Actual Number of 1st Class Women and Children Saved


Jun 12, 2004
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One discrepancy that irked me about James Cameron's version--a version that he claimed would be as authentic as possible--shows the "ghosts" of several 1st class women and at least one 1st class child (about 12 or 13) who supposedly died in the disaster.

Let's set this straight: there were four (4) 1st class women (Isham, Strauss, Evans, and Allison) and one 1st class child (Helen Louraine Allison, who was 2), making the total as five (5) 1st class females , and one (1) child who perished in the disaster.

Before anyone says anything, I realize that he would defend himself by saying that the passenger list is incomplete and inconsistent, so it is possible that there were more 1st class women and children there than those documented. But possible does not make fact. Over the years, several scholars have studied the list and have accounted for these discrepancies, and in the end, every single source comes up with the same total: 4 women and one child (5 females).

Is it possible that, like Rose, all of these may have been survivors who had died later, only to return in spirit to the their loved ones and friends at the wreck? It's possible, but the way that very last scene was handled, the specific conditions are either vague or ambiguous at best, leaving us to be confronted with an apparent falsehood.

What are your thoughts on this?

--Mark (Hoppy)
 
Jun 12, 2004
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By the way, the above commentary is not meant to offend anyone. I wanted to make it clear that I was speaking purely from a historical perspective--addressing facts as they are known and understood. I have no intention of condemning James Cameron's movie-making, as I actually like the movie overall. It was very engaging and very colorful. I do realize that there were social and economic implications being addressed through the making of the movie, and that the movie was not merely just an expression of a historical perspective. Again, I hope no one is offended by my commentary. If the moderators wish to remove the post, as well as the appropriate section of my introductory post, then I would fully understand. I just felt a need to say this.

Thank you

--Mark Hopkins
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>Don't get me wrong: I appreciate the offer of sources, many of which I've already read, but when you do it in excess, you appear to be subtly saying, "um, you don't don't what you're talking about.<<

I'm not. I'm pretty much a what-you-see-is-what-you-get sort of guy. On the question of whether or not you know what your talking about, you need to be mindful that you just might not on a few points here and there, and you'll have plenty of company...myself included and even among some real experts as well. The problem in this case is that there is so much of the mythos ingrained in the Titanic story that it's very difficult to seperate the sensationalism from the reality. We wrestle with it all the time here. The thing about the fire in the coal bunker is an example. A lot has been made of it in recent times, but on close inspection, it a more of a red herring then anything else. An all too frequent and annoying happening on coal fired ships that really had nothing to do with the sinking.

>>Now, I know you're being helpful, but I have full comprehension about that which I discuss on this board, otherwise I wouldn't mention it.<<

Fair enough, but bear in mind that this is an open forum where anything you post is fair game for anyone who takes an interest, even if it's only feedback. I have no way of knowing what you have or have not read, so I'll continue to offer resources, and views to check out. You don't have to read them, but it's well to remember that they've been put together by people who have spent a lot of time studying the historical and technical problems.
 
Jun 12, 2004
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This gives a total of 324 First Class Passengers. 176 men; 143 women and 5 children/infant. 58 men; 139 women and 4 children/infants were saved. 118 men; 4 women and 1 child were lost. = Saved 201; Lost 123.

--Lester

Mike, what you have said is fair enough. I have been doing research for twenty years (although I still don't know everything. Who does? That keeps me going), and there is no way for you to know what I have read and what I have not. I guess I was speaking in regards to first impression of the sources being slipped my way. You can see how that may appear to a newcomer. I do not mean to be a stick-in-the-mud with anyone here, so please don't get annoyed or upset. I am just explaining myself. Now that I understand your intent with the sources (which just may be offered out of interest for further reading), I will be more understanding. A newcomer needs time to break in. ;)

Take care

--Mark
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>I have been doing research for twenty years (although I still don't know everything. Who does?<<

Welcome to the club!

I've been getting into it since I read A Night To Remember back in 1968. I thought I had a good understanding of the disaster when I first came in here 4 years ago, but I've come to understand that the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.
 

Harry Peach

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Jun 26, 2005
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I always wondered exactly the same thing, about the last scene in the movie - (well
up until I found out only 4 1st class women did die). In some reports (including several contempory books ive read say there where 11 1st class women victims (plus 1 child lorraine) these reports also claim there where 24 2nd class women victims (when we all now know there where only 12 or 13) so these are the figures James Cameron could have used in his representation - I've studied the film intensly and also in the sinking scenes theres quite a few "1st class looking" women running about onboard - I guess it just gives a more visually dramatic and inclusive effect, so people watching think "it could happen to anybody' etc.
 
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One of the first books I read (Lynch and Marschall) had the inflated casualty figures for 1st and 2nd Class Women. While I don't know what accounted for the doubling in the number of 2nd Class Women victims, I did figure out why there were originally 11 First Class women listed as perished.

In the passenger list used in Walter Lord's "A Night to Remember", many of the first class servants were not noted as survivors. One was the Cardezas valet. Also, five of the first class maids, including Berthe LeRoy and Anna Ward were erroneously listed as victims and so that accounts for five of the additional women in First Class. The last additional "female" who died in First Class was actually George Goldschmidt who was shown on Lord's list as "Mrs. Goldschmidt". So if authorities were quickly looking over these initial lists, they would logically count 11 First Class female victims.

Now, does anyone know the reason for the initial discrepency in the number of 2nd Class Women victims?
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hello Arthur,

While the US Senate says 24, the typed Passenger List that goes with that figure only seems to have 14 ladies without saved after their names. Two of those - Mesdames Hamalainen and Mellenger have saved only after "and infant/child" so there seems to be no obvious reason for the figure of 24 until you note that although both the British and Senate agree on 285 2nd Class passengers, the British have 117 W&C and 168 men; while the Senate has 128 W&C and 157 men, so I would guess that the error is with the inital count, from which the number of survivors was taken to give the number lost.
 

Kevin Perez

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Jul 10, 2005
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Forgive me for reviving a dead thread but I'm curious who were the other female ''victims'' in 1st class? I know there's just 4, but who were the other 7 that were listed as lost? Also, what were the original numbers for those lost in 2nd and 3rd class as well a crew?
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hello Kevin,

See the post by Arthur Merchant. - Two above your own post. - "11" women & children are marked on the PL in ANTR as lost. Of those 5 were lost. 4 ladies; plus Loraine Allison. As posted by Arthur the other "6" comprised: 5 ladies maids all saved plus George Goldschmidt who is listed as Mrs.

You ask for the original figures. On this web-site look under Resources: Titanic Inquiries; American Inquiry Final Report - Passengers; British Inquiry Final Report - Numbers Saved.
 

Kevin Perez

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Jul 10, 2005
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I see now! Thanks Lester, so let me see if I have this right.

First Class: 11 were listed lost, but only 4 women and 1 child died.

Second Class: 24 were listed lost, but only 12 women and no children died.

Third Class: 119 were listed lost but in actuality it was really 138 women that were lost (89 women and 49 children, correct?) and only three (out of 23) female crew members were lost as well. Adding them all up would mean 154 or were lost, IF that was the true death toll, right?

Boy, I despise math, but when it comes to Titanic, that's an exception.

;)
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hello Kevin,

In general yes.

I see you have only referreed to the Senate figures. - The British Inquiry Report would have given you: 4+13+141+3 = 161

For 3rd Class you have taken the number of W&C saved - 105 from the Number of females - 224. That has given you 119, but fails to allow for "male children" a figure which is not contained within the Senate figures.

I make the end total 158. - 5+12+138+3
 

Kevin Perez

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Jul 10, 2005
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Thanks Lester, now I'm going to give you an even MORE difficult question. Just exactly how many males and females perished? Assume the children (both the males and females) are all considered ''men and women'', how many would that be?

happy.gif
 

Kevin Perez

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Jul 10, 2005
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Adding those numbers up, I assume that if we were to add the number of females and males who perished, the number would be 130 (108 women + 22 female children) and 1368 males (1338 men + 30 male children) or am I not making any sense at all?
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Hello Kevin,

There were only 50 children lost, so I cannot work out how you have 30 male children. - Also the end total is 1,496. So males lost 1,336.
 

Kevin Perez

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Jul 10, 2005
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Thanks for clearing that up. Now finally, I can rest in peace to know the overall death toll of men/women/children....for now...
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Arthur, Kevin,

We may want to re-think who the 11 lost W&C were according to the US Senate figures, because it is from there as well as the names in the PL in ANTR that we get "11" from, and it was the Senate "11" that Kevin asked about.

Looking at the Alphabetical List, Goldschmidt is "Mr". The 11th name is Mrs Thayer.

However, when one goes to the Survivor List, Mrs Thayer and the 5 maids not marked (saved) in the Alphabetical list all appear; as does Mrs Allison; Ismay's manservant and Mrs White's manservant. - None of those 3 show as (saved) in the Alphabetical List. The Cardeza manservant [not marked as (saved) on the Alphabetical List is included. - Missing are Mr Greenfield [as (saved) on the Alphabetical List] and Mrs Straus' maid [also as (saved) on the Alphabetical List]. - There may be other errors.

But, I think when in future we refer to the "11" lost W&C from the Senate figure Mrs Thayer [not Goldschmidt] should be No "11".
 

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