Alfred Nichols

[Julian Atkins]

You could have filled the lifeboats if the steerage passengers had been allowed to the boat deck early on, instead of restricting it to first class ladies and children. Then later on second class. We know very well who survived and from which classes and whether male female or children.

We also know that a substantial amount of certain parts of the crew also survived.

What is utterly ridiculous to me is the thought that experienced seamen such as Nichols were sent below for some fantastical expedition that we might all agree was pointless.

As for Sam's comment that Captain Smith should have ordered lifeboats not to row for the light of another vessel that most of us agree was not 5 miles away but 12 plus miles away, it was as much bonkers to suggest to row to this light as it ever was to open any of the gangway doors as the ship was sinking.

Notwithstanding how anyone would be able to manage a swell of passengers wanting to get to partly filled lifeboats returning to Titanic.

None of this makes any sense to me, and I am yet to be persuaded of any of this.

 

[yotsuya]

You could have filled the lifeboats if the steerage passengers had been allowed to the boat deck early on, instead of restricting it to first class ladies and children. Then later on second class. We know very well who survived and from which classes and whether male female or children.

We also know that a substantial amount of certain parts of the crew also survived.

What is utterly ridiculous to me is the thought that experienced seamen such as Nichols were sent below for some fantastical expedition that we might all agree was pointless.

As for Sam's comment that Captain Smith should have ordered lifeboats not to row for the light of another vessel that most of us agree was not 5 miles away but 12 plus miles away, it was as much bonkers to suggest to row to this light as it ever was to open any of the gangway doors as the ship was sinking.

Notwithstanding how anyone would be able to manage a swell of passengers wanting to get to partly filled lifeboats returning to Titanic.

None of this makes any sense to me, and I am yet to be persuaded of any of this.

You have to research and adopt the mindset of 1912. Class distinctions were considered important. There was a genuine concern with lowering full lifeboats (be it the strength of the davits or the boat itself or the stability of the boat during lowering). Each lifeboat was to be crewed by competent seamen so that the passengers in the boat had a chance to survive. The entire fiasco of the lifeboats boils down to not being prepared for an emergency of this nature. The crew were not educated on the proper way to load a lifeboat and lower it. Was it supposed to be half full, 3/4 full, or totally full. If anything less than 100% full, how do you get more people in the lifeboats once they are lowered. Opening the gangway doors was one possibility. But that would involve directing passengers to that deck for final loading and they could only load until the door was above water. Captain Smith is quoted that he can't conceive of an disaster at sea. So there was no plan and no training. Not to mention not enough lifeboats.

So really none of this does make sense because there was no plan in place. The mindset in 1912 was that this wouldn't happen. That it couldn't happen. So they were totally unprepared for the event. When you wrap your head around the idea that they just couldn't conceive of a disaster on this scale, it all makes sense. They were making things up on the fly and were very disorganized. And the passengers were part of it. Even the passengers couldn't conceive of a disaster like this. We can look back at it with hindsight and know what should or could have been done, but you have to remember just how inconceivable this tragedy was until it actually happened. Around 450 lives were lost because the boats were not full. That still leaves 1100 lives lost because there were not enough boats.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

What is utterly ridiculous to me is the thought that experienced seamen such as Nichols were sent below for some fantastical expedition that we might all agree was pointless.

Yes, the order that Nichols received was totally ridiculous and pointless. While Lightoller admitted to giving that order (probably with Captain Smith's implied consent), we don't know if Nichols questioned the validity of that order since he did not survive to defend himself. Nichols was an experienced and sensible sailor and might have doubted the practicality of opening a gangway door; I know that Lightoller testified that when he gave the order, Nichols just said "Aye, aye sir" and left, but IMO that statement has to have a question mark over it.

You could have filled the lifeboats if the steerage passengers had been allowed to the boat deck early on, instead of restricting it to first class ladies and children. Then later on second class.

I don't believe that there was any "restriction" of loading of passengers other than "women and children first" on the starboard side and of course, "women and children only" on the port side. Considering the circumstances, the passengers were in various states of dress and undress and I doubt if the Officer in charge or any crew member stopped and checked each one's class as they came forward to board a lifeboat. It just happened that majority of the First Class passengers were berthed in the upper decks and were on the boat deck earlier than the third class ones, who had to negotiate a long and tortuous route to get there.

Also, many first class men - Astor, Thayer, Guggenheim, Widener, Ryerson, Rothschild etc did not survive, despite reports of at least some of them being seen on the boat deck fairly early on.

As for second class, I would like to remind you that the men there fared worst of all in terms of survival - worse than third class men or male crew - both numerically and proportionately.

But I agree that clearer crew and passenger instructions as well as lifeboat drills might have allowed more passengers from the lower decks to make it to the boat deck and perhaps into lifeboats. Those berthed in the lower decks would perhaps been more aware of the continued flooding and so less reluctant to board the earlier boats.

As for Sam's comment that Captain Smith should have ordered lifeboats not to row for the light of another vessel that most of us agree was not 5 miles away but 12 plus miles away, it was as much bonkers to suggest to row to this light as it ever was to open any of the gangway doors as the ship was sinking.

That, IMO was the stupidest order of them all. Apart from the fact that by then Captain Smith was aware of Andrews' prediction of how much time the Titanic had left, he should have known the physical impossibility of such a task. I believe that he was partly in a state of shock which might have affected his decision making.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

So really none of this does make sense because there was no plan in place. The mindset in 1912 was that this wouldn't happen. That it couldn't happen. So they were totally unprepared for the event. When you wrap your head around the idea that they just couldn't conceive of a disaster on this scale, it all makes sense. They were making things up on the fly and were very disorganized. And the passengers were part of it. Even the passengers couldn't conceive of a disaster like this. We can look back at it with hindsight and know what should or could have been done, but you have to remember just how inconceivable this tragedy was until it actually happened. Around 450 lives were lost because the boats were not full. That still leaves 1100 lives lost because there were not enough boats.

Agree!

 

[Samuel Halpern]

That, IMO was the stupidest order of them all. Apart from the fact that by then Captain Smith was aware of Andrews' prediction of how much time the Titanic had left, he should have known the physical impossibility of such a task.

Agree! Even if it looked as if the light was only 5 miles away, it would take a lightly loaded boat about 2 hours to reach that point. That order by Smith was heard by a number of eyewitness.

 

[Mike Spooner]

Agree! Even if it looked as if the light was only 5 miles away, it would take a lightly loaded boat about 2 hours to reach that point. That order by Smith was heard by a number of eyewitness.

Clearly a captain is not thinking straight.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Getting back to Nichols and the Gangway Door on D-deck, I would like to ask about what Thomas Krom proposed earlier - that the boatswain and his men opened that door, saw that the sea was too close and shut it again but did not do so (or were unable to do so) properly. IF that had actually happened, how would continued flooding have affected it? Thomas reckons that with the Titanic's bow continuing to dip, the D-deck doorway would have reached the sea level around 01:20am; but as far as I can picture, the interior of the ship on the other side of the door would have been still dry at that time. Since it was an outward opening door, would pressure of water on the outside kept it closed till the interior flooded? If the pressure equalized on both sides of the improperly secured door, then the impact of the bow section on the ocean floor could have blown it open.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Thomas Krom proposed earlier - that the boatswain and his men opened that door, saw that the sea was too close and shut it again but did not do so (or were unable to do so) properly.

If this was before or around the time #6 was launched, then the ship would have been still listing to starboard, and if the men were able to get it opened, it would tend to swing back into its closed position unless they somehow managed to swing it all the open. But I believe that nobody reported seeing an open gangway door on the port side from any of the boats. The door, if closed, was obviously left unlocked, otherwise it would not appear swung wide open on wreck.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Speaking about stewards referring to an officer in command of a boat as a boatswain:
HARDY: " ...We got clear of the ship and rowed out some little distance from her, and finally we all got together, about seven boats of us, and I remember quite distinctly Boatswain [sic] Lowe telling us to tie up to each other, as we would be better seen and could keep better together. Then Officer Lowe, having a full complement of passengers in his boat, distributed among us what he had, our boat taking 10. "

 

[Julian Atkins]

I would have thought that Hardy ought to have known an Officer of the watch, a bridge Officer, when compared to the 'bosun', especially given the uniform and that Hardy could identify Lowe by name and the time spent on board the Carpathia. Just a minor inconsequential error by Hardy given all the trauma and consequent PTSD?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

If this was before or around the time #6 was launched, then the ship would have been still listing to starboard, and if the men were able to get it opened, it would tend to swing back into its closed position unless they somehow managed to swing it all the open. But I believe that nobody reported seeing an open gangway door on the port side from any of the boats. The door, if closed, was obviously left unlocked, otherwise it would not appear swung wide open on wreck.

I understood that part. If there was still a slight list to starboard when Nichols and his men tried to open that port side D-deck door, they would have had considerable difficulty and so IMO they could not have managed to open it all the way. If they then inadvertently left it unlocked, it could have swung open by itself later when the ship started to list to port. By then Lifeboats #8 and #6 were likely a bit away from the Titanic and preoccupied with other things to notice; by the time Lifeboats #2 and #4 were lowered, the occupants would certainly have had other things in their minds.

Another, and IMO a stronger possibility is that although the gangway door was not properly locked by Nichols, it did not open at all during the sinking. If, as Thomas says, the sea reached the threshold of that door around 01:20am, by then the port list would have been too slight to swing to door open. Once the sea started to rise on the outer surface of the door, the water pressure would have kept it closed despite the increasing port list till very late in the sinking when internal flooding equalized the pressure on either side. The door could have then swung open unnoticed by any survivor or when the bow section impacted on the ocean floor.

 

[Julian Atkins]

I don't understand a lot of these posts on this thread.

I don't understand why Lightoller sent down a 'gang' including the 'bosun' Nichols. A 'gang'? How many ABs were ordinarily required to open a gang way door when it was abundantly clear this would create a shortage of experienced crew to man the lifeboats?

How many were required to push open a gangway door with much of it's weight taken by it's hinges? My view is not much of a push would be required to swing the door fully open even against a contrary list, and with a big shove would keep the door open.

I don't think we have yet to have a proper analysis of this open then raised from the wreck D deck gangway door with it's locks apparently completely missing on one side in Thomas's pics. When was this door raised from the wreck? How was it raised and what is the full story behind it's raising?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I don't understand why Lightoller sent down a 'gang' including the 'bosun' Nichols. A 'gang'? How many ABs were ordinarily required to open a gang way door when it was abundantly clear this would create a shortage of experienced crew to man the lifeboats?

It has already been agreed that Lightoller's order to Nichols regarding the gangway door was a risky and impractical one under the circumstances but as to why he gave it in the first place is subject to conjecture. My guess is that the unexpectedness of the situation caught the Captain and his officers off guard and as a result, they were not thinking clearly at the time. Only that can explain orders like the one Nichols received or the Captain's "row for the light and back" order to crew of Lifeboat #6.

As to the number of men that Nichols took with him below, I think Lightoller mentioned the figure '6' a couple of times during his testimonies. But that did not mean that the boatswain actually took six men with him; it might have been just 3 or 4. From Lightoller's statements it seems that at the time he gave the order - which according to him was while loading Lifeboat #6 - the potential shortage of crew that would result did not occur to him. I still believe that Lifeboat #8 had just been lowered and Lightoller thought he had sufficient crew around Lifeboat #6 (although it turned out that it was not the case) when he gave the gangway door order. That impression probably arose because Lifeboat #4 was by then out of sight on the A-deck and he might not have immediately considered the already swung out Lifeboat #2.

We have the benefit of hindsight and of over 100 years of collated statements and later analysis of the findings from the wreck which they did not.

How many were required to push open a gangway door with much of it's weight taken by it's hinges? My view is not much of a push would be required to swing the door fully open even against a contrary list, and with a big shove would keep the door open.

I think Sam Halpern or Thomas Krom would be in good positions to answer that question. I don't have my copy of BB's book here and so am not sure how much the door weighed but from the pictures that Thomas posted, it appears extremely heavy and opening outwards against a robust mechanism. Even without a contrary list IMO it would not have been a simple task of a "big shove" to open it, especially on a huge ship sinking steadily by the head in mid-ocean over 400 miles from the nearest land. Among other things, it would have been difficult for the men to obtain the required leverage while at the same time trying to avoid falling into the sea.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Up to now, we have talked only about a starboard or port list affecting opening and re-closing of the D-deck gangway door on the port side, which Thomas has concluded was operated by human hands during the sinking. But after studying the diagram below, I felt that the trim at the bow would also have had a major impact on not only Nichols' decision making when he and his men reached that door, but also their subsequent actions.

I hope that Sam does not mind borrowing his sketch from Post #99 of this thread to illustrate my point.

So if I understand it, one of the two doors on the port side of D deck forward, under where boat 6 would be, is open and the gate is raised suggesting that this was done by crewmembers.

Exactly Sam, exactly that one.

From the diagram, it appears that the door was hinged forwards and of course opened outwards. By the time Nichols and his men started to fiddle with the operating mechanism, the Titanic was about 5-degrees down by the head. So, if Nichols and his men had unlocked the door and given it a "good shove" like Julian puts it, could it have banged open all the way due to the ship being down at the head? And if that had happened. IMO it would have been almost impossible to close it again even if the port list had not yet started.

So, the question is whether Nichols realized this when they tried to open the door and so decided not to proceed but in reclosing they did not secure it properly OR whether they opened it but were then unable to close it again and left it at that. I personally think the former happened and the improperly secured door blew open when the bow section impacted against the ocean floor.

What I found interesting was that from Thomas' pictures there appears to be another gangway door only 10 or 12 feet aft of the one in question but that was hinged backwards and so would have been impossible to open against the dipping bow.

 

[Julian Atkins]

I think that part of Arun's post 194 above is something I would agree with, and I did consider the list, but didn't mention it. The problem with the hypothesis of gangway doors opening upon the final plunge or hitting the ocean floor is that (and I have not studied this at all) it would appear from what Thomas has told us that the only door that was found open on the wreck was this D deck gangway door.

I think myself it inconceivable that Nichols would have opened any gangway door, and might explain why Nichols didn't or avoided reporting back to Lightoller.

My knowledge of how a ship sinks is pretty limited, but I am not aware of Titanic taking a 'dive down' at around the time that Thomas says he expected this particular D deck door to get to sea level if unlocked.