Alfred Nichols

Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

Member
If one reads Lightoller statements in the inquiry he is clearly concern that the lifeboats are not strong enough to take full capacity before coming water borne. Give the man credit here. So he think the next best thing is to give an order to have a gangway door open so more can enter lifeboats when becomes water borne. But he was up to his neck in loading of lifeboats and was in no position to check out if that order was carried out.
Then who gave that daft order for boats to row for ship light 4-5 miles away. I bet it wasn't Lightoller otherwise he wouldn't have given that order to open gangway door in the first place.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
I think the biggest issue in the early boats was a lack of urgency on the passengers part to get in the boats
I have always thought so. By 12:40am many passengers are likely to have realized that the damage to the Titanic was more serious than they had originally thought. The activity around lifeboats, noise from the venting steam and of course the gradual dip of the bow would have told them that. But the question was how many of them realized that the Titanic was actually sinking? The ship probably still felt safe to many - at least safer than the prospect of being on the ocean on the comparatively flimsy looking lifeboats.

IMO, there was also a bit of the Domino mentality, something that is inherent among any cross section of human beings. Once people saw others getting off in lifeboats - even partly filled ones - the waverers among those who remained decided to follow suit and it went on from there. That explains the still present reluctance when Lifeboat #3 was launched at 12:55am compared with the urgency - even an attempted rush - seen less than 30 minutes later during launching of Lifeboat #14.
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
I'll just punt this out there and it has no relevance to the open (or closed) outer door. From my reading of Titanic: The Ship Magnificent, the inner grilles were secured when the doors were open to prevent people falling out. Thus it is possible that (excluding the First Class doors) the grilles were stored secured to the overhead until needed i.e. when the doors were opened for ventilation in service. They pivoted from the top as seen in more than one photo of Titanic. Hence their absence wouldn't directly indicate that they'd been swung up prior to opening the outer door.
Just a thought.
I hope Thomas is able to clarify and expand on this issue when he reads these posts.
Roger is referring to the inner grilles of the standard gangway doors on B, C and E-deck. One of them can be seen seen in this famous photograph, which is the last known photograph of first officer William McMaster Murdoch (1873-1912, on the far right).
1674242144417
 
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Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

Member
Roger is referring to the inner grilles of the standard gangway doors on B, C and E-deck. One of them can be seen seen in this famous photograph, which is the last known photograph of first officer William McMaster Murdoch (1873-1912, on the far right).
View attachment 111369
Great photo. Do you know who are the men in the back ground?
 
Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

Member
I would agree there was delays in the reluctant of passengers getting into lifeboats and that order of women and children only. But only that smart thinking order to open gangway door and was properly carried out would of been a live safer for many.
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
Roger is referring to the inner grilles of the standard gangway doors on B, C and E-deck. One of them can be seen seen in this famous photograph, which is the last known photograph of first officer William McMaster Murdoch (1873-1912, on the far right).
Notice that 2/O Lightoller, on the left side of the photo, is wearing the uniform for a first officer. You can tell from the stripes on the sleeve. Lightoller was to have been the 1/O and Murdoch the C/O on Titanic, but Wilde came over at the last minute and took over as C/O, while Lightoller and Murdoch were moved down to 2/O and 1/O, respectively. This then led to some confusion by some crew members who referred to Lightoller as first officer Lightoller, and Murdoch as chief officer Murdoch.
 
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Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

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Great photo. Do you know who are the men in the back ground?
One of them is a seaman (with the White Star Line jumper), I hope to perhaps identify him one day.
Notice that 2/O Lightoller, on the left side of the photo, is wearing the uniform for a first officer. You can tell from the stripes on the sleeve. Lightoller was to have been the 1/O and Murdoch the C/O on Titanic, but Wilde came over at the last minute and took over as C/O, while Lightoller and Murdoch were moved down to 2/O and 1/O, respectively. This then led to some confusion by some crew members who referred to Lightoller as first officer Lightoller, and Murdoch as chief officer Murdoch.
It's a detail I've been promoting for years to get right. This is the work of a pal of mine:
1674254043022

1674254058701
 
Julian Atkins

Julian Atkins

Member
I don't find any evidence of concern with the Wellin Davits for lowering the lifeboats in any evidence I have read from both Inquiries.

If others can quote evidence of concerns at the time with the Wellin Davits I would be interested to see same. What I got from the Inquiries testimony in its totality was a lack of lifeboat drill, and an inexplicable lack of knowledge of the maximum loading capacity for loading then lowering of the lifeboats, and a complete lack of those filling the lifeboats to make sure they were properly filled in part by not getting steerage up to the boat deck.

I also don't see any evidence that Nichols was killed in the attempt to open an E deck gangway door, or even a D deck gangway door. And I have yet to see any explanation as to how a Deck gangway door was photographed as open on the wreck site with closing levers on one side missing as raised from the wreck.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
What I got from the Inquiries testimony in its totality was a lack of lifeboat drill, and an inexplicable lack of knowledge of the maximum loading capacity for loading then lowering of the lifeboats, and a complete lack of those filling the lifeboats to make sure they were properly filled in part by not getting steerage up to the boat deck.
Yes, I agree that a Lifeboat Drill would have been useful, especially for the crew handling the lifeboats themselves, falls etc. But it would be difficult to compute how much difference it could have made on that night in terms if the number of people saved.

As for "getting the steerage passengers up on the boat deck" it was easier said than done. While uncertain crew members might have tried to block some of them taking a particular route, I have never believed in nonsensical film depictions of large crowds of steerage passengers locked behind gates etc. The real problems were the proportionately fewer stewards for the Third Class passengers, the language barrier in many cases, the long and convoluted route from the lower levels to the boat deck and confusion among the passengers themselves (searching for relatives, friends etc). As I have said before, 2 hours and 40 minutes can be "long enough" or "way too short" depending on one's perspective.

I also don't see any evidence that Nichols was killed in the attempt to open an E deck gangway door, or even a D deck gangway door.
I don't think anyone contributing to this thread nor other contemporary Titanic enthusiasts now believes that Nichols or any of his men died during that Gangway Door trip. The only "evidence" (if one can call it that) for that conjecture was Lightoller's claim at the Inquiries that he never saw the boatswain again after he went off to carry the gangway door order. While that has been considered as a possibility in many earlier works, later research by the likes of Brad Payne ( Whatever Happened to Big Neck Nichols? ) showed that it was very unlikely. Apart from the fact that Nichols and his experienced seamen could not all have been killed in an attempt to open a gangway door with a flat, calm sea, occupants of Lifeboats #8 or #6 (never mind the order of their lowering ;)) would have seen and heard men in the water.

While Sam and I have a slight disagreement about the time that Nichols left on that errand and hence got back to the boat deck, I agree with him that after the boatswain returned, he was mainly active with the starboard aft lifeboats, working with Murdoch, Moody and probably McElroy. While Lifeboat #15 was in its final stages of loading - perhaps after it was lowered to the A-deck - Murdoch appears to have crossed to the port side and Lifeboat #10. IMO the others - Moody, McElroy and Nichols went forward to where Collapsible C was being readied for loading and Murdoch joined them after ordering Lifeboat #10 lowered. There are a few reports of the officers and McElroy being seen on the starboard side forward after about 01:55am; while there are no known sightings of Nichols himself after that timeframe, IMO people by then would have been more concerned about the time the ship had left and their own chances of survival rather than keep track of other individuals. Nichols might have been one of the men on the roof of the Captain's quarters working with Moody to try and free Collapsible A, no easy task with the port list.
 
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Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

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Yes, I agree that a Lifeboat Drill would have been useful, especially for the crew handling the lifeboats themselves, falls etc. But it would be difficult to compute how much difference it could have made on that night in terms if the number of people saved.
I think a full blown training session on lifeboats drills would of definitely safe many more lives. Specially has they landed up with over 460 empty seats on the boats.
Was that the officers at fault? NO. As lifeboat drills was not compulsory by law as in any training will cost the company money. They certainly did there best under difficult conditions.
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
What I got from the Inquiries testimony in its totality was a lack of lifeboat drill, and an inexplicable lack of knowledge of the maximum loading capacity for loading then lowering of the lifeboats, and a complete lack of those filling the lifeboats to make sure they were properly filled in part by not getting steerage up to the boat deck.
I agree. I also don't think there was really a concern that a boat would buckle if fully loaded. The problem was more of a concern for lowering a boat safely if fully loaded, because of the greater load on the falls in the hands of those doing the lowering. If a rope slips through the hands, one side of the boat could drop relative to the other, creating a dangerous angle, and someone could easily fallout of the fully loaded boat at that point. As it was, there was reported unevenness and lots of jerking during the lowering of several boats. The entire evacuations was made it as it happened. The greatest problem IMO is the insistence that only women and children should be sent away when a boat was less than half full and there were no other women around to put into the boat. It was a problem on the port side, not the starboard side.
 
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Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

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Sam looking in your book the starboard side the early boats are not good figures either too?
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
Sam looking in your book the starboard side the early boats are not good figures either too?
A sense of urgency was obviously not being conveyed to the passengers early on. But at least Murdoch allowed men to get in.
 
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Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

Member
I hardly think boat No 1 under Murdoch with only 12 in was a good figure!
 
Julian Atkins

Julian Atkins

Member
I am sorry that I don't know much about the Wellin Davit design, and in response to Sam's post 161 on here, I would have expected the falls to be connected to the lifeboat and then both falls cranked down (connected in unison) so as to be an even lowering of the lifeboat attached?

A manual 'playing out' of rope through pulleys each end of the lifeboat seems to me to be rather archaic for 1912?
 
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