman

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"They" didn't claim anything about when the clock stopped. "They" simply put the hands back on the dial when it was restored. It is only some people here who are looking at the position of the hands after restoration and drawing erroneous conclusions as to what that implies about the time on the chronometer when it became inundated. An actual photograph of the recovered chronometer from the 1996 expedition before it was restored was found in a booklet for the 1998 Titanic Exhibition in Zürich, Switzerland. The chronometer itself was not put on display at that time. We talked about this in our article, "Time and Again - Titanic's Final Hours" that we made available on-line for quite some time. (It is now part of Titanic Solving the Mysteries by Bill Wormstedt, Mark Chirnside, Ioannis Georgiou, Samuel Halpern, Tad Fitch, Steve Hall, J. Kent Layton; 2019.)
A picture taken of the page from the 1998 booklet is below:
View attachment 72501
oh, thanks for the correction Sam. Sorry about that!
 

Jim Currie

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As Sam already stated the chronometer when recovered looks nothing like in later photographs.
In the photographs it was simply "faked" by placing the hand clocks to show a time.
So why does the time shown match the ship time of sinking as per the watch of Annie Robinson?
"They" didn't claim anything about when the clock stopped. "They" simply put the hands back on the dial when it was restored. It is only some people here who are looking at the position of the hands after restoration and drawing erroneous conclusions as to what that implies about the time on the chronometer when it became inundated. An actual photograph of the recovered chronometer from the 1996 expedition before it was restored was found in a booklet for the 1998 Titanic Exhibition in Zürich, Switzerland. The chronometer itself was not put on display at that time. We talked about this in our article, "Time and Again - Titanic's Final Hours" that we made available on-line for quite some time. (It is now part of Titanic Solving the Mysteries by Bill Wormstedt, Mark Chirnside, Ioannis Georgiou, Samuel Halpern, Tad Fitch, Steve Hall, J. Kent Layton; 2019.)
A picture taken of the page from the 1998 booklet is below:
View attachment 72501
Why does the time on the post booklet restoration match the EST that would have been on it if it kept EST and there had been a partial clock change before impact?
As for the article you refer to, it is full of supposition and guesswork and dismisses sworn evidence which does not fit a predetermined conclusion. It is in direct opposition to those who examined the witnesses in the USA. all of whom subscribed to a partial clock change, So the whipping boy, poor old Boxhall gave a difference of 1 hour 33 minutes... he was 5 minutes out. So what? He knew there was a 5 minute difference between Standard time and Solar time at New York and Washington... so he got it wrong, but so did every sailor in the US Hydrographic Office and the Senate Committee because they used it. If I remember correctly, it was actually corrected by a Senator who said the difference was 4 minutes plus. In fact, a partial clock change would have given a difference of 1 hour 38 or 39 minutes..( as I am told used by the Limit of Liability hearings) both exactly 5 or 6 minutes difference from the answer given by Boxhall.
Passenger Col. Gracie gave you a ship time of midnight, not 11-40 pm, he was couple of minutes out. Young Collins gave you a full set back time of 11-15pm which is partial set back time of 12-03am or 4 (but he was a silly boy who didn't know anything). The third Officer said he was within a few minutes of Watch time when Boxhall called him. But you ignore that in favour of the mans later remark about not having time for a clock change. Despite the fact that the same man had only a partial change to make when he did go on duty and would not have known if the first part of the change had been made when he was called by Boxhall.
Then you quote a man who actually offers evidence of a clock change without being asked and gives a time without making such a change, all of which is proof of nothing.
Most incomprehensible, is your complete dismissal of the evidence of the Lookouts who very clearly tell us that the Watches changed "in the fullness of time" and at Midnight, 20 minutes after impact. That Midnight had to be the second of three... (1).12 hours after Noon April 14. or (2) Log Book Midnight which was 12 hours 24 minutes after Noon April,14 or (3) Log Book start of April 15, 12 hours 47 minutes after April 14, 1912.
 
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As for the article you refer to, it is full of supposition and guesswork and dismisses sworn evidence which does not fit a predetermined conclusion.
There was no dismissal of evidence in the article that was written. Everything was addressed. But you, of course, know more than anyone else, including those where there. Sorry if the evidence from the bottom of the Atlantic proves that one cannot place any credibility or meaning to the time shown after it went through the restoration process.
 

Jim Currie

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There was no dismissal of evidence in the article that was written. Everything was addressed. But you, of course, know more than anyone else, including those where there. Sorry if the evidence from the bottom of the Atlantic proves that one cannot place any credibility or meaning to the time shown after it went through the restoration process.
No Sam, I don't know "more than anyone else" but I sure as heck know as much as anyone else on this site about how a British ship is run. However unlike those who know less than me about how such a ship is run, or who refuse to concede a single point, I don't have to do much guessing or speculating.
 

B-rad

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Hello Brad, a most detailed bit of work if I may say so. Well done!

One or three points if I may.

(A) While the evidence of passengers must not be completely discounted, it should be clearly understood that clock changes on a ship only directly effected the working hours of a single group - those who were on duty during the period the change was made. Consequently, since these were completed between the hours of 10 pm and 6 am the following morning, only those on duty at that time would either work more minutes going West or work fewer minutes going East. On Titanic, those effected were, besides a few Catering staff and the wireless operators, the Deck and Engine crew on duty during the 8 to Midnight and Midnight to 4 am Watches.
Day workers, like passengers, only gained or lost sleep. Normally, the former would adjust personal time pieces in the late evening before going to sleep. The latter were a mixture.
Consequently, if you can find any member of the above mentioned Watches who were either waiting to go on or off duty at the time of impact with the iceberg or did go on or off duty shortly after it, then you have proof of a partial clock change.

(B) The evidence of young John Collins who was on his first trip to sea has been completely dismissed, as has the evidence of veteran stewardess Annie Robinson. Both of these crew members were day workers who would gain an extra 47 minutes sleep due the the planned clock change. Both of them had April 15 time on their personal time pieces.
Young John, stated that the time of impact on his bedside clock was 11-15 am. He was very precise about it - even compensating for the inaccuracy of his clock.
Annie was in a lifeboat watching Titanic sink, when the vessel disappeared, she noted the time of 1-40 am. on her watch.
These times indicate that Titanic was afloat for 2 hours and 25 minutes, not the popularly accepted interval of 2 hours 40 minutes... a difference of 15 minutes. However, if Annie had April 15 time, then Titanic sank at 2-27 am April 14 time, not 2-20 am April 14 time as popularly accepted a difference of 21 minutes.
Not only that, young John's evidence indicates that impact with the ice berg took place at 12-02 am April 14 time. However, if the clock had been partially set back by 23 minutes a couple of minutes before impact. then the time of impact seen on a partially adjusted clock would have been
11-39 pm
The foregoing evidence has been completely buried by researchers or loftily dismissed by them as inconsequential.

(C). At the time of impact the Lookout reliefs, Hogg and Evans believed it was close to One Bell... the 15 minute warning before change of Watches. They subsequently climbed to the Crow; Nest and relieved Lookouts Fleet and Lee and that was 20 minutes after impact.
(D) Just before the impact, AB Osman was waiting for one bell - the fifteen minute warning before change of Watches. Watches were due to change at Midnight, 12 hours 23 minutes after Noon April 14. This agrees within a minute of the timing of young John Collins.

(D) Let's consider 5th Officer Lowe, who to me, is one of the most reliable witnesses.
Lowe was tasked with 6th Officer Moody to compile Propeller Slip Tables. For this he needed regular updates on engine revolutions and a ship's positions at each update time. Fixed positions for the latter were preferable but in the absence of them, he would use Dead Reckoning positions based on Patent Log readings. That was where he got his 20.95 knots speed from noon number - the 6pm patent log reading which as you and others suggest was a misinterpreted 162 miles. I completely reject that. here is why.
Lowe got his speed from the Patent Log when he came on duty at 6 pm.
If his calculated average speed based on that was 20.95 miles, then the patent log would have read 125.7 miles at 6 pm and 10 minutes earlier, at 5-50 pm when the ship turned, would have read 122.2 nautical miles, not 126 nautical miles. You should know that designated Navigators worked very precisely in knots and tenths thereof.
So where did the 162 miles come from? I suggest to you it was a mix-up of memory on the part of 5th Officer Lowe.
When Lightoller returned to the bridge after dinners at 7-30 pm that evening he took evening sights... 6 of them. These would occupy at least 5 minutes of time and would have barely been finished by 7-40 pm. During that 10 minutes, Lowe would have calculated a Dead Reckoning position to be used in the calculation of Lightoller's sights. To do this, he would call aft and get the aft QM to read the Patent Log at that time. This was standard practice then and for the next 50 years.
If Fifth Officer Low was correct with his average speed up to 6pm, then if the ship speed had started to increase after the turn, which we know it did, and, if at the time of reading the log it read 162 , then from 5-50 pm until the reading for DR sights was taken, she had covered a distance 36.3 miles. If the reading was taken at say 7-40 pm when Lightoller had finished his evening sights, then the average speed from the turn had increased to almost 21.5 knots.
A speed less than 22 knots up to evening sights is verified by 2nd Officer Boxhall who, when working his distress position used a speed of 22 knots from evening sights because he believed that the flat calm weather would allow the ship to make her maximum possible speed due to minimised propeller slip.
We know that the speed from 8 pm was 22.5 knots and the patent log read 260 miles at 11-40 pm, time of impact. if there had not been a clock change, then the run time from Noon to impact was 11hours 40 minutes and Titanic would have covered 3.6 x 22.5 = 81 miles in the last 3 hours 40 minutes of that time, leaving 179 miles to have been covered in the remaining 8 hours Noon to 8 pm. This produces an average speed of 22.375 knots from Noon to 8 pm If that were so, why on God's Green Earth would 2nd Officer Boxhall use an average speed of only 22 knots to calculate his distress position if, from his calculation of Lightoller's sights, he knew, for absolute certain, the exact distance from Noon sights to 7-30 pm sights and consequently, the exact average speed between these 2 times?
First of all, with all due respect everyone, this thread is about my paper.... lol (just kidding!)

Sorry for the delay in getting back with you Jim on your points. I wanted to make sure I had enough time to overlook them and give them the respectful thought they deserve. I will admit that I cannot find solutions to all you presented, and so the puzzle continues!!!

I do believe though that it works both ways. When I figure a time change taking place, it places other testimony in question, just as much as it does figure that no time change took place. That’s why I believe its important to hear sides. However, I will also admit that I am not one who will eagerly try to persuade anyone’s point of view - if my work doesn’t convince anyone then I’m not going to be able to do it any better elsewhere...

  • A
I completely agree with. I do believe that, as stated in my paper, that the argument via times displayed within the testimony allow for various interpretations.
  • B
John Collins: States he got off at 9 o’clock and went to bed at 9:45. Woke up at 11:15.

If the clock Collin read had a 23min change on his clock and 11:40 represented none adjusted time, then his clock should have read 11:17pm.

If Collin had a full amount of time adjusted (47min), and 11:40 represented a partial clock change (12:03 none adjusted time), then Collin’s clock should have read 11:16pm.

It would make sense that Collin had a fully adjusted clock, unless his shift started before 6am and it was partially adjusted due to IMM’s regulations that the clock could be fully set back up to 6am??? But then who would set his clock the other 24mins? Overall, toshay!

Annie Robison: States that the ship sank at 1:40am adjusted time. If the ship sank at 2:20, then a clock with a full time change should read 1:33am, 7min earlier then 1:40 – which combined with the 40min from 1:40 to 2:20 is the full 47min time change.

Robinsion does not state at what time the collision occurred, so we have no basis to judge the amount of time the sinking took place for her. One could easily say that the collision for her occurred at 10:53 April 14th, none adjusted time, and they would be just as right as saying her collision occurred at 11:16.
  • C
Fleet: He states that he remained in the nest, “About a quarter of an hour to 20 minutes after,” the collision. I tried to address this in my paper, but I could not.

Fleet also says that he reported the berg, “Just after seven bells”, which is 11:30. Even with a partial setback of 23 minutes, there would still have been only one 11:30, and that was before midnight unadjusted time.

11:30pm11:37pm11:37pm
11:30pm11:37pm12pm


Then we have this bit of testimony:

Senator SMITH: How long after you had taken your place in the crow's nest?

Mr. FLEET: The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest.

Senator SMITH: How long a watch did you have?

Mr. FLEET: Two hours; but the time was going to be put back - that watch.

Senator SMITH: The time was to be set back?

Mr. FLEET: Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH: Did that alter your time?

Mr. FLEET: We were to get about 2 hours and 20 minutes.

So, did he get the extra time, or was it to be gotten?

Hogg: He says, “I waked up, at 20 minutes to 12, with the confusion in the forecastle. I rushed up on the deck, and I saw there was not much confusion on deck, and I went below again, with some of my shipmates. I asked the time, then, of my mate Evans, and he said, ‘It is a quarter to 12. We will get dressed and get ready to go on the lookout.’”

If Fleet was relieved 15 to 20 mins after impact then we have 1 of two scenarios:

Scenario 1 – No Clock Change – Collision happens 11:40pm, Fleet relieved 11:55-12pm (23 to 28min early)

Scenario 2 – 23 min clock change – Collision happens 11:40 adjusted time, or 12:03 none adjusted time. Fleet is relieved at 11:55-12pm.

If Evans had adjusted his clock back at midnight, after the collision – having occurred at 11:40 none adjusted time, then the none adjusted clock would read 12:08.
  • D
Osman, “was waiting for one bell, which they strike, one bell just before the quarter of the hour, before the four hours, when you get a call to relieve; and I heard three bells strike, and I thought there was a ship ahead.”

Was he waiting for anther 5minutes to pass or 28mins to pass?
  • E
Lowe – I believe we touched on this already, and my landlubber-ness.

As far as Gracie, I will leave that, as he is part of another project I’ve been working on and I would hate to spoil the goods.

Overall, more questions than answers, like always. Thanks again!
 
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First of all, with all due respect everyone, this thread is about my paper.... lol (just kidding!)

Sorry for the delay in getting back with you Jim on your points. I wanted to make sure I had enough time to overlook them and give them the respectful thought they deserve. I will admit that I cannot find solutions to all you presented, and so the puzzle continues!!!

I do believe though that it works both ways. When I figure a time change taking place, it places other testimony in question, just as much as it does figure that no time change took place. That’s why I believe its important to hear sides. However, I will also admit that I am not one who will eagerly try to persuade anyone’s point of view - if my work doesn’t convince anyone then I’m not going to be able to do it any better elsewhere...

  • A
I completely agree with. I do believe that, as stated in my paper, that the argument via times displayed within the testimony allow for various interpretations.
  • B
John Collins: States he got off at 9 o’clock and went to bed at 9:45. Woke up at 11:15.

If the clock Collin read had a 23min change on his clock and 11:40 represented none adjusted time, then his clock should have read 11:17pm.

If Collin had a full amount of time adjusted (47min), and 11:40 represented a partial clock change (12:03 none adjusted time), then Collin’s clock should have read 11:16pm.

It would make sense that Collin had a fully adjusted clock, unless his shift started before 6am and it was partially adjusted due to IMM’s regulations that the clock could be fully set back up to 6am??? But then who would set his clock the other 24mins? Overall, toshay!

Annie Robison: States that the ship sank at 1:40am adjusted time. If the ship sank at 2:20, then a clock with a full time change should read 1:33am, 7min earlier then 1:40 – which combined with the 40min from 1:40 to 2:20 is the full 47min time change.

Robinsion does not state at what time the collision occurred, so we have no basis to judge the amount of time the sinking took place for her. One could easily say that the collision for her occurred at 10:53 April 14th, none adjusted time, and they would be just as right as saying her collision occurred at 11:16.
  • C
Fleet: He states that he remained in the nest, “About a quarter of an hour to 20 minutes after,” the collision. I tried to address this in my paper, but I could not.

Fleet also says that he reported the berg, “Just after seven bells”, which is 11:30. Even with a partial setback of 23 minutes, there would still have been only one 11:30, and that was before midnight unadjusted time.

11:30pm11:37pm11:37pm
11:30pm11:37pm12pm


Then we have this bit of testimony:

Senator SMITH: How long after you had taken your place in the crow's nest?

Mr. FLEET: The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest.

Senator SMITH: How long a watch did you have?

Mr. FLEET: Two hours; but the time was going to be put back - that watch.

Senator SMITH: The time was to be set back?

Mr. FLEET: Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH: Did that alter your time?

Mr. FLEET: We were to get about 2 hours and 20 minutes.

So, did he get the extra time, or was it to be gotten?

Hogg: He says, “I waked up, at 20 minutes to 12, with the confusion in the forecastle. I rushed up on the deck, and I saw there was not much confusion on deck, and I went below again, with some of my shipmates. I asked the time, then, of my mate Evans, and he said, ‘It is a quarter to 12. We will get dressed and get ready to go on the lookout.’”

If Fleet was relieved 15 to 20 mins after impact then we have 1 of two scenarios:

Scenario 1 – No Clock Change – Collision happens 11:40pm, Fleet relieved 11:55-12pm (23 to 28min early)

Scenario 2 – 23 min clock change – Collision happens 11:40 adjusted time, or 12:03 none adjusted time. Fleet is relieved at 11:55-12pm.

If Evans had adjusted his clock back at midnight, after the collision – having occurred at 11:40 none adjusted time, then the none adjusted clock would read 12:08.
  • D
Osman, “was waiting for one bell, which they strike, one bell just before the quarter of the hour, before the four hours, when you get a call to relieve; and I heard three bells strike, and I thought there was a ship ahead.”

Was he waiting for anther 5minutes to pass or 28mins to pass?
  • E
Lowe – I believe we touched on this already, and my landlubber-ness.

As far as Gracie, I will leave that, as he is part of another project I’ve been working on and I would hate to spoil the goods.

Overall, more questions than answers, like always. Thanks again!
You've done an excellent job researching this. But your right about it being about your paper. I probably should have asked my recovered clock question in another thread. Didn't think it would cause a veer off. But at least it didn't veer off to how far the Californian was.....again. Anyway...excellent job on the time problem..
 
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Jim Currie

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First of all, with all due respect everyone, this thread is about my paper.... lol (just kidding!)

Sorry for the delay in getting back with you Jim on your points. I wanted to make sure I had enough time to overlook them and give them the respectful thought they deserve. I will admit that I cannot find solutions to all you presented, and so the puzzle continues!!!

I do believe though that it works both ways. When I figure a time change taking place, it places other testimony in question, just as much as it does figure that no time change took place. That’s why I believe its important to hear sides. However, I will also admit that I am not one who will eagerly try to persuade anyone’s point of view - if my work doesn’t convince anyone then I’m not going to be able to do it any better elsewhere...

  • A
I completely agree with. I do believe that, as stated in my paper, that the argument via times displayed within the testimony allow for various interpretations.
  • B
John Collins: States he got off at 9 o’clock and went to bed at 9:45. Woke up at 11:15.

If the clock Collin read had a 23min change on his clock and 11:40 represented none adjusted time, then his clock should have read 11:17pm.

If Collin had a full amount of time adjusted (47min), and 11:40 represented a partial clock change (12:03 none adjusted time), then Collin’s clock should have read 11:16pm.

It would make sense that Collin had a fully adjusted clock, unless his shift started before 6am and it was partially adjusted due to IMM’s regulations that the clock could be fully set back up to 6am??? But then who would set his clock the other 24mins? Overall, toshay!

Annie Robison: States that the ship sank at 1:40am adjusted time. If the ship sank at 2:20, then a clock with a full time change should read 1:33am, 7min earlier then 1:40 – which combined with the 40min from 1:40 to 2:20 is the full 47min time change.

Robinsion does not state at what time the collision occurred, so we have no basis to judge the amount of time the sinking took place for her. One could easily say that the collision for her occurred at 10:53 April 14th, none adjusted time, and they would be just as right as saying her collision occurred at 11:16.
  • C
Fleet: He states that he remained in the nest, “About a quarter of an hour to 20 minutes after,” the collision. I tried to address this in my paper, but I could not.

Fleet also says that he reported the berg, “Just after seven bells”, which is 11:30. Even with a partial setback of 23 minutes, there would still have been only one 11:30, and that was before midnight unadjusted time.

11:30pm11:37pm11:37pm
11:30pm11:37pm12pm


Then we have this bit of testimony:

Senator SMITH: How long after you had taken your place in the crow's nest?

Mr. FLEET: The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest.

Senator SMITH: How long a watch did you have?

Mr. FLEET: Two hours; but the time was going to be put back - that watch.

Senator SMITH: The time was to be set back?

Mr. FLEET: Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH: Did that alter your time?

Mr. FLEET: We were to get about 2 hours and 20 minutes.

So, did he get the extra time, or was it to be gotten?

Hogg: He says, “I waked up, at 20 minutes to 12, with the confusion in the forecastle. I rushed up on the deck, and I saw there was not much confusion on deck, and I went below again, with some of my shipmates. I asked the time, then, of my mate Evans, and he said, ‘It is a quarter to 12. We will get dressed and get ready to go on the lookout.’”

If Fleet was relieved 15 to 20 mins after impact then we have 1 of two scenarios:

Scenario 1 – No Clock Change – Collision happens 11:40pm, Fleet relieved 11:55-12pm (23 to 28min early)

Scenario 2 – 23 min clock change – Collision happens 11:40 adjusted time, or 12:03 none adjusted time. Fleet is relieved at 11:55-12pm.

If Evans had adjusted his clock back at midnight, after the collision – having occurred at 11:40 none adjusted time, then the none adjusted clock would read 12:08.
  • D
Osman, “was waiting for one bell, which they strike, one bell just before the quarter of the hour, before the four hours, when you get a call to relieve; and I heard three bells strike, and I thought there was a ship ahead.”

Was he waiting for anther 5minutes to pass or 28mins to pass?
  • E
Lowe – I believe we touched on this already, and my landlubber-ness.

As far as Gracie, I will leave that, as he is part of another project I’ve been working on and I would hate to spoil the goods.

Overall, more questions than answers, like always. Thanks again!
Sorry, Brad for the veer-off. I'll respond to your above post as follows:

if a sequence of events do not seem to chronologically match, you are right, we have a problem.

Young Collins, like 99.9% of Day workers would set his personal time piece back the full amount. This was done for one simple reason, and that was to make sure that he did not go to work too early or too late the next morning i.e. by making sure that he was called at the proper time...1 Bell... 15 minutes before he was due on duty in the kitchens,
If the clock was partially set back 24 minute at midnight April 14, and say the impact took place at that moment. then an untouched clock would read Midnight, a fully set back one would read 11-13 am and the one that had been set back at that moment would read 11-36 pm. Applying this to Collins time we get

Time of Impact = Collins 11-15 pm April 15 time + 24
Time of Impact = Partial change time 11-39pm + 23
Time of Impact = Unchanged time 12-02 am April 14 time. (Time on the watch of Colonel Gracie)

Not only that, but the run time from Noon would be exactly 12 hours 02 minutes and, because the patent log read 260 nautical miles at impact, the average speed would be 21.6 knots. That average speed alone would back up the evidence of the three Navigators Pitman, Boxhall and Lowe Pitman gave a speed of 21.5 knots up to 7-30 pm sights.
Boxhall used an estimated average speed of 22 knots from 7-30 pm because of the minimum propeller slip due to flat calm conditions *he must have made an extra allowance to a lower speed found by calculation of the 7-30 pm sights)
5th Officer Lowe very specifically stated the ship averaged 20.95 knots from Noon until 6 pm.

As for the Lookouts: it is inconceivable that one Watchkeeper would make such a mistake... that two of them would do so is beyond belief.

Similarly, AB Osman was like the others on a 4 hour on-4 hour off rota. There is no way he would have made such a mistake. Additionally his Watch mate, Said exactly the same thing

Here is another one for you Brad. This time, Steward Alfred Crawford:
"I was on watch until 12 o'clock, and I was waiting for my relief to come up. I was to be relieved at 12 o'clock. I heard the crash, and I went out on the outer deck and saw the iceberg floating alongside."

Here's another bit of evidence for you to ponder, Brad. This from Lookout Fleet again.

"2488a. Did you get any orders to go on the boat deck?
- No, but I heard the boatswain call the other watch.
2492. Not only those that were on deck and on duty, but those below off duty?
- Yes, the watch that had just gone below.

2493. That would be at 12 o'clock; they had just gone below?
- Yes.


Incidentally, in your quote, Fleet stated "The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest." If there had been no clock change and the time was 11-40 pm then Fleet would still have 20 + 24 = 44 minutes to serve up in the nest. But he only served another 20 minutes up there before he was relieved.

Cheers!
 
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Cam Houseman

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Sorry, Brad for the veer-off. I'll respond to your above post as follows:

if a sequence of events do not seem to chronologically match, you are right, we have a problem.

Young Collins, like 99.9% of Day workers would set his personal time piece back the full amount. This was done for one simple reason, and that was to make sure that he did not go to work too early or too late the next morning i.e. by making sure that he was called at the proper time...1 Bell... 15 minutes before he was due on duty in the kitchens,
If the clock was partially set back 24 minute at midnight April 14, and say the impact took place at that moment. then an untouched clock would read Midnight, a fully set back one would read 11-13 am and the one that had been set back at that moment would read 11-36 pm. Applying this to Collins time we get

Time of Impact = Collins 11-15 pm April 15 time + 24
Time of Impact = Partial change time 11-39pm + 23
Time of Impact = Unchanged time 12-02 am April 14 time. (Time on the watch of Colonel Gracie)

Not only that, but the run time from Noon would be exactly 12 hours 02 minutes and, because the patent log read 260 nautical miles at impact, the average speed would be 21.6 knots. That average speed alone would back up the evidence of the three Navigators Pitman, Boxhall and Lowe Pitman gave a speed of 21.5 knots up to 7-30 pm sights.
Boxhall used an estimated average speed of 22 knots from 7-30 pm because of the minimum propeller slip due to flat calm conditions *he must have made an extra allowance to a lower speed found by calculation of the 7-30 pm sights)
5th Officer Lowe very specifically stated the ship averaged 20.95 knots from Noon until 6 pm.

As for the Lookouts: it is inconceivable that one Watchkeeper would make such a mistake... that two of them would do so is beyond belief.

Similarly, AB Osman was like the others on a 4 hour on-4 hour off rota. There is no way he would have made such a mistake. Additionally his Watch mate, Said exactly the same thing

Here is another one for you Brad. This time, Steward Alfred Crawford:
"I was on watch until 12 o'clock, and I was waiting for my relief to come up. I was to be relieved at 12 o'clock. I heard the crash, and I went out on the outer deck and saw the iceberg floating alongside."

Here's another bit of evidence for you to ponder, Brad. This from Lookout Fleet again.

"2488a. Did you get any orders to go on the boat deck?
- No, but I heard the boatswain call the other watch.
2492. Not only those that were on deck and on duty, but those below off duty?
- Yes, the watch that had just gone below.

2493. That would be at 12 o'clock; they had just gone below?
- Yes.


Incidentally, in your quote, Fleet stated "The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest." If there had been no clock change and the time was 11-40 pm then Fleet would still have 20 + 24 = 44 minutes to serve up in the nest. But he only served another 20 minutes up there before he was relieved.

Cheers!
Nice analysis Jim
Um....Ok Lads, lets not turn this into another argument, we should be giving B-Rad a virtual pat on the back for his work, not squabbling as we usually do.

We're just one big family who can't agree on anything. Hope y'all have been having a good day
 
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Jim Currie

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Apr 16, 2008
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Sorry, Brad for the veer-off. I'll respond to your above post as follows:

if a sequence of events do not seem to chronologically match, you are right, we have a problem.

Young Collins, like 99.9% of Day workers would set his personal time piece back the full amount. This was done for one simple reason, and that was to make sure that he did not go to work too early or too late the next morning i.e. by making sure that he was called at the proper time...1 Bell... 15 minutes before he was due on duty in the kitchens,
If the clock was partially set back 24 minute at midnight April 14, and say the impact took place at that moment. then an untouched clock would read Midnight, a fully set back one would read 11-13 am and the one that had been set back at that moment would read 11-36 pm. Applying this to Collins time we get

Time of Impact = Collins 11-15 pm April 15 time + 24
Time of Impact = Partial change time 11-39pm + 23
Time of Impact = Unchanged time 12-02 am April 14 time. (Time on the watch of Colonel Gracie)

Not only that, but the run time from Noon would be exactly 12 hours 02 minutes and, because the patent log read 260 nautical miles at impact, the average speed would be 21.6 knots. That average speed alone would back up the evidence of the three Navigators Pitman, Boxhall and Lowe Pitman gave a speed of 21.5 knots up to 7-30 pm sights.
Boxhall used an estimated average speed of 22 knots from 7-30 pm because of the minimum propeller slip due to flat calm conditions *he must have made an extra allowance to a lower speed found by calculation of the 7-30 pm sights)
5th Officer Lowe very specifically stated the ship averaged 20.95 knots from Noon until 6 pm.

As for the Lookouts: it is inconceivable that one Watchkeeper would make such a mistake... that two of them would do so is beyond belief.

Similarly, AB Osman was like the others on a 4 hour on-4 hour off rota. There is no way he would have made such a mistake. Additionally his Watch mate, Said exactly the same thing

Here is another one for you Brad. This time, Steward Alfred Crawford:
"I was on watch until 12 o'clock, and I was waiting for my relief to come up. I was to be relieved at 12 o'clock. I heard the crash, and I went out on the outer deck and saw the iceberg floating alongside."

Here's another bit of evidence for you to ponder, Brad. This from Lookout Fleet again.

"2488a. Did you get any orders to go on the boat deck?
- No, but I heard the boatswain call the other watch.
2492. Not only those that were on deck and on duty, but those below off duty?
- Yes, the watch that had just gone below.

2493. That would be at 12 o'clock; they had just gone below?
- Yes.


Incidentally, in your quote, Fleet stated "The watch was nearly over. I had done the best part of the watch up in the nest." If there had been no clock change and the time was 11-40 pm then Fleet would still have 20 + 24 = 44 minutes to serve up in the nest. But he only served another 20 minutes up there before he was relieved.

Cheers!
Here's another one, Brad, This from the sworn affidavit of passeneger Emily Ryerson:
At the time of collision I was awake and heard the engines stop, but felt no jar. My husband was asleep, so I rang and asked the steward, Bishop, what was the matter. He said, "There is talk of an iceberg, ma'am, and they have stopped, not to run into it." I told him to keep me informed if there were any orders. It was bitterly cold, so I put on a warm wrapper and looked out the window (we were in the large cabins on the B deck, very far aft) and saw the stars shining and a calm sea, but heard no noise. It was 12 o'clock;)
 
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