Alice Cleaver picture or photograph


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Jeni

Guest
Why is there no picture of Alice cleaver in her biography? Is one going to be on their soon? Thank you. Jeni
 

Philip Hind

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The only pictures of her that I know about are those reproduced in "Titanic an Illustrated History", "Women and Children First" and "From Workhouse to prison..." I don't have my own copies of those pictures nor permission to reproduce them. The family with whom I have been in contact have not offered to provide an alternative picture.

Phil
 
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Katie Sharrocks

Guest
She was meant to be quite unattractive so the newspapers altered her photographs.
 
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Robin Bradford

Guest
Is there any evidence that Ms. Clever told the Allison's that she was taking Trevor to one of the lifeboats? I find it horrifying that Ms. Clever would just walk out of the adjoining rooms and to enter a lifeboat without the Allison's knowledge. I know Mr. Allison was away, and Ms. Allison was in a state of utter panic, but it seems that Ms. Clever would have stated what she had intended to do. I have read somewhere that she was eccentric and that they hired her at the last moment without checking her background. Is this correct? In any case I think that little Loraine should have been placed in one of the boats by the Allison's. That was a very sad ending to that family.
 
Aug 17, 2006
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Robin,
Yes, it is, indeed, quite sad what happened to the Allison family.

In reply to your question about Ms. Cleaver being eccentric and being hired at the last minute, it is the truth. According to "Titanic: An Illustrated History", the Allisons' trained nurse had quit a few weeks before their departure, so they hired Ms. Cleaver hastily, not knowing that 3 years earlier she had murdered her own baby son.

Mr. Allison had left his stateroom to check the ship's conditions when Ms. Cleaver left with Trevor. Also according to "Titanic: An Illustrated History", Mrs. Allison was hysterical and the children were sleeping. Ms. Cleaver began to fear for her own life, so she took Trevor, pledged never to let him out of her sight, and fled.

I hope this is of some help.

While we're on the topic of the Allisons, does anyone know the details behind Trevor's death? According to E-T, he was poisoned. Was it murder or suicide or just a mistake? Anyone know anything about it?

ADRIANNE
 

Phillip Gowan

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Apr 10, 2001
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The Allison's nurse was Alice Catherine Cleaver (later Mrs. Williams). She was not a child-murderer--but was confused with a woman named Alice Mary Cleaver who did not sail on Titanic (was in jail at the time for the murder) and would later die (in 1915) of Tuberculosis. The Allison's nurse lived to be 95 years old, dying in 1984 in Winchester, UK.

Trevor Allison died of ptomaine poisoning (accidental). He became ill in Franklin, Massachusetts and went to the home of relatives in Maine where he died.

Phillip
 
E

ED

Guest
What about the lady who years after the Titanic sank,came forward and claimed to be Loraine Allison???? Alice Cleaver must of had something to do with that if you ask me
Ed
 

Phillip Gowan

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Apr 10, 2001
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Hi Ed,
No, there is no possibility of a connection and the mention of "Mrs. Gray" is only a coincidence. The child-murderer, Alice Mary Cleaver, and the nurse Alice Catherine Cleaver, were two very distinct individuals whose paths never crossed. Since it was Alice Mary Cleaver the murderer who mentioned Mrs. Gray, the "real" Alice could not have known about it.

If you're interested there is a well-documented book now available on the two Alice Cleavers which in my opinion has laid the matter to rest once and for all. Unfortunately, the original association of the child murderer with the nurse has taken on a life of its own and will crop up forever like the mummy story.

Regards,
Phillip
 
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Jim Trebowski

Guest
Hi! I'm very interested in the Allison/Cleaver story. What is the name of the book that you mention above? By the way, I am in contact with a lady who says her Grandmother was Helen Lorraine Allison. I would like your views on this. She sent me a pic, and she is the spitting image of Hud.
 

Phillip Gowan

Member
Apr 10, 2001
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Jim,
The Cleaver book is "From Workhouse to Prison to the Titanic?"--I ordered it through one of the on-line booksellers, can't remember which.

The Helen Lorraine Allison thing keeps popping up but no one ever provides details. The girl you are speaking of has left messages on ET before and I've asked her for details about her grandmother--If she would ever provide what I've asked for I could, in short, lay the matter to rest. But curiously, she never has responded to my requests. I think hers is a story she wishes were true but would not stand up to the scrutiny of any solid investigation.

Phillip
 

Jim Kalafus

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Dec 3, 2000
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Phillip: Is that the same Lorraine Allison who claimed that she and Thomas Andrews were saved from the disaster, kept under wraps, and spirited away to begin life anew in Canada? I remember the rationale for hiding Andrews away, but don't recall why it was so important for the White Star Line to conceal Lorraine's survival. Whatever the reason, that was one bizarre tale.
 

Phillip Gowan

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Apr 10, 2001
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Honestly James, I can't remember which one she told. One story had Capt. Smith surviving and saving her.

Several times I've seen it alleged that a book is about to be published that will "tell the story." I've anxiously awaited the opportunity to see what it had to say--I intend to dissect the claims a la "The Illegitimate Daughter of Archibald Butt"--but the book never seems to materialize.

Fortunately, people who live a long time, as did Lorraine Kramer, leave many document trails to follow and in 2001 frauds are easy to expose. In this case--and others I've encountered, the descendants truly believe the tales they've been told and don't want to deal with the possibility that people they loved really lied to them. Of course, when the original tales were told, there wasn't an Internet, few or no resources existed to check facts and those telling the tales thought they could never be proven false. Not long ago I came across a "biography" of Lillian Minahan--easily disproven---a young man telling the story of his grandmother who had survived Titanic and lived to be 104. The woman in question really did have the same full maiden name as Mrs. Minahan--making it even more convenient to make the claim. Very sad for her grandson (who believed her) to have to come to the realization that everything he had been told was false. I think the old Biblical adage from the Book of Numbers says "...and be sure, thy sins shall find thee out."
 

Jim Kalafus

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So Captain Smith and Thomas Andrew survived, and were spirited away to a new life with Lorraine Allison! Seems logical enough. Of course, that would require (life long) silence on the part of every last person in the lifeboat(s) that they were saved in, PLUS the Carpathia crew and passengers AND innumerable people in the shore offices of Cunard and White Star to even stand a chance of working, but why not? Call it a hunch, but having been published already, I have a feeling that this tale is going to be around a la Anna Anderson for as long as any interest remains in Titanic, no matter how often or how well it is debunked. I WOULD like to hear why "the powers that be" thought abducting Lorraine Allison would be a good idea.
 
Apr 11, 2001
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Anna Anderson- now THERE'S a story. I was delighted that DNA triumphed in the end and those miserable bones were not royal- had always smelled a rat even though Ingrid Bergman and Helen Hayes gave a moving performance in the film version. I'll bet your would-be Pretenders fade away Phil because it is nearly impossible to fake the science these days when put to the test.
 

Jim Kalafus

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Dec 3, 2000
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Possibly- but don't forget that those people are GREAT at sidestepping the unquestionable truth when confronted with it by adding new and stupid details to the story: "Lorraine Allison's" DNA doesn't match that of Bess Allison? SIMPLE- Lorraine Allison, according to documents I found (but didn't photocopy and lost in a tragic oven fire some years back, but take my word on it they were The Real Thing) was the illegitimate daughter of Thomas Andrews and Florence Maybrick, being smuggled into the country by an unsuspecting Bess Allison, at the behest of none other than Queen Alexandra! That is why all three (Lorraine, Andrews and Smith) were so ably hidden all of those years.....and isn't it a shame that all of my evidence was lost!

Uhh...gee, I was making fun of that style of writer, and I think I just laid the groundwork for an entire inane video documentary and accompanying book.
 

Inger Sheil

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Dec 3, 2000
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Ah, Shelley - I was a romantic child, and I'd desperately hoped that Anna Anderson was a lost princess. It would have been good to believe that someone survived the bloodbath at Ekaterinburg. Peter Kurth's book on the subject was so utterly convincing, so scholarly, so apparently well researched and written! It put a big dent in my faith in conspiracy theories when the DNA tests finally demonstrated that all the "evidence" regarding Anastasia's survival came to naught.

James is right in that there will always be those who go for a romantic alternative rather than a cold truth. I'd like to think it's because they prefer to believe Lorraine Allison (and Thomas Andrews, and E J Smith) went on and lived rather than died a terrifying death. I don't think compassion is the motive in many instances, however.

I am pleased to report that although I was suckered by the Anastasia case, I never bought the idea that J Wilkes Booth survived - or Thomas Andrews.
 
Apr 11, 2001
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I bought into the Anastasia myth too until I saw an interview with an ageing Anna when she was nasty, mean, devious and positively revolting. Her imbecile and pugnacious husband was with her exhibiting her like a sideshow and glorying in his royal connection. It was appalling. Then I realized what a fraud she was and how the unsuspecting public, rolling in the notion of a spun-sugar fairytale -had been duped for so many decades. I was devastated the day Titanic was found- my dreamy notion of her lying pristine and unbroken and filled with mystery was dashed. Such is real life.
 

Jim Kalafus

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If you want to read up on the final and most irritating of the Anastasia mysteries, read Dr. William Maples great book on Forensic Identification, Dead Men Do Tell Tales, and Robert Massie's follow up to Nicholas and Alexandra. It was more or less conclusively proved that Anastasia's body was NOT recovered from the burial site (she didn't survive, however, her body and that of Alexei being buried at another as of yet undiscovered site) but an odd combination of pride on the part of the Russian doctors who misidentified the body and Romanov family politics made it imperative that "Body #6" was her, and so in the end it was.

The Anna Anderson fraud was so apparent to me even at ten years old that I could NEVER believe it....and this from a kid who believed in Borley Rectory. I used to laugh when her "interrogators" would set up a situation like this:
Q: Do you remember a time when we were 12 years old and I fell on the ice and you laughed?

Anna: Yes.

And then turn that around so that it appeared Anna Anderson supplied all of the relevant information.

Nostradamus- another "don't get me started" topic.
 

Senan Molony

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Jan 30, 2004
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I got another letter this week about someone who was spouting of on radio about being a descendant of a Titanic passenger named Marcus Breathnach. No such name in the passenger list, of course.
"Passenger lists could easily be incomplete!" is always the cry. We had someone making such claims on this message board lately.
Unfortunately, in the case of alleged survivors, such a resort is no longer the bolt-hole it might once have been. Not since NARA rediscovered the misfiled Carpathia immigration lists.
When you think about it, it is this simple:
If the Titanic was carrying unregistered, unticketed, unlisted passengers - then how come precisely NO unticketed, unregistered, unlisted passengers showed up on the Carpathia?
After all the Cunarder saved over 700! At least some of these legions of spurious passenger claimants ought to have been saved!
In years gone by, the "secretly saved" brigade would always point to the garbled wireless messages of passenger names, very often finding similar concoctions to those they desire. The rediscovered immigration lists however are crystal clear - all are listed, and all survivors previously appeared on the passenger list, although there were certainly misspellings, particularly in steerage.
Thus are frauds exposed - like the Wilhelm Muller cited in Diana Bristow's "Sinking the Myths", although he literally swam away from some obvious drawbacks by claiming he and his similarly unlisted employer managed to stay together (!) find a piece of wreckage for flotsam together (!!) and be picked up by a German tanker the next day (!!!), both of them surviving (!!!!), but nobody seeing the need to publicly exult in the amazing rescue when the ship next made port (!!!!!)

Yeah, Nostradamus - that was a bad oul' World War Three conflagration we had there in the 1990s, wasn't it?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Easley South Carolina
I thought civilisation was done for when I saw all those mushroom clouds, but then I found out the neighbors were using too much lighting fluid on thier charcoal.

So much for Nostradamas. (Shrug)

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

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