A question about deaths in lifeboats

Mar 16, 2017
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In a discussion on another forum, the question was raised of how many people, if any, died in the lifeboats as a result of the cold air, or due to being splashed with seawater. I've read that Carpathia buried four to six survivors at sea, but haven't found any information on causes of death. And of course not all those who died in the boats necessarily were taken aboard Carpathia.

If anyone has any sources on this, I'd appreciate the information. Thanks in advance to all.
 

Harland Duzen

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The official (and current) death toll from the lifeboats is 4 people. 2 crew and 2 Passengers:

Lifeboat 4 - Seaman William Henry Lyons (Hypothermia)
Lifeboat 4 - Stewart Sidney Conrad Siebert (Hypothermia)
Lifeboat 14 - Passenger William Fisher Hoyt (Hypothermia)
Collapsable D - Passenger Frederick Maxfield Hoyt (Exhaustion and Hypothermia)
 
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vonfrieddorf

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Jun 10, 2016
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Mr. Tyne, I suggest your source is mistaken regarding the death of Frederick Hoyt - perhaps he was confused with casualty William Hoyt (apparently no relation). Mr. Hoyt survived, as a quick check of his biography here will confirm.

The fourth body belonged to David Livshin, a third-class passenger traveling under a ticket purchased by one Abraham Harmer. Officer Lightoller transferred the body from Collapsible B when Lifeboat 12 took off the survivors.
 

Harland Duzen

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Sorry, your right. I could't remember it and look it up on Wikipedia. I delete the previous post.

NEW UPDATED LIST:

Lifeboat 4 - William Henry Lyons
Lifeboat 4 - Stewart Sidney Conrad Siebert
Lifeboat 14 - William Fisher Hoyt
Collapsable B - David Livshin
 
Mar 18, 2008
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The only other deaths happened aboard Collapsibe A and B. As most fall into the sea or were threw overboard (this was done at Collapsible A) we can not say exactly how many and who. In case of collapsible A we knew a few names like the Lindell couple, Keefe & Beatie (Edith Evans might be too as there is mentioned she made it into the boat too) but other will remain unknown.
 
A

Aaron_2016

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Lightoller said he spoke to wireless operator Phillips on the upturned boat shortly before he died and Harold Bride saw his body and believed he was taken aboard the Carpathia and buried at sea.


Harold Bride - Exclusive account to Mr. Marconi and published in the New York Times.

"One man was dead. I passed him and went up the ladder, although my feet pained terribly. The dead man was Phillips. He had died on the raft from exposure and cold, I guess. He had been all in from work before the wreck came. He stood his ground until the crisis had passed, and then he collapsed, I guess. But I hardly thought that then. I didn't think much of anything. I tried the rope ladder. My feet pained terribly, but I got to the top and felt hands reaching out to me."


After his story was published he wrote a letter to the Marconi Company which was read at the US Inquiry.

"As you have probably heard, I got on the collapsible boat a second time, which was as I had left it, upturned. I called Phillips several times, but got no response, but learned later from several sources that he was on this boat and expired even before we were picked off by the Titanic's boat. I am told fright and exposure was the cause of his death. As far as I can find out, he was taken on board the Carpathia and buried at sea from her, though for some reason the bodies of those who had died were not identified before burial from the Carpathia, and so I can not vouch for the truth of this."


Harold Bride was questioned at the US Inquiry about Phillips' death.

Q - You say there were a number of people on the boat, on the bottom of the boat that was bottom-up when you got there?
A - Yes.
Q - Do you know any of them?
A - I heard afterwards that the senior operator was on board.
Q - Mr. Phillips?
A - Mr. Phillips.
Q - Was on the boat?
A - Yes; I heard so afterwards.
Q - He did not survive, however?
A - He did not survive.
Q - Do you know whether he died going from the Titanic to the Carpathia?
A - He died on the way; yes. He died on board the upturned boat.
Q - What became of his body?
A - As far as I know, it was taken on board the Carpathia and buried from the Carpathia.
Q - Buried at sea?
A - Buried from the Carpathia.


.
 
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Harland Duzen

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The problem we never truly know the official number of those who perished in or on the lifeboats due to it being pitch darkness, no-one knowing who else they were with in the boat and in the case of Collapsable B, no footrest meant anyone could just slip-off into the sea as gruesome as it sounds.

Officially found or known to have died in Lifeboats:

Lifeboat 4 - William Henry Lyons
Lifeboat 4 - Stewart Sidney Conrad Siebert
Lifeboat 14 - William Fisher Hoyt
Collapsable A - Edvard Benrgtsoon Lindell (Elin Gerda Lindell clutching boat's side)
Collapsable B - David Livshin

Believed to have been on Boat:
Collapsable B - Jack Phillips

What about the men found in Collapsable A by the Oceanic in May 1912?
 
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A

Aaron_2016

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He was on the collapsible with Lightoller who had a conversation with him before he died, and Bride witnessed his body as he approached the ladder to the Carpathia - "I passed him and went up the ladder." Bride also said - "Phillips ran aft and that was the last I ever saw of him alive." The next time he saw him he was sadly dead. The link you provided did not mention Bride's $1,000 account where he said he witnessed Phillips' body as he made his way up the ladder. I see no reason to doubt his word regarding the man's death.

When Lightoller published his book in the 1930's Harold Bride was not happy about the conversation which Lightoller said he had with Phillips' before he died.




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Mar 18, 2008
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Lightoller was mistaken.

So then what did happened to the body of Philips then? Only 4 bodies were taken aboard and buried later the day at sea none of them was Philips!
 
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Bonnell & Wick: "In addition to the people who had gotten into the life boats in the first place there were several others in them. These men had been picked up as they were swimming. They were weakened from the exposure, and four of them died on the Carpathia. These men were W. H. White [Hoyt] and Abraham Hornner [Harmer], passengers, and S. C. Sievert [Siebert], steward, and T. Lyons, sailor. They were wrapped in the stars and stripes and buried off the Carpathia Monday, returning to the sea from which they had been so vainly rescued."
Decatur Review & Washington Times, 19 April 1912
 

Harland Duzen

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Philips was never on collapsible B.
The Fate of Jack Phillips
I know there's controversy as to whether he was even on the boat so I said ''Believed'' not ''Definitely''

Lifeboat 4 - William Henry Lyons (Buried on Carpathia)
Lifeboat 4 - Stewart Sidney Conrad Siebert (Buried on Carpathia)
Lifeboat 14 - William Fisher Hoyt (Buried on Carpathia)
Collapsable A - Arthur O'Keefe (Buried on Oceanic)
Collapsable A - Thomson Beattie (Buried on Oceanic)
Collapsable A - Edvard Benrgtsoon Lindell (Elin Gerda Lindell clutching boat's side)
Collapsable A - Unknown Crew Member (Buried on Oceanic)
Collapsable B - David Livshin (Buried on Carpathia)
 
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Mar 16, 2017
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My thanks to all of you who replied, it is clear that a few people died on the boats, but very few compared to the number of people IN the boats. This was the question that was under discussion in the other board, and you've answered definitively.

Again, thanks.
 

L. Colombo

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Nov 22, 2012
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It should be pointed out that the men who died in boats 4 and 14 - Lyons, Siebert and Hoyt - were not on the lifeboats when they were launched, and did not die from being splashed with water, or due to cold air. All three were among the few people that were plucked from the water (Boats 4 and 14 being the only ones to go back and rescue some swimmers) and died in the lifeboats, after being rescued, from the effects of hypothermia incurred while in the water.
It is likely that more people died on Collapsibles A and B than Keefe, Beattie, Lindell and Livshin. From survivor statements and estimates that I recall it seems that at least six or seven people died in Collapsible A, maybe even twice as many, and some others died on Collapsible B, ranging from three-four to maybe ten. Most bodies were jettisoned during the night and therefore remain unidentified.
 

Harland Duzen

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L. Colombo, the list above shows where the bodies were found once the Carpathia arrived and began to pick up survivors, you can also update or modify the list I made above if you find concrete evidence of more people who sadly died.
 

L. Colombo

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For Collapsible A, it is known that thirteen (or so) people were rescued, but several survivors state that there were originally 20 or more peope in it (even up to 30), and the others died. This means that between seven and fifteen people, approximately, died in Collapsible A (I think the lower tally, maybe seven to ten, may be more accurate).

Letter written by Collapsible A survivor William Mellors to a friend in May 1912 (William J. Mellors):

I had been swimming for about 1 hour [of course, overestimated] altogether when I saw an object a little way off which turned out to be a collapsible boat with about 20 or thirty people clinging to it. I managed after a hard struggle to get on this and found that the sides were broken away and that she was well under water. After a time I saw some of the people gradually dropping down dead one at the time and we had to push their bodies off to keep the raft afloat. Every now and again we were all thrown into the water owing to the boat capsizing and when we climbed back I noticed there were less climbed on.

We suddenly noticed lights on the horizon which turned out to be the Carpathia and suddenly she turned round and went out of sight and we thought she had picked the other boats up and missed us. There were then several of our own boats in the distance and we were calling them for about two hours and they answered us back by flashing a green light and blowing whistles but would not put back to save us. There was then only ten or twelve of us left on the raft alive and there were five or six laying dead on the bottom. By this time I had become exhausted and had to let a man I had been holding up fall to the bottom of the raft but he was saved. Eventually we were picked up and taken to the Carpathia.

Another survivor from Collapsible A, George Alexander Lucien Rheims, stated that there were 18-20 people aboard, and that seven died. See George Alexander Lucien Rheims

Augustus Weikman, who also was on Collapsible A, thought that 28 people were on it, and 17 survived, which would mean eleven died. See Augustus Henry Weikman : Titanic Survivor | Mr Augustus Henry Weikman