Aftermath of Sept11th 2001 and Titanic


Apr 7, 2001
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Hello Michael!

Went to the site you suggested, and it does require Adobe Reader as well as it requires the 8MB download! I'll download one of those files when I have more time. But you're right, there HAS been sunken ships colliding with icebergs according to this site. Well I should have known better but I posted anyways. Since there were other ships that sunk as a result of icebergs, I wonder what THEIR Captains were doing at the time of collision. I'll have to read those links to find out I guess.

Sincerely,

Teri
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Well Teri, at least one of those captains appears to have been running drugs!

Can't recall which one it was offhand, but I think it was one of the ships that was sunk in the 90's. It caught my attention because after the crew was pulled out of the water, the Canadians arrested the lot for drug smuggling.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
Jul 11, 2001
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Looking back over a year later, another similarity comes to my mind. Complacency.(spelling?) Today we can't imagine why the Titanics crew raced a ship into ice infested waters without any fear. That is because a Titanic sized accident hadn't happened at that point. Last year, our Airline crews sat back when hi-jacked and let the terrorists fly right into those buildings. They had no reason to fear anything other than an inconvienenced ride to cuba perhaps. No precedent was set. The last flight however, did know what was in store for them. And they took action, saving the White House from destruction we think.

Yup, yet another similarity of Titanic perportions. Until the unthinkable happens, we cannot predict the outcome.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Nothing like getting sucker-punched by the unexpected. Given past experience, the crews and passengers of those jets did the right thing in co-operating with the hyjackers and playing it cool. Historical precendent was that hyjackings were carried out by terrorist groups to make some sort of political statement as well as to gain hostages to use as bartering chips. They hadn't been in the habit of using planes as air to ground missiles, so that thought never occured to anybody.

Curiously, this event seems to have backfired in a very big way. With overall survival no longer a given, passengers and crew have...instead of co-operating...been turning on the few perpetrators who have actually been stupid enough to try and blow up or commandeer aircraft. Attempts to do so since 9-11 have been few and far between and every one of them has failed.
 
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Tom Pappas

Guest
I don't think we have much to fear from hijackers any more. Anyone who even LOOKS like he's trying to get into a cockpit is going to have 20 or 30 passengers grabbing and immobilizing him. The whole question of arming aircrew is totally moot.

On the other hand, I think the threat of bombing remains very real. The terrorist they caught in Manila right after the WTC bombing had plans to blow up a dozen transoceanic flights simultaneously. Just as they didn't give up when their WTC plot was uncovered, I doubt if we've seen the last of explosives carried on board planes. I could do it myself. I have a Fujitsu laptop with two accessory compartments that accept various media (CD, Zip, FDD) and/or one or two batteries. Scenario: build the plastique into one battery compartment, and put real volts in the other. When they ask to demonstrate it, no problem. When it gets to FL380, Allahu Akbar and good night.
 
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John Meeks

Guest
There you go, Tom...and you said "I don't think we have much to fear from hijackers any more...."

Remind me to never get on a plane with anyone carrying a Fujitsu laptop!

Regards,

John M
 
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Susan Leighton

Guest
Tom,
What could possibly be your motivation for posting that scenario in this forum?

Susan Y. Leighton
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Reality perhaps Susan? For somebody with halfway decent technical training and a disire to win his 71 or so virgins in the hereafter, this wouldn't be difficult to do. Ossama and company, by way of their kamikaze mission against the Pentagon and the WTC have shown just how far they're willing to go, and you can bet we haven't heard the last of them.
 

Don Tweed

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Mar 30, 2006
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Yes, I agree.
Tom has hit hit the nail so to speak.
The availibility of tech-know-how is there!
Any hijacker from this day on is subject to total retaliation.
With all the bad that day will hold, maybe we woke up a bit?
-Don
 
Dec 2, 2000
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I'm not so sure anybody woke up Don...except to the fact that the Bad Guys are willing and able to take the war to our own soil. Beyond that, it looks to me like the politicians and talking heads are going to go back to misreading the tea leaves and the enemy the way they always have.

IOW, business as usual.

Sound familier?
 

Don Tweed

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Mar 30, 2006
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Very familiar Michael.
Those famous words from WW2, "I am afraid we have awoken a sleeping giant" come to mind.
Still, it did not take us long to return to our slumber.
And Jack Thayers' words,"It seems to me that the disaster about to occur was the event, which not only made the world rub its eyes and awake, but woke it with a start, keeping it moving at a rapidly accelerating pace ever since, with less and less peace, satisfaction and happines...To my mind the world of today awoke April 15th,1912."
We were alraedy in the accelerating pace on Sept 11th,and have resumed that role with merely a blink. Just one persons opinion, mind you.
-Don
 
Dec 2, 2000
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You're not the only one with that opinion. Seems complacancy and a short attention span is an evergreen problem with John and Jane Q. Public, at least in the western world.

You may notice that with Titanic, there were a lot of kneejerk reactions, some of which were good, and some of which were enacted into law.

Like adaquate lifeboat provisions...which has been useful on a few occassions...and shifting the shipping lanes further south to take the traffic out of harms way. If some of these new cures caused new problems (Like topweight problems with extra boats), well, them's the breaks.

And one practice that never did go away was maintaining speed and heading regardless of conditions, even low visibility. The Olympic would have an accident this way later in her life when she cut that lightship in two while running at high speed in the fog.

And trust me, it still goes on.
 
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Susan Leighton

Guest
What else would you have us do? The President told us to resume our normal activities and get on with our lives. We continue to get unsubstantiated terror alerts and warnings, but we are never told what to do. What should our reaction be? I think we SHOULD be asked to make sacrifices. The only real sacrifice average Americans seem to be facing is tighter security at the airports...and true to fashion, people are moaning and groaning about that.
Susan Y. Leighton
 
Dec 2, 2000
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I think what we should do is...quite simply...get on with our lives. Thew whole idea behind terrorism is to use terror itself as an instrument to force the targeted group/nation-state to make changes.

What Ossama Bin Laden hates is our way of life which allows us to question, to critisize, debate, agree, disagree and in general live our lives as we choose.

The best way to beat him is to live our way of life.
 

Kyrila Scully

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Apr 15, 2001
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His biggest complaint is that we force our ways on the rest of the world, yet isn't that exactly what he is doing? Judge not, lest ye be judged, and do not try to take the splinter out of your neighbor's eye when there is a log in your own - that goes for you, Osama, if you're reading this!

Kyrila Scully
(not afraid of the big bad wolf)
 
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Susan Leighton

Guest
Michael,
But what about the complacency that you mentioned and the short attention span regarding 9/11. The list of folks like Bid Laden who hate our way of life is growing, and our way of life is becoming more uncertain. Don brought up a quote from WWII that reminds me of the response that Americans had to Pearle Harbor. Many people went out the next day and joined the military...commodities were scarce and people began rationing them...they started sacrificing their comfort and their lives for freedom...for our way of life. You served your country Michael and so did I; don't you think our current standard of living in the US is a little too high? Maybe not...maybe I'm wrong...but I just think we (or they) could be in for a rude awakening if or when history repeats itself. I wish there were some action I, as an individual, or we, as Americans could do to prevent that...or at least to respond to it. I realize this is not the forum to discuss these matters and I apologize for pressing it, but this is absolutely THE most organized message board I have found on the internet. The long-standing members of this message board impress themselves with integrity, honesty, and a sincere desire for the preservation of history...attributes that are rare in a face-to-face setting ...and extraordinary in cyberspace.
Susan Y. Leighton
 
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John Meeks

Guest
Possibly this isn't the proper forum to discuss this - but...so what (sorry Phil!)?

Have given the question that Susan raised ("...don't you think our current standard of living in the US is a little too high?") some thought, and at great risk of criticism, and somewhat against arguments I might have made myself as a younger man...I answer....

NO! ...and I speak for Europe, Canada, Australasia, Japan, and so on, and so on,and so on... (How arrogant can you get? Even Hitler didn't claim....)

It is both true and very tragic that so many parts of the world do not enjoy the many (dubious, sometimes?) benefits that we do enjoy; but surely these are things to aspire to - not denigrate and destroy? And those elements of our lives that are undesirable are out there, like dirty laundry, for all to see - and avoid!

I observe every day, the "Western World" trying its damndest to assist underprivileged areas to improve their lot, and being appreciated for so doing.

But I'm damned if I accept a character like Bin Laden (a self sufficient millionaire), professing to represent an underprivileged people (per capita, Saudi Arabia, his country, is one of the wealthy nations of the world - as are several other Middle Eastern oil producing countries) as their savior from Western tyranny!

I also grow extremely tired of all nations that can't afford to feed their populations - but do just have a few dollars/euros/yen/pounds or perhaps 'club med beads' lying around in sufficient quantities to buy tanks, state-of-the-art military aircraft, and embark upon sophisticated nuclear weaponry programs!

Envy is a terrible thing - but truly, very understandable. I supppose that we have all felt it, and of course we must not engender it by unneccesarily flaunting our undoubted 'wealth'.

But I do not feel that this is really the true problem that we face in today's troubled times.

The real problem is in individuals like Bin Laden and his kind. Good old-fashioned tyrants, power hungry control freaks with an excuse (their 'cause') and an agenda (their own self agrandissement).

We even have a few of our own.....

Sorry for sounding off. I must be becoming a Capitalist in my old age!

Regards,

John M
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>The list of folks like Bid Laden who hate our way of life is growing, <<

Uh...no Susan...it isn't. The only thing that's really changed is we tend now to actually notice an element that's always been there.

>>...and our way of life is becoming more uncertain.<<

Our way of life was never certain to begin with and never will be. Yes, we're the Big Boys on the block now, but how long do you think that'll last? Ask Rome and Great Britain, both the centres of large and powerful empires that now no longer exist, and hated and reviled for one reason or another when they were the top dogs. When the USA ceases to be a superpower and somebody else takes the top slot, who do you think is going to be, by turns the most hated country in the world as well as the most respected?

What it boils down to is envy. The little fish in the pond always envy the big ones.

>>don't you think our current standard of living in the US is a little too high? <<

No...and this is irrelevant to Bin Laden anyway. It's not our standard of living which he hates. He's a billionairre for gossakes. It is as I said, those very aspects which allow us to question, to challange, and to be all we can be, and this hatred is not confined to the United States but is directed at any nation where Medievelism and all the attitutes that go with it are not the way of doing business.

As to any other points, John Meeks has pretty much covered the ground. A little too add to that however, some of the questions you put forward Susan assumes Ossama and company have much the same attitudes and think much as we do, and nothing could be further from the truth. These are very different people who's way of thinking is completely alien to the Western way of thinking.

We better come to understand that and deal with it. If we don't, we'll lose this one.
 
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Susan Leighton

Guest
You completely missed my point. I'm not disputing your views...I'm agreeing with you. I wish you could see that Michael.
You don't have to be so hostile. I am new around here and you were the first to welcome me...I don't feel so welcomed anymore. I'll leave it at that and get back to matters concerning Titanic.
Susan Y. Leighton
 

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