Actually still on board when ship sank

Mar 18, 2008
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Can be estimated how many people were still on board the ship after she broke up?
No, it can not be said how many were on board after the break up.

Most sources say it was over 1500, since there were over 1500 deaths, but that isn't true since:
In all 1496 people died.

- of the 826 passengers & crew who made it into a lifeboat, 121 died before the Carpathia arrived.
Where did you have this one from that 826 made it into the boats and 121 of them died?

It were 712 survivors.
 

Adam Went

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It would be impossible to say how many people jumped and how many waited to be washed off - I don't think anybody was too concerned about counting them at that point in time. But, as a rough estimate, perhaps....1,300-1,400?

Cheers,
Adam.
 
Nov 13, 2014
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Let's not discuss the exact numbers. We will never know exactly how many people were on board (approx. 2200), died (1500-1525) and survived (700-715).

But there were surely more than 100 people who made it into a lifeboat, but died of hypothermia before the Carpathia arrived. Examples are Thomson Beattie, William Hoyt & Edvard Lindell. Some of these 100 even died ON the Carpathia (for example Able seaman William Lyons).

But, around 1400 people never made it into a lifeboat, and they all ended up in the water once Titanic sank. The point when the ship broke up will be the reference point. It should be possible to estimate how many of these 1400 unlucky passengers & crew were still on board at the moment she broke up.

Cheers,
Christophe
 
Mar 18, 2008
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Let's not discuss the exact numbers. We will never know exactly how many people were on board (approx. 2200), died (1500-1525) and survived (700-715).
We do know the exact numbers as all names are known! Of the 2208 people on board 712 survived and 1496 died. That is a fact!

But there were surely more than 100 people who made it into a lifeboat, but died of hypothermia before the Carpathia arrived. Examples are Thomson Beattie, William Hoyt & Edvard Lindell. Some of these 100 even died ON the Carpathia (for example Able seaman William Lyons).
You mentioned 4 names, who are the other 96 who did made it into a lifeboat and died before Carpathia arrived?

Beattie died on board collapsible boat A and his body was one of the 3 left in the boat when No. 14 rescued the 12 survivors.
Hoyt was rescued out of the water by lifeboat No. 14 when it went to search for survivors, he died in No. 14 and his body was taken on board Carpathia.
Lindell died on board collapsible A (of the roughly 25-30 who made it into that boat only 12 survived) and his body was thrown into the sea.
Lyons was most likely dead when he was taken on board Carpathia from lifeboat No. 4. (Boat No. 4 took 8 people out of the water and 2 of them died).

There were only 4 dead which were taken on board Carpathia and buried at sea later the day.
 
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Ioannis, this isn't the place to convince people you know the numbers. There are other threads for that. And if there isn't, open one and start a discussion.

This thread is about estimating how many passengers and crew were on board the ship when she broke up.
Total aboard - survivors - victims who were in a lifeboat - swimmers.
Time: 02:17 a.m.

We shouldn't divert to exact numbers, not here.
 
Mar 18, 2008
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Ioannis, this isn't the place to convince people you know the numbers. There are other threads for that. And if there isn't, open one and start a discussion.
There is no need to dissuss the numbers as it is known among researchers how many it were and had been also published.

This thread is about estimating how many passengers and crew were on board the ship when she broke up.
Total aboard - survivors - victims who were in a lifeboat - swimmers.
Time: 02:17 a.m.

We shouldn't divert to exact numbers, not here.
As already mentioned we did no know how many were on board the ship after the break up.
If you want to estimate the number please do that.

We do now how many people made it into the boats and it was YOU who was making the claim that over 800 made it into the lifeboats and over 100 died before Carpathia arrived. All I ask you is who were those over 100 who made it into the boats and died!
 
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There were roughly 10-25 people who died on board the half-submerged collapsible lifeboat A.
Roughly 30 people jumped onto the overturned collapsible B. Some of them, like David Livshin & (possibly) Jack Phillips, died before lifeboats 4 & 12 came to collect the roughly 20-25 survivors.

Lifeboat 4 picked 8 people out of the water, 2 of them died.
Lifeboat 14 picked 4 people out of the water, 1 of them died.
These were the only lifeboats who went back to pick up swimmers.

A few (less than 5) people were still alive when being collected by the Carpathia, but they died on board Carpathia.

The other ones were separated over the lifeboats.

If your number of 712 final survivors is correct (and that's the question), then at least 750 people have ever been in a lifeboat of the Titanic.

Maybe my original number of 826 initial survivors is wrong, but it's even more wrong to say that there were 1500 people on board Titanic in the final moments.

Final conclusion: I suggest that 1100 passengers & crew of Titanic were still on board at the moment of the breakup. The 1100 others were sitting in a lifeboat, swimming in the sea, or dead.

This is my final reply to this thread.
 
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There were no other deaths in other lifeboats.

Carpathia took only 4 bodies on board (2 from No. 4, 1 from No. 14, 1 from No. 12 who was taken over from No. B) no other Titanic survivor died on board.

Jack Phillips did not died on board B. You can look it up here;
The Fate of Jack Phillips

712 is not "my" number but what passenger&crew researchers found out. Captain Rostron of the Carpathia was very close to that number, he said 711.
 

Adam Went

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Ioannis, in fairness to Christophe, plenty of publications over the years have given different numbers for both how many survived and how many died. They are always around the same ballpark figure with slight variances - for instance, 705 survivors and 1,508 casualties is one i've heard fairly often. I think a lot of it comes from the uncertainty and misinformation which was spread by reports in the immediate aftermath of the sinking, and there is still some conjecture on the exact number. Anyway, not wanting to get off topic but I think we can get a bit pedantic about these sorts of things....

Cheers,
Adam.
 
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Adam, I do know that most of the publications had wrong numbers and even today many still have. I thought it would be useful for him to have the right numbers, but it seems that was not important.

Something I have never seen was his claim about the over 800 people who made it into a boat and of them over 100 died. (Having done research about the lifeboats and published it I do knew something about it.) If he feels to be under attack from me because I correct him and ask for where he got those numbers, then I am sorry. But I guess if I had made a post claiming for example "Titanic sank at 12:20 on April 16, 1915" then sure others would correct me too.
 
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LifeboatOccupancy at launching from TitanicOccupancy at arrival at Carpathia
11212
22517
34032
44030
54141
62826
72828
82825
95640
105557
117070
124342
136455
146040
157068
165652
A300
B300
C3943
D4420
Total859678
Discuss. Correct.
 
Mar 18, 2008
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Sorry to say but those numbers for the lifeboats are wrong! Where did you have them from?

The crew members in command of boats Nos. 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, C & D were all clear that no one died on board and they land all the people save on board Carpathia.
The survivors of boat A (which were 12) were rescued by No. 14. Survivors of boat B including 1 dead were rescued by No. 12 & 4.

It were 712 survivors, the names are known.
 

Adam Went

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Ioannis:

Of course, I understand that it's important to be factually accurate but sadly there is a lot of misinformation out there which has been generated over the past 103 years, and so I can understand why Christophe (and others) might be confused about exact tallies. This isn't limited to Titanic; it's VERY common for there to be a multitude of figures in most tragedies, even today.

I don't know where the 100 number came from either, perhaps it's a confusion of those who swam to Collapsible B but died before rescue? That might account for a few of them, but i'm just guessing. Personally I don't understand why there's been confusion in the first place, survivor lists were taken on the Carpathia - sadly it seems to just be sloppy historical work, but I don't blame Christophe for that.

Cheers,
Adam.
 
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If the 712 survivor number really is correct, then all the uncertainties in this table could be indicated and fixed. I'll monitor the corrections posted in this thread and regularly update this table.
This temporary table is derived from information on encyclopedia.titanica.org
LifeboatOccupancy at launching from TitanicOccupancy at arrival at Carpathia
11212
217 OR 2517 OR 25
333-4033-40
428-3253-57
535-3631-40
62425
728-2924-33
824-2624-26
935-4035-40
1036-4144-51
1155-6555-65
1229-3145-64
1354-6654-66
1442-4521-27
1566-7066-70
1637-4336-42
A30-400
B30-330
C39-4039-40
D26-3036-42
Total680-788620-735
Discuss.
 

Neboj

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Dec 5, 2014
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Number of people aboard for the final plunge

Please tell where I went astray and got it wrong. It seems logical to me:

Number of people aboard the ship
-Number of people saved
-Number of bodies taken out of the water
_______________________________________
And you get the number of people that went down with the ship except for those who were not found by the search parties and their life vests fell apart letting them sink down to the bottom of the ocean.

If you were alive, or dead from hypothermia or heart attack or taken by the currents some place else and never found, where could you be than in Titanic itself?
 

Doug Criner

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But we don't know how many victims died in the water but their bodies never found. There must have been very many.

Are you trying to estimate the number of victims that were entombed within the ship when it sank? I don't think there is anyway to know that number.
 
Apr 18, 2014
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Doug, you are right. The exact number won´t be found out that easily. What we know certain, that e.g.the complete Guarantee Group from Belfast did not survive.Wonder where they all have been when she foundered. Yes, the most vivid debate goes in my experience around the head of the Guarantee Group (Mr.Andrews), but who knows what his co-workers were doing while she was going down,too.
 

Doug Criner

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I think that natural instinct would have caused most people to proceed to the outside decks. Others, perhaps Thomas Andrews, may have resigned themselves to their fate and remained below? No way to know - sort of like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
 

Arun Vajpey

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Apr 21, 2009
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Going back to the original question, I often wonder of the people left on board the ship as it sank ie those that did not make it to any lifeboat, fall/jump into the water etc how many were inside the ship rather than on the surface? For example, the brave Engineers were still at their post till the very end and so they must have remained there as the Titanic broke-up and sank. Likewise, some survivor accounts say that there were knots of passengers deep inside Third Class areas who simply sat and prayed instead of trying to help themselves. Whether that really was the case or not, the bottom line is that there must have been several still alive as the ship sank

[Moderator's note: Two threads addressing the same question have been merged here. MAB]
 
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